Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luco]

Yea, the more I dig it up, the less embarrassed I become.

That's probably not a good thing. >.>

 

[infiniteV115]

I remember when I first joined SWF (this was like...6 months before my first tournament lol)
I was arguing with other randoms in the tier list thread (probably tier list v5) saying that Snake should be lower on the tier list, that Diddy and Marth were better than Snake and that ZSS was underrated and should be top 5 in the game.

And then Nick Riddle posted saying something like
"Infinite, saying that you play ZSS over and over again doesn't do anything. Just throwing it out there.
Also, ZSS isn't top 5. Top 10 maybe.
DDD should be mid tier.
Pikachu is top 5 in the game. I would know, I live in the same house as ESAM"

Now NR calls me V115 and loves me and I'm better than him and stuff

 

[Luco]

O I never realised you only joined 3 months before I did! :O :O :O

 

[bubbaking]

I think "Lurk moar" is one of the dumbest retorts an old forum frequenter can make to a first-time poster. He's obviously saying what he is because he doesn't lurk and hasn't had a chance to pick up the common knowledge yet. If anything, just don't reply. Of course, stuff like this happens sometimes whenever one tries to help a newer player out. It's pretty ********.

Edit: Can someone tell me why ESAM is ranked 0th on both the Florida and NorCal PR's?

 

[Luco]

I think "Lurk moar" is one of the dumbest retorts an old forum frequenter can make to a first-time poster. He's obviously saying what he is because he doesn't lurk and hasn't had a chance to pick up the common knowledge yet. If anything, just don't reply. Of course, stuff like this happens sometimes whenever one tries to help a newer player out. It's pretty ********.

Edit: Can someone tell me why ESAM is ranked 0th on both the Florida and NorCal PR's?

Hm? I think not replying is just as bad though. I mean, if no-one had responded to my posts which they probably thought were silly, I never would have learnt and become a better poster. Also what happened in that case shouldn't happen, ever. If smashboards wants to pride itself on its community, it's going to have to make the effort. So I think you were in the right for going to the trouble of responding.

New posters are new, they're gonna make those mistakes, it's just not helpful when people flame them for it, you know what I mean?

 

[Iota]

ESAM is ranked 0th in Florida and North Carolina not FL/NorCal lol. It's probably because he's marginally better than everyone in both regions.

 

[bubbaking]

So why couldn't they just rank him 1st?

Also what happened in that case shouldn't happen, ever. If smashboards wants to pride itself on its community, it's going to have to make the effort. So I think you were in the right for going to the trouble of responding.

Not that I disagree with you, but it's KK (I will not be namesearch bait). His word is law. Whatever he says, everyone's gonna agree with, even if it's wrong. Just so you know, the Super Moderator in charge of that section (and all of SWF, obviously) didn't see anything wrong with what happened and even agreed with KK. Top players are the ****, you know. If they don't like something, people can't disagree with them.

 

[Luco]

Some top players? I know there are definitely some who's opinions are very controversial, thinking Vinnie and Mekos here, among others.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lol, ESAM had one of the most controversial opinions ever. For the longest time, he said Pika/MK was even. Now he admits to it being in MK's favor, if only slightly.

Then there's M2K, who has had some of the craziest random theories about random characters ever.

 

[Luco]

Lol, ESAM had one of the most controversial opinions ever. For the longest time, he said Pika/MK was even. Now he admits to it being in MK's favor, if only slightly.

Then there's M2K, who has had some of the craziest random theories about random characters ever.

Oh yea I remember watching on stream when people were talking about how he was saying it was like 0.5 MKs favour haha.

 

[Ayce God]

Exactly the post that came after one of my first posts:

Warning: You're not gonna like this, it was pretty horrendously silly

HAHAHA this made my night. I love casual players. I'm glad to see you're still playing and know what utilt is

 

[Luco]

Yeah, it was tough though. I was actually offended by a lot of people's reactions towards what I used to say, I almost left smashboards for good.

More or less glad I didn't, though.

 

[DMG]

Long time ago, but ESAM said Pika was 3rd best character after MK IC's

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't remember that. I'm pretty sure he said Pikachu was the 3rd best after MK Diddy (this was a long time ago)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've found some new Jigglypuff stuff guys she is super good now just wait

Is ADHD entering Apex? I'd love to see Diddy become popular again

 

[DMG]

I don't remember that. I'm pretty sure he said Pikachu was the 3rd best after MK Diddy (this was a long time ago)

Maybe it was Diddy but I was pretty certain it was IC's. Either way, Pika 3rd is the takeaway lol

 

[bubbaking]

Hey Shaya (hopefully you namesearch this), or whatever mods are available, we at the DDD boards need you to sticky our frame-data thread. Tbh, EVERY char board should be getting their framedata/hitbox threads stickied, but we DDDs would really appreciate it if someone could do that for us soon.

Some top players? I know there are definitely some who's opinions are very controversial, thinking Vinnie and Mekos here, among others.

