Official BBR Tier List v7

[SaveMeJebus]

ICs and Diddy are even. Just watch ADHD vs 9B. If it weren't for the ice shot gimp, ADHD could have won

 

[C.J.]

ICs and Diddy are even. Just watch ADHD vs 9B. If it weren't for the ice shot gimp, ADHD could have avoided getting bodied by sopo

Probably true

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't care if you are the best player in the world, a gimp like that would mess with anyone's head

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah the first stock demonstrated enough, the rest was just adhd getting outplayed.

 

[C.J.]

"The first stock was just 9B getting outplayed, the rest demonstrated the MU."

I can make statements too!


This is a fun game.

 

[DeLux]

Yea CJ I agree
It's definitely normal for Sopo to take 2 stocks off of elite players

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No one saw that Ice shot coming. It's not something that should ever really happen again unless he puts himself in a really bad situation.

 

[DeLux]

Using Ice Shot was a pretty common gimmick around 2009 until it lost favor to ledge fall invinci Nair to cover Diddy's recovery

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm talking about sopo though. Against two climbers I could see ice shot working since aiming for the stage could mean getting CGed.

 

[C.J.]

Yea CJ I agree
It's definitely normal for Sopo to take 2 stocks off of elite players

I'm not saying they're wrong- I just tend to prefer an analysis presented alongside a statement being claimed as fact.

 

[Dekillsage]

He dtilted adhd's jump. That stock was done. Also are we going to ignore the time where vinnie double 3 stocked adhd?

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Brawl is kind of a lost cause at this point. The game is what it is, and there is no structure that would enable any sort of major shift in rules. My advice to you, and to the community in general, would be to start focusing on the next game, and create a strong and flexible infrastructure to make rules BEFORE the game is out. Have a clear cut criteria for what makes stages/characters ban worthy or not, and so on. Unless you have that ready from day 1, it's going to be very hard to get anything meaningful accomplished.

All my likes, too many likes. +1000000000

 

[infiniteV115]

He dtilted adhd's jump. That stock was done. Also are we going to ignore the time where vinnie double 3 stocked adhd?

You mean that tourney (Impact IV) where ADHD had just returned from a multi-month hiatus, then he proceeded to beat Vinnie at the next tourney (Collision V)?

 

[Dekillsage]

You mean that tourney (Impact IV) where ADHD had just returned from a multi-month hiatus, then he proceeded to beat Vinnie at the next tourney (Collision V)?

Yup. Especially with vinnie dropping cgs all day.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ADHD could have DIed the D-tilt better

 

[Dekillsage]

ADHD could have DIed the D-tilt better

Wouldn't he have died regardless though? He didn't have a jump so the second he had to Up-B he was dead.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Maybe. His best chance would be to DI up and away so ice shot could not reach his recovery

 

[Tien2500]

All my likes, too many likes. +1000000000

If you think it's a good idea, try to get it done. I'm just a lurker here This is your guy's game.

 

[swordgard]

In this thread: People who think ice block gimps on diddy are surprising.

 

[Dekillsage]

In this thread: People who think ice block gimps on diddy are surprising.

I definitively forgot about it until 9b did it at apex.

 

[infiniteV115]

I've gimped Diddies by hitting him with the butt hitbox of fair1, as well as simply tethering to the edge. Diddy sucks.

 

[Dekillsage]

I've gimped Diddies by hitting him with the butt hitbox of fair1, as well as simply tethering to the edge. Diddy sucks.

I was told diddy can't DI after getting hit during his up b. Ti's guuuud

 

[bubbaking]

I also give the edge to Diddy, then Olimar, then ICs. ICs isn't even a candidate for #2 IMO.. Olimar, though, could be #2. It's close between the two.


MK,
Diddy, Olimar, ICs,
Falco, Snake, ZSS, Marth, Pikachu

This isn't perfect (I'm not sure who comes first, Falco or Snake, or whether or not their should go in tier 2, maybe some other stuff) but it's about right IMHO. I also think Diddy is very close to Olimar, and Olimar ICs are very close, so having ICs at #4 looks weirder than it is, I guess. Second tier is very difficult atm.

So you're just going to ignore the ICs' results at both Apex 2013 AND 2012?

Edit: You were the guy who was getting uptight over people ignoring ZSS' talent, even after years of results, and I supported you on that issue, but you have to remain consistent in your ideologies. ICs have also proven that they're the second best. Their top-level player pool is arguably just as small or smaller than than Oli's, and their results at tourneys that matter (aka APEX) are consistently better.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Maybe? I dunno, maybe you're right. I watched Anti's set with 9B and it kind of cemented how I feel about ICs, that although they're strong, they're kind of one dimensional, like a Game and Watch that kills you at 0 if you mess up. If you don't, then you win.

That's not to say they aren't good, and I also said that I think of those 3 characters as being really close.

