Official BBR Tier List v7

[Alacion]

Random tidbit on Zelda. There are only a few situations where she gets a guaranteed kick. One is grab release on Wario. Another is forcing the opponent to get up by landing a sourspot bair/fair while they are already on the ground. The other requires some "techskill" and the opponent must be Ivysaur's height or taller. Zelda must land a falling nair on the opposite half of the opponent, have the nair cancel on the ground, and immediately back air.

Otherwise, good Zeldas don't really consistently land lightning kicks. It's just difficult though characters with bulk like ROB's are easier to kick.

 

[bubbaking]

I dunno, there's actually some evidence for Link/Zelda being higher than they are. Well, evidence in that I think both could be higher in that their moveset doesn't seem so terrible as to have them where they are... but then on the other hand, who would take their spot? I've heard of some nice things coming from some other low tiers that make me hard pressed to decide just who should be where.

People should stop saying Bowser should be lowered on the Tier List. I admittedly know very little about Bowser. I couldn't care less about him since he's one of my +4 MUs.

It has been years since anyone did anything notable with a low tier. Riot's Zelda probably comes closest to being worth talking about.

Actually, I'd be more inclined to say that either Verm or DLA has accomplished that with Ganon. Then, of course, there's that time that Puffster (I think it was him) almost beat Nairo's MK on Brinstar.

Remember when Melee's tier list had a "negligable tier" that one time? Low tier is like that in brawl. The characters in low tier are used so little and with such little success that it isn't even worth ranking them. Any character worth ranking that is currently in low tier should probably not be low tier (Lucas or whatever).

Lolz, I was the one who brought that up last time, and I even suggested that the BBR should do the same for H+ Tier. IIRC, I was rebuffed quite soundly with several statements that it wasn't the 'right' thing to do for an 'established official organization' or something along those lines.

Btw, on the subject of Lucas.....

"Grim logic" isn't a thing, just because I believe the specific instance of Salem winning APEX was largely because his opponents sucked balls, doesn't mean you can apply that to every situation ever and call it my opinion. Because that would be stupid. Of you.

Oh really, lolz? How did the term 'Bones Logic' come about? I am actually personal friends with Bones, and I've spoken to him about the origination of the term in person. The way it's used now is never how he made his arguments, yet he has now been made infamous for all time for something he never stood behind. The moral of the story is that when you say illogical things as a major point in a single debate, it's probably going to be extrapolated elsewhere.

#SayHelloToGrimLogic
#DeviousMe
#

 

[PK Gaming]

PJ-Brown, Dark Peach's video was agreeing with you, lol.

This was a discussion that occured during the MK debates. Im not up with the SSF4 scene, but in the context of that debate calling brawl one of the worst balanced games in fighting game history is pretty innaccuate. Thats also ignoring the glaring fact that SSF4 was a rebalanced upgrade from SF4.

Also, complaining that certain characters only have a single prominent user is pretty silly. If one person is capable of achieving such results then its the standard for the meta-game, there's absolutely no reason other players are incapable of doing the same.

I can imagine...

I'm not exaggerating, i've kept up with dozens of fighting games and brawl has to have one of the worst character balance i've ever come across. Of course, this is just an opinion from nobody, but it disgusts me have bad low tier/bottom tier characters are in this game.

I can already tell from your position / post that you're an optimistic fellow, but no amount of sugarcoating will change the fact that characters like ganondorf accomplish... much of anything really. Adding to what I said before, I actually think that Ganondorf is one of the worst balanced characters of all time, in a similar level as Phoenix Wright from UMvC3, Roll from MvC2, etc. The sad part is that Ganondorf isn't even a novelty character.

That said, I still enjoy smash and nothing will change that. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a modicum of character balance in the next smash game.

 

[bubbaking]

Well yeah, but Brawl doesn't have the privilege of having a developer-run update/patch system that works to keep the balance in check. Also, other Smash games, like Melee, are arguably as imbalanced, if not more so, than Brawl.

