Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

It's not the invisibility that matters, it's the invincibility XD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's not the invisibility that matters, it's the invincibility XD

Yeah, meant that. LOL

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol, k, I can agree with that.

But IDC is an exception imo, that thing is the only MK thing that should be banned. I mean, give IDC to Ganon and allow that, and hed be godlike too.

Aside from the silly IDC glitch which should be banned regardless, I feel MK is fine as is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

IDC is actually pretty tough to regulate and MK players still get away with it in tourney occasionally without anyone really noticing

 

[Dekillsage]

I would feel the same way if tournaments weren't all being dominated by this one character 95% of the time.

 

[bubbaking]

PK Gaming, if you ever see this post:

Wow, Mamoswine is yet another Pokemon that was UU back when I started playing but must have moved up into OU at some point. Also, funny stuff...
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/mamoswine/uu
As you can see, the link says "uu" at the end, but the tier displayed next to Mamo's name clearly says "OU". However, upon reading the Overview, I came across the following words:
"Mamoswine is, without question, one of the most awesome offensive forces of the UU metagame. Rotom-H, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, and Shedinja are the only Pokemon in UU that resist its STAB combination. With base 130 Attack, it has the fourth strongest Earthquake and the strongest physical Ice-type attack in the entire game! Ice and Ground are two of the best offensive types and, when combined together on a powerhouse like Mamoswine in the unprepared UU metagame, heads will roll (or be stomped in). There is nothing in the entire metagame that wants to switch into a Mamoswine."
Looks like Smogon forgot to adjust their write-up when this poke moved up. Better go alert that PK Gaming guy.

............................................................................................

Edit: Holy cow, how old is that overview that it's talking about Shedinja and Cryogonal in a UU metagame? That summary must be from even further back than when I started playing BW online. I don't remember Cryo being anything higher than solidly RU.

You should get on that.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Just get better and accept that MK is best in game.

Ima stop right here before going on.

Stupid **** like this pisses me off.
You might as well just say "hey you're a ****ing scrub, quit life."
Same substance, one is just more direct than the other.
Lets not make stupid statements like these mmkay? K

Sure, he should win on paper in like, every situation, but its not like hes destroying the game to the point where hes winning everything.

Uh...
No. On paper, he doesn't win everything. He does not even come close to "winning everything".
Winning everything would mean he -4's the entire cast.
Having an advantage does not grant an auto win.
GGXXAC's worst matchup is Pot vs Crackhead ninja (he was a drug addict sue me).
65:35.
You still see Anji's pulling off wins.

ANYWAY

Naturally, he won't win everything, not even Akuma won everything.
Ivan Ooze is a different story.

Hell, most ban worthy things never won everything.
They actually lost on occasion.
My main concern is the effect of his existence.

He is only making you edit stage lists because of him.
Create entirely new rules because of him.
Causing the ruleset in itself to be questioned because of his existence. That's...not a good thing.

Sure he isn't winning everything, but I imagine playing a videogame using your tongue and shoulder after I banned the use of your hands would make it more difficult to play too.

Akuma or Ivan Ooze status or something where you literally can not do anything to stop him.

Someone here has not played enough card games.
*eyebrow waggle*

Banworthy=/=unbeatable
No idea where people obtained such an idea.
The matter is a line of how much is too much.

MK to me is a perfectly legitimate character EXCEPT for the abilities he has which can break the game.
IDC for me is that line.
Easily exploited, cannot be monitored, and excuses can easily be made up to hide the exploit.

LGL is another issue since its pretty much geared towards MK.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You guys using IDC as an argument.

It's a glitch for ****'s sake.

 

[-LzR-]

IDC is hard to monitor? What? You'll notice immediately if MK spends extra time in his downB easily and boom DQ'd. You also have replays for proof as well. And it's not like you can accidentally IDC for 8 minutes without noticing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You guys using IDC as an argument.

It's a glitch for ****'s sake.

Your point?

IDC is hard to monitor? What?

Yeah.

You'll notice immediately if MK spends extra time in his downB easily and boom DQ'd.

