Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shaya]

Dedede had a really short breath of second during a high point of snake and wario use. Crept downwards and then Wario became popular again and spiked between third and fourth. Oh how the Kings of the past have fallen to the REPUBLIC

 

[da K.I.D.]

So i assume this means that we areusing the apex ruleset as a basis for our placement? If thats the case, i would agree with Bubba and put ICs atnumber 2.

 

[infiniteV115]

I wonder if ZSS will ever get to be 2nd. I think optimistically speaking, ZSS only loses to MK Oli and Pikachu (ie I think all her other MUs that are listed as losing MUs atm are debatably even)

 

[Seagull Joe]

You mean like when Dabuz 2-0'd Larry at Apex 2013 when Larry has extensive Olimar experience against Rich Brown and there are like no Falco players worth a damn in NJ/NY except for maybe Keitaro who is still quite a bit worse than Dabuz?

That never happened because Dabuz won 2-1...Dabuz isn't an outlier. It's a -1 matchup for . Slight disadvantages are not always hard to overcome especially at the highest level of play unless the slight disadvantage is to .

People make it sound surprising when people win 45-55 or 40-60 matchups (Basically what -1 implies).

 

[Shaya]

People make it sound surprising when people win 45-55 or 40-60 matchups (Basically what -1 implies).

This is basically why Marth ever loses when he wins every match up

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ever loses?

 

[Shaya]

You're right.
He never loses.

 

[Dabuz]

I'm just gonna butt in and say Oli vs. Falco is completely even imo when Olimar farms pikmin properly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I wonder if ZSS will ever get to be 2nd. I think optimistically speaking, ZSS only loses to MK Oli and Pikachu (ie I think all her other MUs that are listed as losing MUs atm are debatably even)

The big thing that makes ZSS so hard to theorycraft with regards to match-ups is that she has stupid strong comeback power that should rarely work but does just often enough that she can win most match-ups even if they're slight losses (talking about 40% dsmash punishes and reads).

On paper ZSS should lose a few match-ups, but oops, dsmash, I'm dead or at kill percent now. Falco is a good example of this; his moveset poops all over ZSS' but he's super prone to dsmash and other really long damage strings.

Mobility is also kind of hard to theorycraft, and while ZSS isn't the "most" mobile character maybe, she's the most mobile character with any viability outside mid tier. Like, ok I'm gonna walk forward and shield, but uhh, oh, ZSS is really far away now so I'm gonna walk and shie--oops, I got hit.

 

[DeLux]

ummmm not sure what people are smoking, but all ICs have shown is that they can be second place in the Japanese Rulesset metagame and otherwise pretty mediocre in the Apex rulesset.

ICs alone is pretty bad. ICs + specific secondary / Co main is pretty strong, but even those haven't shown strong results lately lol

 

[Dekillsage]

Lolz! ONE Olimar got top 8 in Apex 2012. The rest fell short. Meanwhile, we have ESAM and Kakera at 4th and 5th, and ESAM, who went more ICs, got the higher placement. The funny thing is that I believe Apex 2012 was one of the largest reasons Olimar shot up to #2 in this tier list in the first place. Remember how the list was largely based on "Success/Popularity"? Well, that single 2nd place gave Olimar SOOO much money for just one person. Just one outlier placement gave Olimar so much support, and that's probably why this kind of data isn't having so much weight this time around. All the other Olimars fell entirely out of the money, yet both ICs were in it. Oh, and Diddy? Where the heck was he? One Diddy barely made it into top 8 and the others fell outside of it. You want him to be #2? Lolz!

As for Apex 2013, please, stop being ridiculous. ONE OLIMAR barely got into top 8. Wow, big deal! The rest of top 8 was MKs, two exceptional Marths, and Salem. 9B got 9th with solo ICs, ESAM got 13th (and I could argue that he could have done better if he'd gone more ICs like he did for APEX 2012), and NAKAT got 17th with mostly ICs, it seems, with some MK and Fox mixed in. Where are the other Olis? Hmmm, Denti got 25th. He's the ONLY Oli, other than Dabuz, who even got into the top 32 at all. The Diddys? Well, I'm sure all three of the Diddys who made it into top 32 loved chillin' together at 17th (same place as the lowest of the three ICs in top 32). Come on man, if you're gonna use these facts against me, at least check the context to make sure there isn't counter-evidence.

Btw, are you also making sure to look at other large tourneys other than APEX? I just gave those two as an example, but starting with the period of time around APEX 2012, the ICs started pulling in serious dough.