 

[bubbaking]

Double post well over an hour.

At Rescue 2, top 5 was 3 MKs, a ZSS, and an ICs. The highest-placing low tier at the tournament was Lucas at 13th (something maybe worth talking about, actually).

I've also been saying for a really long time now that Lucas shouldn't be Low Tier. Not exactly sure how he keeps getting stuck in it along with the likes of Samus, Mario, and Bowser. He deserves to be up there with Luigi. There are even some key MUs that he does better than Ness in, such as DDD, arguably Ness' second hardest MU after Marth. Lucas also has above-Low Tier results to his name.

 

[Luco]

Soooo because you lost to a Zelda on wifi she can't possibly be the worst character in the game.


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One last thing.
In 2012 at Apex I as playing some friendlies w/ someone and M2K asked to play against me.

After a few matches he actually commented that he thinks Zelda does worse MK in the match up than Ganondorf due to her lack of options. I agreed with him.


Just some food for thought

I'd just like to point out, I mean from personal opinion (and i'm an aussie player...) she doesn't seem all so bad. You have a point but i'd argue that her Uair is actually a rather decent killing tool that kills relatively early?

I just mean... I don't think my loss on wifi means she should definitely go up, just that, currently, i don't see exactly why she is where she is. I can see why she's low tier, for sure. It just strikes me as odd that she's in that bottom 2 position. Eh.




Darn, I didn't see the full tournament from rescue 2, who was the Lucas main?

But on that subject, you know how I always say it, Lucas is one of those characters at the moment that is constantly getting results that belie his position on the tier list. This applies to Ness as well imo but that's another discussion. ^_^

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zelda's uair is very very hard to actually use, though yes it does kill incredibly early.

 

[-LzR-]

Zeldas uair is absolute garbage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I meant to reply to this earlier, but I was running late to work. Rest kinda kills... Bthrow, lolz, that doesn't kill! Fair COULD kill if you didn't stale it while racking up precious damage with it whenever you can.

Rest KOs earlier than most moves in the game, where does the kinda come from?
Bthrow doesn't KO (obviously) but it perfectly sets up for an edge-guard against a significant portion of the cast due to the angle it sends people at.
You don't need to stale fair because bair can be used for almost exactly the same thing.

Oh really, lolz? How did the term 'Bones Logic' come about? I am actually personal friends with Bones, and I've spoken to him about the origination of the term in person. The way it's used now is never how he made his arguments, yet he has now been made infamous for all time for something he never stood behind. The moral of the story is that when you say illogical things as a major point in a single debate, it's probably going to be extrapolated elsewhere.

#SayHelloToGrimLogic
#DeviousMe
#

I've never said "bones logic" in my life for that very reason... lol. It's ad hominem at best.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Rest KOs earlier than most moves in the game, where does the kinda come from?
Bthrow doesn't KO (obviously) but it perfectly sets up for an edge-guard against a significant portion of the cast due to the angle it sends people at.
You don't need to stale fair because bair can be used for almost exactly the same thing.

I would assume the "kinda" comes from the difficulty of reliably landing Rest during a match

If that's not Bubbaking's logic then I don't know where the "kinda" came from.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's more feasible than people think, by virtue of being frame 2.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Yeah I know that, but other people don't

 

[PK Gaming]

Well yeah, but Brawl doesn't have the privilege of having a developer-run update/patch system that works to keep the balance in check. Also, other Smash games, like Melee, are arguably as imbalanced, if not more so, than Brawl.

How so...? Like what are you basing this on.

SPP already established that Melee wasn't exactly the paragon of balance, but it was a heck of lot more balanced than brawl in terms... of well everything, and SSB64 had more character balance than either of them (not that i'm implying SSB64>Melee)

 

[Cassio]

I can imagine...

I'm not exaggerating, i've kept up with dozens of fighting games and brawl has to have one of the worst character balance i've ever come across. Of course, this is just an opinion from nobody, but it disgusts me have bad low tier/bottom tier characters are in this game.