 

[bubbaking]

That's understandable, but then again, MK's the best character in the game. It's understandable for a top user of the #2 char to lose to a top user of the #1 char, especially if said #1 char wins all of his MUs. Also, even if said #2 is extremely one-dimensional, if his core strategy is so strong that it invalidates everyone, regardless of flexibility, then the lack of variation is inconsequential. It's similar to how, without anti-MK rules in place, every MK could 'one-dimensionally' aim for timeouts via planking, scrooging, and other forms of camping using a diverse selection of stages and it doesn't really matter who you are or what tools you have; you're probably losing.

I would say a similar example would be practically ALL the charge characters, barring like, Blanca, in SSF IV (before AE). They were very one-dimensional, and for the most part, they were 'turtle chars', but the mechanics of the game and the defense-favoring design made it so that they were extremely difficult to fight against. Gain a lead through footsies and then charge away. If your opponent tries to chip you, punish their attempts.

Edit: Hopefully, Smash 4 is to Brawl what AE 2012 was to SSF IV because it made the game a whole ton more interesting, both to play and spectate.

 

[infiniteV115]

MK is better than every other character at exposing ICs' one-dimensionality (ie avoiding grabs) because of his 6 jumps, disjointed dair that's safe on block when rising, and tornado.

He's the only char that can spend about 90% of the battle above ICs and win. ICs are still 2nd best, they just look pretty fraudulent when up against MK for this reason, even though it's only -1.

 

[bubbaking]

That MU could be -2 and I'd say the ICs still deserve to be #2, going by their MU spread and their placings at large tourneys. The tier list is simply a measure of competitive viability in tournament, and being below MK just means that you'll probably lose out in placements to MK in a tourney, which you probably will.

How can a character that gets borderline hardcountered by MK, that loses to ICs, Olimar, Falco, Snake and is evenish with Wario, ZSS and Marth be 2nd best?

The same logic can be applied to Olimar, IMO. Olimar is borderline 'hard-countered' by MK, loses even worse to ICs, and is solidly beaten by Marth and Falco. Then he goes even with Diddy and Wario and a whole bunch of random BL Tier chars (and NESS). The MU spread screams it. How is Olimar still #2 material? Making the stage choice either more liberal or more conservative doesn't really help his case either. He either gets shut down by MK on Delfino, Brinstar, RC, etc. in a liberal ruleset or by ICs on practically all the stages in a conservative ruleset.

The stage list shrinking is one of the worst things that's ever happened to the ruleset since MK-limiting rules.

You might as well keep going and say that MK-limiting rules is one of the worst things that's ever happened to the ruleset since MK's existence. Face it, MK caused all these problems, all the way down to the shrinking stage list.

Well, in all fairness, the best players are the second most qualified group of people to make ruleset decisions...

I wouldn't say that, speaking from a completely impartial, unbiased PoV (acquired through taking Intro to Journalism in college ). The top-level players aren't actually 'removed in interest' from the issue in question. They would be the ones most probable to benefit directly from a ruleset that favored their characters. As such, as a general rule, you should never 'trust' them to be shaping our rules. Rather, you should be trusting a fair, completely removed (not receiving 'special benefits' from the winners of tourneys) third-party group to recommend a set of rules that most TOs should follow.

However, above all else, absolutely NO TOs should ever be treated unfairly or excluded from some kind of benefit on these boards simply because he refuses to follow the recommended (key word: RECOMMENDED) ruleset. We can't be so tyrannical as to force anyone who disagrees with our reasoning to abide by our rules 'or else'. That's just not right, ethically or morally.

 

[infiniteV115]

The same logic can be applied to Olimar, IMO. Olimar is borderline 'hard-countered' by MK, loses even worse to ICs, and is solidly beaten by Marth and Falco. Then he goes even with Diddy and Wario and a whole bunch of random BL Tier chars (and NESS). The MU spread screams it. How is Olimar still #2 material? Making the stage choice either more liberal or more conservative doesn't really help his case either. He either gets shut down by MK on Delfino, Brinstar, RC, etc. in a liberal ruleset or by ICs on practically all the stages in a conservative ruleset.

Wtf at being borderline hard-countered by MK and beating beaten solidly by Marth and Falco. Marth and Falco are both debatably even and MK is a -1.

 

[Dekillsage]

Ic's proved they're the 2nd best character by not making top 8 @ apex this year.
In 2012 Kakera and Esam were the only Ic's in top 8 and Kakera went pretty much all MK.
They're not an amazing character. Olimar has gotten 2nd at apex twice and 7th this year.
Olimar >

 

[bubbaking]

Wtf at being borderline hard-countered by MK and beating beaten solidly by Marth and Falco. Marth and Falco are both debatably even and MK is a -1.

From what I understand, MK is Olimar's hardest -1 and is almost -2 material. Also, what's with that reaction? Gheb said that Diddy is "hardcountered" by MK and that MU is also a -1, and you didn't say anything. <__< I understand that a -1 isn't hard-counter material, hence why I put the term in single quotation marks (i.e. I was using the term the way Gheb used it in to respond to it). You took it too literally.