I dimensional cape to the ground.
I stall it just enough to move away.
Dimensional cape takes a slight amount of time to end going from air to ground than from ground to air. That is part of why the IDC is capable of being done to begin with, there will ALWAYS be a slight delay when you land on the ground from the air.

And it's not like you can accidentally IDC for 8 minutes without noticing.

Because surely the times Jason used the IDC he did it for 8 minutes.
Seriously what is up with you people and your need to go on extreme examples?

Delay it for a few frames. Easy to abuse and easy to excuse. Which is why its difficult to report.

Anyway things ar going off topic so lets drop it here yes?


Sonic should be high tier.
Discuss.

 

[ぱみゅ]

My point is that IDC is not a factor that indicates MK is broken, or the ruleset cater around him because of the IDC.
It's a glitch, and if it would have been any other character the one to have it, the tactic would've been banned as well.

Using IDC as an argument is just stupid.

 

[-LzR-]

@ShadowLink
Using the downB for like 3 frames longer accidentally by landing is actually EDC(Extended Dimensional Cape). I think it's called IDC only when done for the purpose of stalling and for long periods of time. Both are still banned, but you do you find the ability to delay a downB by 1/4 seconds to be banworthy?

 

[bubbaking]

ummmm not sure what people are smoking, but all ICs have shown is that they can be second place in the Japanese Rulesset metagame and otherwise pretty mediocre in the Apex rulesset.

ICs alone is pretty bad. ICs + specific secondary / Co main is pretty strong, but even those haven't shown strong results lately lol

That's basically what Olimar has shown, too. All those statements can be applied to him.

Could be several things really.
One of the issues could be the bracket that they are placed. The opponents they face simply are better able to cope with Olimar A's play style and strategy better.
They can simply be much less skilled and unable to use the character well enough.

That could be possible but multiple tourneys is supposed to eliminate the problem of 'hard' or 'easy' brackets, not to mention, at something as large as APEX, the bracket tends to be stacked anyway and it's really hard to argue that 'this bracket path' was way harder than 'this other bracket path'. Along this vein of thought, double elimination is ALSO meant to eliminate that potential bracket problem.

As for being "much less skilled and unable to use the character well enough," that actually doesn't address the 'random top Oli' point at all, tbh. If every APEX, a different Olimar steps up to the plate, then they ALL should be capable of doing well and skill shouldn't really be a problem. As I understood it, Dabuz (the highest placing Olimar at APEX 2013 and the only Olimar in the top 24) wasn't even regarded by many to be the best Olimar around (didn't place nearly so well at any other national). That title went to Rich Brown. Dabuz was apparently more of a very strong regional threat, similar to Logic in MD/VA. I don't know where I'd place him on the Olimar 'pecking order' now, but that's significant.

I am actually scared it would be that way, since Sakurai wanted to close the gap between players with SSBB.

Imagine it now.

"Increased MetaKnights knockback and damage to make him more friendly for players to use".

"Slowed Sonic's attack and movement speed down since player's found him too hard to use."

Oh gosh, no. And........it's Namco. Oh no!

Tl;dr version: only MetaKnight is top tier.

All others have equal chances to be #2 it seems. But Diddy just sticks out cause he doesn't lose to anything. Except chain grabs. But ICs aren't even too bad.

And Diddy beats characters as Pika, Marth and ZSS with at least +1. Overall people think Diddy is 'bad' cause he evens against A LOT of characters. Even lower tiers (Pit, Peach, Wolf, Sheik, Ike) which ither higher tiers easily beat. Then again, the characters he DOES have an advantage on are... More advantagous to have an advantage on.

for #2!

All the non-MK Top Tiers mostly +1/-1 each other, but they all also have a notable -2 unless they're ICs, Marth, Snake, or Diddy. Out of those 4, the ICs have the best MU spread and the best results by far. Clear #2 material.

"MK-based rulesets"?

Yeah, y'know, what we have now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

My point is that IDC is not a factor that indicates MK is broken,

Of course not, being able to become invincible for an indefinite amount of time does not mean the character is not broken in ANY manner whatsoever.

or the ruleset cater around him because of the IDC.

You're right, it was only a part of what I stated.
LGL... stage lists being changed.
Did you skim?