I can already tell from your position / post that you're an optimistic fellow, but no amount of sugarcoating will change the fact that characters like ganondorf accomplish... much of anything really. Adding to what I said before, I actually think that Ganondorf is one of the worst balanced characters of all time, in a similar level as Phoenix Wright from UMvC3, Roll from MvC2, etc. The sad part is that Ganondorf isn't even a novelty character.

That said, I still enjoy smash and nothing will change that. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a modicum of character balance in the next smash game.

Basically, Id only accept such opinions that are backed up or from a reliable authority. Its fine to say things like ganon is the worst balanced character or that brawl is one of the worst balanced games youve come across, but it doesn't mean anything argument wise since someone can say the opposite and be just as correct. In fact as mentioned my experience from those who made arguments of imbalance during MK debates is the opposite.

In the event that you do actually go to research information, Id suggest steering away from games that patch or re-release new version of the same game. Thats a different conversation.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think it's possible to say Brawl's balance is really bad based on MK and low tier, however if you remove the game's outliers (MK and everyone from like Samus/Bowser down), the game is remarkably balanced. Brawl has one of the largest and yes, most balanced, high-and-mid tiers I've ever seen.

 

[Tesh]

Beyond MK, IC and Olimar I think the next best characters have ALOT to worry about by comparison. Those guys really just reduce the game to "what chance do you have against me though?"

 

[Aaven]

Why are you in a situation where you should have to approach?

I'm a very impatient player, and especially when I'm in a match that feels like it's dragging on. It's something I'm still working on four years later, my Marth is aggro as hell but I've toned it down over time.

Jiggs just annoys me so I try to finish the match as quickly as possible by going aggro, which is probably what contributed to me losing to Stevo's Jiggs occasionally in tourney.

 

[Neon!]

I think it's possible to say Brawl's balance is really bad based on MK and low tier, however if you remove the game's outliers (MK and everyone from like Samus/Bowser down), the game is remarkably balanced. Brawl has one of the largest and yes, most balanced, high-and-mid tiers I've ever seen.

I agree with this, two characters who I believe are evident of this are peach and rob. Both have very eccentric movesets and playstyles compared to the rest of the cast and while they both do well against IC's (both go nearly even) they only beat ganon +2. These are two of the more balanced charcters imo but they both lose terribly to mk.

 

[Tesh]

and ddd, falco, lucario, zss then they have problems like marth, snake or olimar and diddy

 

[Luco]

How so...? Like what are you basing this on.

SPP already established that Melee wasn't exactly the paragon of balance, but it was a heck of lot more balanced than brawl in terms... of well everything, and SSB64 had more character balance than either of them (not that i'm implying SSB64>Melee)

Not really wanting to start one of those debates, but we looked at this before and established that the ratio of viable characters in both games is pretty much the same (if I recall? It might have been slightly different?). And surprise surprise, when I went to the Ness melee boards, do you honestly think they tried to tell me Ness was anywhere near viable in this game? Nope.

I know it's probably not gonna earn me a whole lotta brownie points but i'd say their balance is closer than most people give credit for (excluding, as SFP pointed out, outliers). But you know, i'm just that guy from Australia so meahhh...

But I do agree that 64 is by far the most balanced game? Why? Because it's based on people's abilities to string and avoid combos. Everyone can do it to some extent, some can just... do it better than others.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think it's possible to say Brawl's balance is really bad based on MK and low tier, however if you remove the game's outliers (MK and everyone from like Samus/Bowser down), the game is remarkably balanced. Brawl has one of the largest and yes, most balanced, high-and-mid tiers I've ever seen.

interesting

i was under the impression that mid tiers were done for too

i don't want to sow discontent but are you telling me that brawl would be significantly more "balanced" without mk?

Basically, Id only accept such opinions that are backed up or from a reliable authority. Its fine to say things like ganon is the worst balanced character or that brawl is one of the worst balanced games youve come across, but it doesn't mean anything argument wise since someone can say the opposite and be just as correct. In fact as mentioned my experience from those who made arguments of imbalance during MK debates is the opposite.