Last time I checked, Falco solidly beat Olimar because Olimar can't force Falco to approach, which is one of his greatest strengths in most of his MUs, and Phantasm. Falco out-camps him. Marth has huge disjoint to deal with Pikmin and he can also gimp Olimar better than many other chars can. They seem like quite solid -1's to me, but perhaps results contradict this.

Ic's proved they're the 2nd best character by not making top 8 @ apex this year.
In 2012 Kakera and Esam were the only Ic's in top 8 and Kakera went pretty much all MK.
They're not an amazing character. Olimar has gotten 2nd at apex twice and 7th this year.
Olimar >

Lolz! ONE Olimar got top 8 in Apex 2012. The rest fell short. Meanwhile, we have ESAM and Kakera at 4th and 5th, and ESAM, who went more ICs, got the higher placement. The funny thing is that I believe Apex 2012 was one of the largest reasons Olimar shot up to #2 in this tier list in the first place. Remember how the list was largely based on "Success/Popularity"? Well, that single 2nd place gave Olimar SOOO much money for just one person. Just one outlier placement gave Olimar so much support, and that's probably why this kind of data isn't having so much weight this time around. All the other Olimars fell entirely out of the money, yet both ICs were in it. Oh, and Diddy? Where the heck was he? One Diddy barely made it into top 8 and the others fell outside of it. You want him to be #2? Lolz!

As for Apex 2013, please, stop being ridiculous. ONE OLIMAR barely got into top 8. Wow, big deal! The rest of top 8 was MKs, two exceptional Marths, and Salem. 9B got 9th with solo ICs, ESAM got 13th (and I could argue that he could have done better if he'd gone more ICs like he did for APEX 2012), and NAKAT got 17th with mostly ICs, it seems, with some MK and Fox mixed in. Where are the other Olis? Hmmm, Denti got 25th. He's the ONLY Oli, other than Dabuz, who even got into the top 32 at all. The Diddys? Well, I'm sure all three of the Diddys who made it into top 32 loved chillin' together at 17th (same place as the lowest of the three ICs in top 32). Come on man, if you're gonna use these facts against me, at least check the context to make sure there isn't counter-evidence.

Btw, are you also making sure to look at other large tourneys other than APEX? I just gave those two as an example, but starting with the period of time around APEX 2012, the ICs started pulling in serious dough.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

If you think it's a good idea, try to get it done. I'm just a lurker here This is your guy's game.

I don't play this game anymore lol. XD Have fun reading the thread every now and the though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wtf at being borderline hard-countered by MK and beating beaten solidly by Marth and Falco. Marth and Falco are both debatably even and MK is a -1.

could be even, but time and time again, has proven to have the advantage on . I don't know if has any -2's though. If anything, his only -2 would be , but even that is doubtful from my point of view.

is definitely #3. // are number's 4-6. I do keep thinking that could be changed around with and . His results are always good from Shugo and Larry. Debatable I guess.

 

[bubbaking]

Tl; dr

 

[infiniteV115]

could be even, but time and time again, has proven to have the advantage on .

You mean like when Dabuz 2-0'd Larry at Apex 2013 when Larry has extensive Olimar experience against Rich Brown and there are like no Falco players worth a damn in NJ/NY except for maybe Keitaro who is still quite a bit worse than Dabuz?

 

[bubbaking]

Dabuz was an outlier, as shown by his Apex 2013 placement. Laughable but serious.

Edit: And he and Vinnie are huge NY powerhouses. It's hard to find players of any respectable comparison, at least on LI, where I'm from.

 

[Shaya]

Basically... Olimar was somewhere between second and third in the voting stage of the tier list, but technically was third. Tournament results and match up chart weighing in put him above Diddy, who while several felt he was better than Oli, didn't really have the +2s spread of destruction that isn't as impressive as ICs but still pretty good; then a great tournament season, culminating with Apex, but it's not like Olimar wasn't dominating/doing extremely well in tournaments throughout the country for quite a while....

 

[bubbaking]

It's too bad the ICs results didn't start coming in heavily until APEX 2012 and later. Otherwise, they would have won two of the three major factors of the tier list: better MU spread and better results (over a smaller pool of players).

Edit: I saw that edit, Shaya..... What was wrong with that second paragraph?

Edit 2: Ah, I see.

 

[Shaya]

Then post tier list ESAM and Vinnie had relatively successful seasons (along with a lot of other IC players) and people starting preaching the SECOND BEST IN THE GAME ICS, LOL, NEVER WAS ANYTHING ELSE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE TIER LIST RAGE since then. There have been multiple characters who have styled that success for a period of time throughout Brawl's history.

Snake, Dedede, Wario, Falco, Marth, Diddy, Olimar, Ice Climbers all of those characters have had stretches of being the second most "dominant" character in tournament results, some with a lot longer strangleholds than others (Snake).

 

[Lukingordex]

I'm curious to see the next Tier List.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, Dedede. He was #3 on the list at one point........ Ah, the good, ol' days...