Apex 2012
That one olimar in top 8 got 2nd ****ing place. Nietono lost to Otori and Nairo (Mk,Mk) and beat illmatic, nakat, Fatal, Dehf, adhd, ally, esam and nairo.
The rest didn't fall short. Rich Brown got 9th place and Dabuz/Brood(2nd at apex 2010) got 13th.

I'm pretty sure Kakera went all Mk until he had to fight esam. Why does he count as Ice Climbers?

Apex 2013
9b got 9th with solo Ic's.... dabuz got 7th with solo olimar. Whats your point? Dabuz took out denti, beat ally,dehf, kakera etc. He barely got into top 8? He DESERVED to get into the top 8.

Olimar has done well at apex for the past 3 events. That's why I'll put him over Ic's.

 

[bubbaking]

@KID: Well, the MU discussions are using an APEX ruleset basis, and since the Tier List factors in the MU Chart heavily into its creation, it would be fair to assume that the APEX ruleset is also being used as the standard basis. Now, all we need is for the admins to actually say that it's so.

@Killsage: The point is that outliers don't mean as much from a statistical and analytical PoV. I don't necessarily agree with this mindset, but it's been the major explanation given by others as to why Pika's results aren't so good, because once ESAM is factored out, they take a huge hit. Dabuz got 7th. Two ICs got 9th and 13th. The next Olimar isn't found until you get way down to 25th. That's BELOW the 3rd ICs in the top 24. Just saying Dabuz "deserved" to get top 8 doesn't make the case that Olimar got good results. Sure, Dabuz deserved to get good results, but going by the placings of all the other Olis, he also deserves to be treated as an outlier. If he'd placed top 4 and there were some other Olis in the top 24, I might be changing my opinion of how much weight his results should hold. Contextually, they're not too meaningful other than proving, yes, Olimar deserves to be in A Tier, not B Tier. This latest APEX provided the most recent, and therefore, the most relevant results so far. The last APEX went into the previous tier list. The metagame has changed since then, and these recent results have the ICs SOLIDLY above the Olis. The ICs obviously took out top players as well, so what's your point in listing all the people that Dabuz beat? If you're in the top 32, odds are you took out some other top-level players. That's how APEX's bracket worked. It was stacked.

Edit: Btw, 2010 is irrelevant unless you're using it to prove that a certain character has been getting top placement for an extremely long time without being recognized for it (ZSS). Oli received his recognition and then the metagame changed and ICs started placing better than him. Going so far back as APEX 2010 doesn't really help your argument at all. Didn't a Falco win that?

Edit 2: But if you wanna play that game, again, at APEX 2010, only ONE Olimar even got into the top 32. Meanwhile a solo ICs got 6th and Atomsk got 7th while using a lot of ICs alongside his DDD (more than his Wario, I believe). A Lucario also got 4th and San got 9th though, among some other funny placements, so the bottom line is that APEX 2010 is really irrelevant, at least in this kind of argument.

 

[DMG]

The massive swings based off 1 tournament aren't very healthy lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, they're (inter)nationals and they're multiple high placings. Not only that, they back multiple other placings that took place throughout 2012 after APEX 2012 (which was the beginning of the ICs' major rise). It's not just one tourney. It's a multiple good placements in a mega-huge tourney, following a bunch of good placings at smaller (but still notable) tourneys, following some really decent placings at another mega-huge tourney.

The only characters we're really using this as solid proof for are ZSS, the ICs, and maybe Marth. At least, that's what I think.

Edit: Meanwhile, the Diddy's have constantly disappointed us and the Olimars have subsisted on outliers for their meager results. From a consistency standpoint, the same top ICs consistently place really high while a sole, random top Oli shoots really far every now and then, continually being let down by the rest of his top brethren who don't even make it into top 12 or top 24. Like seriously, we have 3 top ICs placing in top 24 of APEX 2013, two of which got top 16, and one of which got top 12, contesting with one single Oli who barely got top 8. That's what happened at APEX 2012 and 2010 as well; each was just with another "random top Oli".

Edit 2: Man, every time I read my posts, I sound like one of the angriest guys on the face of the planet, lolz!

 

[Naridax]

Like seriously, we have 3 top ICs placing in top 24 of APEX 2013, two of which got top 16, and one of which got top 12, contesting with one single Oli who barely got top 8. That's what happened at APEX 2012 and 2010 as well; each was just with another "random top Oli".

...one single Oli who barely got top 8. That's what happened at APEX 2012 and 2010 as well; each was just with another "random top Oli".