In the event that you do actually go to research information, Id suggest steering away from games that patch or re-release new version of the same game. Thats a different conversation.

Fair enough.

Like I said before, i'm a relative nobody in the smash community. I'm not trying to start anything, and SPPs claim that the brawl cast is balanced without MK intrigues me. Not trolling or anything like that.

 

[Vermanubis]

My post about low tiers a few pages back still stands, I think :/

Jiggs, Bowser, Samus, and the like are so bad that any Good Player that used them has long since moved on to other characters, quit, or wasn't very active to begin with. It has been years since anyone did anything notable with a low tier. Riot's Zelda probably comes closest to being worth talking about. There are quite a few talented Falcon and Ganon players but none of them really do much with the character. There's an occasional upset, and a Ganon won an MK banned tournament in like 2010 (lol). That's all we've got.

I'm sure DLA did some notable stuff before he dropped Ganon in tournament. I dunno if it would count, but I got 5th at Northwest regional a few months ago. I only bring that up as a point of contention.

Here're two of the videos I managed to rip off of the stream, in case anybody would be interested.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMvT82QkNsM - vs. Bladewise (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b2AVcWQZZc - vs. Jamnt0ast (Snake/ROB)

 

[Dekillsage]

Brawl without MetaKnight becomes a game about Match Ups, not tiers. I would say the same about brawl with MK but the metagame revolves around him and the best way to beat him is to either play mk or top tier, so then brawl becomes a game about tiers.

No fighter is perfectly balanced. Top tiers dominate fighting games with a lot of characters but the difference is even top tiers have bad match ups, so a top tier losing to a mid/low tier isn't unheard of.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Brawl without MK would be pretty much the same, but with one or two obscure characters making the upsets until they get figured out.
At best, maybe Lucario, Toon Link and ROB could be able to do something different than before, but overall, I don't think the game would be much different.

 

[bubbaking]

It's more feasible than people think, by virtue of being frame 2.

Wow, it was actually nerfed in Brawl? That **** was frame 1 in Melee.

both go nearly even

I was under the impression that both chars at least went even with ICs and that Peach actually won. Top ICs and Peaches alike were supporting this and people were bringing in video evidence. ROB was a bit more questionable, but I believe the general consensus was that he went even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, I think rest might have been nerfed during the melee/brawl transition.

 

[Dekillsage]

Brawl without MK would be pretty much the same, but with one or two obscure characters making the upsets until they get figured out.
At best, maybe Lucario, Toon Link and ROB could be able to do something different than before, but overall, I don't think the game would be much different.

Maybe not anymore, but if MK was never in the game brawl would have probably ended up being a game of Counter Picks with more of the cast being more developed.

 

[TyponV]

Brawl without MK would just lead us to complaining about a wider variety of characters. Olimar Pikmin spam and Icies would just feel that much more annoying. Also, Toon Link would be way better in tourneys, which would be cool..

 

[Seagull Joe]

Maybe not anymore, but if MK was never in the game brawl would have probably ended up being a game of Counter Picks with more of the cast being more developed.

It's easier to fight then this.^

Brawl without MK would be pretty much the same, but with one or two obscure characters making the upsets until they get figured out.
At best, maybe Lucario, Toon Link and ROB could be able to do something different than before, but overall, I don't think the game would be much different.

It makes and severely worse since that is the main thing those two have going for them. With gone they get cp'd by their -2 matchups significantly more.

 

[pidgezero_one]

can this thread have a new title?

Official BBR Tier List v7: Where Every Night is Ladies Night! (and by ladies we mean ZSS and jigglypuff)

 

[Dekillsage]

It's easier to fight then this.^

It makes and severely worse since that is the main thing those two have going for them. With gone they get cp'd by their -2 matchups significantly more.