It's a glitch,

Doesn't matter. It could be an intentional design and it still would not matter.
Whether or not something is a glitch has almost no importance.
What matters is the effect.

Snake's Utilt hitbox is a glitch but that doesn't say anything about him as a character by itself.

and if it would have been any other character the one to have it, the tactic would've been banned as well.

Irrelevant. Its still a tactic that is pretty easy to exploit and very difficult to catch.
Let alone that if the match goes above 3 minutes, assuming you don't use the hack for 3m+ replays, you're up the creek.

Though to entertain you, I'd suggest banning a character as well since again, its pretty easy to exploit and we have seen multiple times in which it has been done and not caught.

Using IDC as an argument is just stupid.

Not really, but as I said the whole discussion in itself was done long ago no?

Using the downB for like 3 frames longer accidentally by landing is actually EDC(Extended Dimensional Cape).

Its the same thing!

I think it's called IDC only when done for the purpose of stalling and for long periods of time. Both are still banned, but you do you find the ability to delay a downB by 1/4 seconds to be banworthy?

Um.
Yeah.

That is 15 frames worth of invincibility, and the distance MK can cover in that time is very significant.
The thing is?
You won't catch it during gameplay.
You can have a referee sit over your shoulder; which has happened; and STILL miss it.

Its a stupid glitch, and sying "its banned" is just lip service really.

 

[Dekillsage]

Nah son Snakes hitboxes are 100% legit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nah son Snakes hitboxes are 100% legit.

=<

You know I still believe when they did Snake's hitbox they had a totally different animation/model size for him.

 

[DMG]

I don't hold IDC against MK as far as his legality though. I do think however that it would be stupid to revisit the IDC rule, because the recent discussions have been on trying to find "fair" ways for MK to extend his cape during gameplay. Like the proposed rule (someone said Japan has it?) that MK can use IDC for 10 seconds once, and would have to get hit again before he could do it again for any extended duration. This is all stupid and frankly MK doesn't "need' our help on trying to make extended cape fair. Removing it completely (besides incidents where it extends naturally from landing to the ground) is the safest approach and does not nerf his "fair" gameplay with the move in any meaningful way.

I don't ever again want to hear about a "5 second rule" as far as IDC goes, so please leave the move and the ruling alone and move on with our lives.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I always just assumed it was banned for stalling purposes, and if the MK used it for an extra 3 or so frames for added range or something it wasnt a big deal, but I could be wrong.

I dont really know honestly, I have conflicting thoughts on the use of that move in such small circumstances... Id need to put more thought into it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

snip

No one suggested a change in ruling DMG.
Don't assume purpose its silly.

It is simply a statement as to why MK in himself is considered a controversial character, your post itself does add to why.

Personally I say we have everyone using MK has to have his voice switched with Pit's voice while he goes "NANANA!" for every single move.

I always just assumed it was banned for stalling purposes, and if the MK used it for an extra 3 or so frames for added range or something it wasnt a big deal, but I could be wrong.

I dont really know honestly, I have conflicting thoughts on the use of that move in such small circumstances... Id need to put more thought into it.

Oh it was banned from the get go when it was found.

 

[bubbaking]

Just get better and accept that MK is best in game. Sure, he should win on paper in like, every situation, but its not like hes destroying the game to the point where hes winning everything. Yes, hes doing better than every other character by a notable margin... But hes still not able to take first at everything yet, just look at Apex, hes only won 1 of the 4 tournaments.

I mean, I realize MK is by far the best, but I just dont feel a character should be banned unless hes like, Akuma or Ivan Ooze status or something where you literally can not do anything to stop him. MK CAN be stopped and this has been shown time and time again, so even if hes dominant and unarguably the best, I dont feel like he should be banned unless hes literally winning basically everything and cleaning house, which hes not.

I guess my reasoning behind being anti ban is hes not THAT dominant imo.

You forgot when M2K used to win nearly every tournament he went to? Started beating even Ally so hard that Ally was forced to go more and more MK instead of Snake until he was almost completely won over by the Dark Side. You also seem to forget how badly MK was dominating John12346's money charts, even with rules in place to 'check' him.