Getting second place at APEX 2012 and 2010 is "barely [getting] top 8"?

...each was just with another "random top Oli".

Nietono was a "random top Oli"?

lolwat?

I guess years of dominating East Japan doesn't mean anything.

 

[bubbaking]

You mistook my statement. What I meant was that Nietono was a random one of the 'top Olis', not that he was just some random Oli. As in, there's a pool of top Olis, and each Apex, one of them randomly gets really high, while the others don't get anywhere near that mark. My point is that, if Oli is so good, shouldn't a greater portion of his top player pool be placing spectactularly?

Edit: Just recognized your tag, lolz. How are ya doing? I guess you're going to ECE this weekend?

Or what do you think is the stupidest rule we currently have?
Just outta curiosity.

Well personally, I think the 'short' timer is one of the dumbest rules we have, from a metagame-shaping, competitive standpoint, because of the huge viability it gives needlessly to time-out tactics. I understand that, without it, tourneys would be nigh un-viable to hold within any form of reasonable time-span, but seriously, a whole bunch of wins from a lot of mediocre characters have consisted of time-outs that were only possible because the clock was there to be timed out in the first place. In an ideal world, I'd want 99 minute timers.

We don't have the luxury of having a committee that doesn't play the game overseeing its development.

You mean a 'Capcom-like' committee with rights to the game that releases balance patches whenever they see something's out of whack? Man, what if Smash 4 ends up like that.....

We know what the qualifications aren't though (which is being a top level player) and we know that it's a conflict of interest.

The Unity Ruleset committee was a really good start with bad direction and a dozen other problems. Ideally we'd want a panel leader who interviews for prospective members impartially and then have the ruleset made from there. As it is now, APEX staff just asks top players what they want and then everyone uses the APEX ruleset.

Oh yeah, and there's also a huge problem in the smash community: people value player skill over all other values and factors which is flawed and morally wrong. Remember that ******** video MikeHaze made attempting discredit the URC for being mid-high level players in regions he didn't think were good? What a load.

Also worth noting that I don't exclude top players for being top players, I just don't include them by default. There's a difference.

Pretty much this.

Ally didn't go solo MK at Apex 2012, wtf.

Oh, well the official results only listed him as using MK, but looking at some other sources, I see that he also used some Snake, and even some Wario, but he played primarily using MK, which makes sense. Whenever I watch him play at nationals, like Genesis II, he always seems to go MK more than anything else. The same has happened to other top users of their characters, like NAKAT, Atomsk, and Seibrik.

#Cop-Outs

Also Pwii, Dojo, Havok and Nakat are not top level MKs. Even Tyrant being top level is arguable.

You would be pretty darn hard-put to argue that Tyrant is not a top-level MK. I can understand the others, although I find many of them questionable, but definitely not Tyrant. He's pretty high up there.

I guess different people have boundaries/definitions for this kinda stuff but I define top level as anyone who can realistically win a national/international tournament. I don't see any of the 5 I mentioned as being top level, by that definition. And I think it's kinda silly to say something like "oh he's top level, but he's not winning a national any time soon. He's gonna have to step it up", don't you agree?

Actually, I disagree, although I can see where you are coming from. For any other character, this sort of argument may hold, but I honestly can't hold MK players to that sort of standard, because it is very possible that 'top MK' players aren't winning tourneys because other top MKs knock them out; there are simply so many of them. Nairo hasn't won a national for a while, but I know no one would ever throw him out of the running. In fact, I honestly can't see Zero winning a tournament any time soon (yes, he's gonna have to step it up), but no one questions his 'top MK' status.

There are just so many top MKs, with a couple who are at the top of the 'pecking order', that it is actually very conceivable that certain top MKs aren't seeing success simply because they knock each other out. Their chances of winning would probably be much greater if they were the only top MKs around or players like M2K simply didn't exist. Both Nairo and Anti are from my state and they're both regarded as top MKs, but in a 'head-to-head', I'd say that Anti doesn't really stand much of a chance winning a tournament that Nairo also happens to be in. That's just the harsh reality of it.

Also, what you said directly contradicts Kewkky's post about there being "top MKs" and "'best' MKs', which is what I was replying to. In all honesty, Kewkky's definition of top MK could just be a high-level MK for you.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't play this game anymore lol. XD Have fun reading the thread every now and the though.

Same here. I mean I play the game casually, but nothing more. Haven't been here in like two years, but hearing that ZSS won a major national piqued my interest.