Fox and Wolf mains would pick up a second character to deal with their bad match ups. Like I said without MK brawl is about match ups more than tiers, but if you'd rather lose to mk's instead anyways that's fine too.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MUs basically make up the tier list which is why wolf and fox are ranked as high as they are even though they aren't really that great

 

[Dekillsage]

Tier list is made on what characters are viable in a tournament setting. In our case its based on which characters perform best in a MK infested metagame. If it was based on match ups we wouldn't have just a tier list, we'd have a match up chart that sits along side it. There's a lot to consider though when thinking about match ups. Rulesets, stage choice and port affect how match ups are played and make them better or worse but who knows whether or not these things are even really considered in discussions.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tier List doesn't only consider MK lol
The MK Matchup is obviously very important because of how the matchup weighing works, but it's much more complex than that.
Your post is technically right, but you're making it sound evil with MK and good without him, although it would be more or less the same method in both cases.

 

[Joaco]

Tier lists are potential to win a tournament, and you probably will face a MK in a tourney. It isn't based on MK, but he is a very significant character to the metagame.

 

[Tesh]

To give you an idea of how important MK is compared to other characters, of all the characters above mid tiers (the ones considered remotely viable), Salem only had to fight Metaknight and Marth to win Apex. Having a good MK matchup is so much more important than the other high tier characters that he ran into zero A tier characters, 1 B tier, and no C tiers.

When it really comes down to it, can we really measure viability oh whether or not Olimar stomps you, or Snake, or Ice Climbers if its possible to win the biggest event of the year without running into them?

Viability is almost entirely about MK.

 

[Luco]

@Dekillsage: Yes but you're giving MK more than he's due. There are far more (and I mean FAR more) MKs than any other characters out there; i've seen the popularity/usage sheets and this is undisputed. BUT there is a sizeable amount of non-MK players. The MU chart isn't quite what you're making it out to be, otherwise characters such as Ness would be much higher than they are. The BBR listed DK higher in one of their tier lists because of a lack of many DDDs at the time: If they're having characters as low as they are even if they have a half-way decent MK MU... then no, I would say the MU chart has a little more to it than you're giving it credit for.

I'm gonna apologise right now, btw. I always use Ness/Lucas as my examples when i'm trying to prove a point and for that, i'm sorry. I know i'm only at the surface and when I learn more and more about the game, i'll be bringing more and more characters in to my equation.

If it's any consolation, I used to exclusively talk about Lucas when making examples, so Ness is a bonus...?

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Tesh: I already said "The MK Matchup is obviously very important because of how the matchup weighing works, but it's much more complex than that", and that pretty much still answers your post.

You guys are just overanalizing it...

 

[Cassio]

Salem getting only MK's and Marths was considered a 'lucky' bracket, lol.

 

[Tesh]

top 8? 4 MKs 1 olimar
Top 12? 6 MKs 1 olimar 1 falco 1 ics All arguably horrible matchups for ZSS but DEHF, Dabuz and 9B were all in loser's bracket because of MK
Top 16? 8 mks Look, here is Vinnie, sent to loser's 1 round before he may have presented Salem with a bad matchup ESAM was completely on the other side of winners, that 50/50 shot maybe is lucky
Top 24? 13 Mks 3 diddy kongs
top 32? 16 mks
top 48? 21 MKs

beyond that, her worst matchups were mostly dividing by all being top seeds

when half of the top 48 is MKs, i wouldn't say running into one has anything to do with luck (good or bad)

i wouldn't say its luck, but more the fact that most non MKs wound up in loser's bracket in the first 2 rounds and he didn't. After the first couple of rounds, half the people left were metaknight users

Odds are that MK will stomp out your bad matchups. It would be far more "lucky" for a double upset to give you an easy matchup after beating an MK (like mekos running into trela after they both upset MKs). If you look at the bracket, there is opportunity for a bad matchup to run into Salem, but his bad matchups just can't make it that far.

Thats why most other matchups simply don't matter. If you can handle MK, the odds of running into anything else are slim.