I mean, he's no SSF II Akuma, but this is no Street Fighter. Yeah, he only won 1 of the 4 APEX tourneys, but do you see how packed the top 4, the top 8, the top 12, the top 16, the top 24, the top 32 are with MK? Also, are you looking at OTHER nationals? Things like MLG and Genesis II, they all have MK either winning or hogging up most of the top spots.

I argue that Melee Fox and Falco are broken and I prove it with tourney results, especially recent ones, but MK has both of them beat and he's only one character. On top of that, Melee has recently brought in a stage-list that really favors spacees (only CP is Spacee Stadium) but Brawl has implemented both a stage-list and a ruleset that is meant to hinder MK and he's STILL winning most things. All these MK-centric rules are not healthy in the slightest for Brawl's metagame, which directly leads me to conclude that MK is not healthy for this game's metagame.

More reason that Brawl is a bad game that we continue to play.

 

[Dekillsage]

=<

You know I still believe when they did Snake's hitbox they had a totally different animation/model size for him.

Apparently he was supposed to be much bigger but then they made him smaller and forgot/ran out of time to change his hitboxes. It's great

 

[ぱみゅ]

Irrelevant.

What you stated as "irrelevant" is the whole point of my post.

The ruleset catering around MK does not include the IDC.

To put it in other words, banning the IDC (regardless the character that could perform it) is a no-brainer rule in order to avoid stalling. MK's legality is another different issue.

 

[bubbaking]

The fact that MK is the only character in the game (to my knowledge) who actually possesses a tech that must be banned for anti-stalling purposes is kinda significant. Haven't been keeping up with that convo, so Idk the context you guys are speaking in, but I just thought I'd throw that in.

 

[DMG]

Shadowlink: Recent talks I've seen have been about introducing a proposal like that, to give MK a bit of leniancy when using IDC and to find/allow non broken applications of the move. Some on FB, some elsewhere here on Smashboards. I'm referring to that.

Bubba: You could argue that the CG/Infinite % cap for anti stalling counts towards that, but that's more minor.

 

[bubbaking]

You're right, but even with a cap on CGs/Infinites, at the end of the 'cap', you're rewarded with a taken stock. IDC generally does nothing of the sort. It's just really meant for stalling and/or avoiding moves. So you're right, but as you said, "that's more minor."

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's minor because characters and the infinites simply aren't as controversial as MK.
Everything MK do is something people can use against him.

 

[bubbaking]

IDC is actually pretty tough to regulate and MK players still get away with it in tourney occasionally without anyone really noticing

Heck, even WITH people noticing it doesn't get DQ'd. Anyone else remember that large tourney recently where M2K IDC'd on Halberd on stream during the last 15 or so seconds, but nobody cared enough to call him out on it? Even the commentator said, "That was a blatant use of Infinte Dimensional Cape." I know he was losing, but still, we gotta have standards...

 

[infiniteV115]

If he won that game they probably would have just given the win to the japanese since it was an illegal move. The difference is that the TOs knew that M2K was in a 1v2 against two of Japan's best (and most solid) players and that if Japan won that game (which had about a 99% chance of happening) then that would have been the end of GFs. There's no point in DQing somebody for breaking the rules when they lost anyway XD

It would have been a total buzzkill to cut the match short when you're in game 5 of dubs between Japan and NA at the biggest Brawl tournament in world history, just because M2K decided to extend his DC for about half a second. -_-

 

[ShadowLink84]

What you stated as "irrelevant" is the whole point of my post.

The ruleset catering around MK does not include the IDC.

"Even thouhg we have banned the tech a character uses, itdoes not meanw e have altered the ruleset in regards to the character."

Did you honestly just try to say such a thing?

To put it in other words, banning the IDC (regardless the character that could perform it) is a no-brainer rule in order to avoid stalling. MK's legality is another different issue.

Not really considering the ability is a part of his tools and as I pointed out, is a rule that is impossible to properly enforce due to the nature of the ability.

It's minor because characters and the infinites simply aren't as controversial as MK.
Everything MK do is something people can use against him.