 

[bubbaking]

And who would this panel leader be? How would they be determined? How would they check for impartiality?

Can't it just be an administrator?

That was one of the things that was problematic: so many people were convinced AZ had an agenda at the start. Even though that's debatable, we want someone that doesn't have an agenda. But the problem to me isn't finding someone that's not objective (this is relatively easy and there are plenty of people who will play on any stage and in any ruleset, are impartial to MK bans, and so forth), it's forcing a shift in the community's expectations that is nearly impossible. Right now, players (wrongly) want rulesets approved by top players.

Wait a second, why did AZ suddenly get brought up into this?

Atomsk was once top level, but not anymore. I don't think Coney and Vex were ever top level (maybe Vex with Bowser). Havok might have been, but it doesn't matter anymore since he quit Snake. I would say kain is top level though

Uh, have you seen the people Vex beat with DDD and G&W? He took out Takeover, P-1, and Luigi Player in bracket at APEX 2013, and he's also done extremely well at other tournaments. Dude's pretty much proven that he's a top-level player. Same goes for Coney and the people he's beaten everywhere. If you're going to be saying that Kain is a top-level player, then you should definitely include Vex and Coney.

things like hacking out tripping

I know this isn't related to the topic that your post was in the vein of, but I just thought I'd chip in and say that I'm strongly against any rule that forces someone to need to acquire anything other than what the 1st-party creator of the game has provided. In other words, hacks should never be the standard no matter how bad the game is without them. I should ONLY have to pay my $250+ to get a system, game, and controller. I shouldn't need to use a computer, buy an SD card, and/or figure out how to hack my system (thereby voiding the warranty on it) just to participate in the competitive scene of a game I paid money for. If anything needs to be changed, leave it up to the developers to release some form of patch. The only thing we can really do is create rules to encourage a fair and fun competitive environment for the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Saying that Kain, Vex and/or Coney are top level players is preposterous though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You mistook my statement. What I meant was that Nietono was a random one of the 'top Olis', not that he was just some random Oli. As in, there's a pool of top Olis, and each Apex, one of them randomly gets really high, while the others don't get anywhere near that mark. My point is that, if Oli is so good, shouldn't a greater portion of his top player pool be placing spectactularly?

Could be several things really.
One of the issues could be the bracket that they are placed. The opponents they face simply are better able to cope with Olimar A's play style and strategy better.
They can simply be much less skilled and unable to use the character well enough.

It can be a bunch of different factors, hence I was always more conservative in my judgements of a character's tier.

Well personally, I think the 'short' timer is one of the dumbest rules we have, from a metagame-shaping, competitive standpoint, because of the huge viability it gives needlessly to time-out tactics.

Tl;dr: Timeouts are stupid.

You mean a 'Capcom-like' committee with rights to the game that releases balance patches whenever they see something's out of whack? Man, what if Smash 4 ends up like that.....

I am actually scared it would be that way, since Sakurai wanted to close the gap between players with SSBB.

Imagine it now.

"Increased MetaKnights knockback and damage to make him more friendly for players to use".

"Slowed Sonic's attack and movement speed down since player's found him too hard to use."

The fact that people even feel like Apex should be the unified ruleset makes me sick.
The stage list shrinking is one of the worst things that's ever happened to the ruleset since MK-limiting rules.

I liked your name better as just Espy.

 

[Raziek]

So whos number 2 in this game? Some say ics, which is only the case in a single digit stage list environment. Some people say diddy. Hes probably the most well rounded top tier character. Some say olimar, who can function on more stage than ICs but still benefits greatly from a small stage list. A few people still sAy falco and snake but their ability to adapt to situations is based on the fact that there has to be more situations (read, stages) forthem to show their increased adaptability and viability

This leads me to them conclusions that its actually impossible to place these 5 characters correctly until we have an established (unity?) Rule set that everyone is using so that we can glean a proper understanding of all the characters and where they should be placed.

As a sidenote marth, gains a massive amount of viability from not having to deal with the multitude of situations introduced by the addition of more legal stages.

But asit stands right now, with now centralized stage list, i would give the 2 spot to diddy, because i believe he performs the best across all of the ruleset option due to being the most well rounded character in the discussion.

Shaya or CJ have probably already called you wrong on this, but Marth really doesn't suffer from a large stage list, and you're incorrect to attribute his results to a smaller one.

 

[Shaya]

Marth sucks on every stage other than battlefield and smashville.

 

[C.J.]

He doesn't suffer in a vacuum because he doesn't get directly worst. However, other charterers definitely benefit from it so he suffers indirectly in certain matchup/stage combinations.

Also, you forgot LC, Shaya

 

[Dekillsage]

Marth doesn't do well on Yoshi's?

 

[da K.I.D.]

For what its worth, zero won what i assume was a large socal tournament 2 days ago

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wtf at being borderline hard-countered by MK and beating beaten solidly by Marth and Falco. Marth and Falco are both debatably even and MK is a -1.

Same here. Wtf at people saying Diddy gets beaten by Snake and Falco. And is evenish with Marth.

Tl;dr version: only MetaKnight is top tier.

All others have equal chances to be #2 it seems. But Diddy just sticks out cause he doesn't lose to anything. Except chain grabs. But ICs aren't even too bad.

And Diddy beats characters as Pika, Marth and ZSS with at least +1. Overall people think Diddy is 'bad' cause he evens against A LOT of characters. Even lower tiers (Pit, Peach, Wolf, Sheik, Ike) which ither higher tiers easily beat. Then again, the characters he DOES have an advantage on are... More advantagous to have an advantage on.

for #2!

 

[Dekillsage]

MetaKnight being the best character. We know

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just here to say is second best.

 

[Dekillsage]

My comment was @ kid saying zero won another tournament xD

Diddy's pretty gooooooood

 

[Diddy Kong]

There's just way too bit of a skill gap between MetaKnight and Diddy, thus, it's harder to see why he's #2, cause there's a far lower gap between skill of Diddy and other characters.

should be #4 only if is #2 and is #3.

 

[ShadowLink84]

There's just way too bit of a skill gap between MetaKnight and Diddy,

I find it hard to believe the skill gap is an issue after something odd years of Brawl being out.
I chalk it more up to the community being too posh to ban the bat.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, MK kinda +1s the whole roster. Of coarse #2 and #3 are harder to decide cause of this.

Not for banning MK either. But he could require some MK-based rulesets I feel.

 

[C.J.]

"MK-based rulesets"?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah, maybe?

 

[infiniteV115]

On paper ZSS should lose a few match-ups, but oops, dsmash, I'm dead or at kill percent now. Falco is a good example of this; his moveset poops all over ZSS' but he's super prone to dsmash and other really long damage strings.

I admire your use of the word 'poop'. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I agree.
No single part of Falco's moveset 'poops all over' ZSS. The only thing that comes close is the combination of lasers + jab.

 

[bubbaking]

For what its worth, zero won what i assume was a large socal tournament 2 days ago

That's not a national, though. I could tell you that, two years ago, Coney won a large MD/VA tournament (Baltimore Brawl), but Jebus says that Coney was never a top-level player. I'm not going to contest him on this, but Coney is definitely very comparable to Kain, at the very least. Possible bias as a fellow spacee main? Also, I know this doesn't mean anything, but I just found it interesting that SSBWiki, which actually makes a distinction between "Professionals" and "Top Professionals", had Coney listed as a "Top Professional".

Ice Climbers beat diddy kong imo.(clean) Olimar diddy also looks +1 for olimar as well.

The ICs beat Olimar quite solidly, as well. You know who the ICs don't beat (other than MK, obviously)? Themselves.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I admire your use of the word 'poop'. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I agree.
No single part of Falco's moveset 'poops all over' ZSS. The only thing that comes close is the combination of lasers + jab.

Yeah, but that does ... plenty. Falco also has a pretty easy time resetting vs zss with phantasm, although ZSS players are getting really good at dealing with that

 

[ShadowLink84]

But he could require some MK-based rulesets I feel.

I consider that pretty friggin ban worthy.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Just get better and accept that MK is best in game. Sure, he should win on paper in like, every situation, but its not like hes destroying the game to the point where hes winning everything. Yes, hes doing better than every other character by a notable margin... But hes still not able to take first at everything yet, just look at Apex, hes only won 1 of the 4 tournaments.

I mean, I realize MK is by far the best, but I just dont feel a character should be banned unless hes like, Akuma or Ivan Ooze status or something where you literally can not do anything to stop him. MK CAN be stopped and this has been shown time and time again, so even if hes dominant and unarguably the best, I dont feel like he should be banned unless hes literally winning basically everything and cleaning house, which hes not.

I guess my reasoning behind being anti ban is hes not THAT dominant imo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mk actually literally can't be stopped, IDC is banned tho

I mean, MK is the definition of broken, he can stay invisible indefinitely.