Infinites have always been controversial regardless of the character that uses it.
The dimensional caped is a bugged ability, and it is attached to MK.
Thusly, MK is a bugged character, the controversies surrounding him are on more than JUST IDC but it does add to it.


@infinite: He should have been DQ'ed on the spot. One thing I dislike is the Smash community is just too bloody nice at times.
Oh its M2K and we like him!
Things like that

 

[bubbaking]

If he won that game they probably would have just given the win to the japanese since it was an illegal move. The difference is that the TOs knew that M2K was in a 1v2 against two of Japan's best (and most solid) players and that if Japan won that game (which had about a 99% chance of happening) then that would have been the end of GFs. There's no point in DQing somebody for breaking the rules when they lost anyway XD

It would have been a total buzzkill to cut the match short when you're in game 5 of dubs between Japan and NA at the biggest Brawl tournament in world history, just because M2K decided to extend his DC for about half a second. -_-

You know it's ethically and morally wrong to let a match continue after witnessing a blatant breach of the rules and then give out a verdict based on said cheating afterwards, right? If you see something wrong, call it out immediately. If you have no issue with it, don't suddenly take issue with it when you see that your 'bad call' actually may have influenced the outcome of the match. The difference between respectable TOs and 'bad' TOs is that a respectable one will make the call he feels is appropriate (even if it's not exactly the right or popular one) immediately when the occassion that calls for it arises, not after when hindsight makes things feel more.......guilty.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Does Bubba mention John12346 in every single one of his posts?

 

[B0NK]

Worth mentioning, he's an awesome guy.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Does Bubba mention John12346 in every single one of his posts?

John numbers is awesome.

 

[bubbaking]

I refer to him when I mention something that I've seen him do or that I've talked with him about. Similar to how I usually mention Fatal when I'm talking about some things in DDD:Snake or other players when I'm talking about other things. It just so happens that John and I went to the same university, we're close friends, and we met (and played) nearly every day in Brawl, Melee, Project M, Brawl Minus, SSF IV:AE, UMvC3, Mario Party, and a whole plethora of other games. We also talk almost all the time on Skype, AIM, what have you.

Don't try to turn heads to something irrelevant, Raptor. Also, yes, John12346 is a pretty awesome guy.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

@infinite: He should have been DQ'ed on the spot. One thing I dislike is the Smash community is just too bloody nice at times.
Oh its M2K and we like him!
Things like that

"DQ him from the event that was over less than a minute later"

10/10 logic.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Worth considering: this dumb conversation could have been entirely avoided if MK was rightfully banned

 

[infiniteV115]

You know it's ethically and morally wrong to let a match continue after witnessing a blatant breach of the rules and then give out a verdict based on said cheating afterwards, right? If you see something wrong, call it out immediately. If you have no issue with it, don't suddenly take issue with it when you see that your 'bad call' actually may have influenced the outcome of the match. The difference between respectable TOs and 'bad' TOs is that a respectable one will make the call he feels is appropriate (even if it's not exactly the right or popular one) immediately when the occassion that calls for it arises, not after when hindsight makes things feel more.......guilty.

A respectable TO will make the call he feels is appropriate, even it's not the right one? wut

Ethics and morals are completely useless when they have no effect on reality.
In other words, ethics and morals are completely useless when they are completely useless. -_-

This isn't that hard to understand dude. There's no point in DQing somebody for breaking the rules if they lost anyway. The whole point of DQing is to prevent faulty/unfair/cheap victories. You DQ people if they break a rule and win the same game in which they broke a rule. I can't believe I'm actually explaining this right now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

"DQ him from the event that was over less than a minute later"

10/10 logic.

Its called standards, should try them sometime.
You do something illegal, you get a DQ.
Less **** riding.

 

[B0NK]

Worth considering: this dumb conversation could have been entirely avoided if MK was rightfully banned

Too bad that's all just a dream now ;_;

 

[ShadowLink84]

The whole point of DQing is to prevent faulty/unfair/cheap victories. You DQ people if they break a rule and win the same game in which they broke a rule. I can't believe I'm actually explaining this right now.

Um...no.

Someone does something illegal, they are DQ'ed on the spot.
No johns,