Yeah, but are their opinions held in such high regard that no one is allowed to disagree with them? If anything, that is one thing that I really don't like about the Melee community. They kinda get high-strung and all that...

Lol, ESAM had one of the most controversial opinions ever. For the longest time, he said Pika/MK was even. Now he admits to it being in MK's favor, if only slightly.

Yeah, but somehow that ended up on our official MU chart, so someone must have seen some weight in what he was saying. Tbh, I can actually understand the reasoning behind an 'even-ish' MU. I've also seen some matches that suggested such a thing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You need to message the mod for the D3 boards, who I believe is Aerodrome.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Esam used to say after and , was the 3rd best character. Now that we have more s and I think he doesn't believe that anymore. I think the highest could ever be would be 7th under .

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pikachu is really good though, but also super hard to use all his stuff fully

 

[Espy Rose]

Which means he isn't really good.

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu is the most underdeveloped character in top-tier by a decent margin. Its mostly because a lot of important MU's dont get played frequently enough at the right level of play.

 

[Espy Rose]

He's underdeveloped because as far as being a top tier character is concerned, he's bad.

 

[Naridax]

So being hard to use means bad? Wow.

 

[Delta-cod]

Let's imagine a world where DDD could infinite Yoshi with his Dthrow. Then, DDD would destroy Yoshi, no? The infinite would be super good!

Oh wait, it's super hard to do and thus nobody does it. So its use is irrelevant, and has no water when considering DDD against Yoshi.

Same thing applies. If Pika is "really good" but nobody can do the stuff that makes him really good, then he's just not that good.

 

[Cassio]

Espy I wouldnt agree since many other mid and low tier characters are more developed character's than Pikachu as well. He simply has a lot of annoying nuances that would allow further development but arent worth dealing with for the typical player. i.e. he has low range but has many disjointed attacks, something extremly unusual to deal with. Typically you will see long range but no disjoints, long range with disjoints, or low range and no disjoints. I actually cant think of another character off the top of my head with low range but several disjointed attacks.

 

[Espy Rose]

So being hard to use means bad? Wow.

Well, if you want to trivialize it to just black and white, then yes.

 

[Naridax]

Pikachu is really good though, but also super hard to use all his stuff fully

Which means he isn't really good.

What I got from these posts:

da K.I.D.: Pikachu is good but hard to use.

Espy: That means he's bad.

Seems like you were the one that trivialized it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Well, it really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

 

[taywonks]

3th post <3
wow this list is good

Marc I would like those whrite-ups about the movements

3th.........

 

[infiniteV115]

It's funny cause it was actually the 4th post

Wait. Did you seriously just quote a post from the 1st page?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

V don't you know that quoting posts from the first page is the cool thing to do now?

Okay.. I want the name of the members who decided to drop dk 5 spots, and I want them now.

 

[infiniteV115]

Introduction

The period since tier list v6 (July 2011) has been a hectic one, with the disbandment of the URC and continuing controversy surrounding Meta Knight and the stage list. Seeing how MK is still often legal and the metagame where he is banned is still young, we opted to once again assume his legality. We’ll keep monitoring the community to decide if and when an additional MK-banned tier list will be necessary.

The tier list is not entirely what it used to be: for the first time ever it was created not just through voting, but a weighted integration of BBR votes, SWF matchup chart v2 (weighted based on tier list v6) and monetary success corrected for popularity. While none of the resources are perfect on their own, combining them hopefully makes for a more factual approach. You can find all data below the tier list. If there are any questions regarding the procedure we will strive to answer them and possibly expand on that section.

We are also willing to include writeups on character movement and over the upcoming weeks will likely explain the biggest movements regardless of public demand, but this is definitely something you all have a say in.

I’d like to thank Ishieymoro, Slhoka, John12346, theeboredone and Krystedez for their much appreciated help in working through the data.



BBR Tier List v7

Top
S: (±0)
A: (+6) (-1) (+3) (-2)
B: (-2) (-2) (+1) (-3)

High
C: (+2) (-1) (-1) (+1)

Borderline
D: (+2) (-2) (-1) (±0) (+3)

Mid
E: (+1) (-1) (+3) (±0) (-5) (-1) (+1)
F: (+2) (±0) (+1) (-4)

Low
G: (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1) (±0)
H: (+1) (-1) (±0) (±0)​

It was harder than ever to decide whether the characters in D should be grouped with high or mid and we decided to introduce the borderline tier. Whether they should be included in mid tier tournaments or not is up to the individual TO. Low tier has not changed.


Condensed version:
S: Meta Knight
A: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake
B: Falco, Marth, Pikachu, Wario
C: Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
D: Wolf, Mr. Game & Watch, Fox, Peach, Pit
E: R.O.B., Kirby, Sheilda, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Ike, Sheik
F: Yoshi, Ness, Pokémon Trainer, Luigi
G: Lucas, Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon
H: Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf


[collapse=Sethlon version] Lord Tier
So Good hes not in this game Tier:

Top
Super awesome Tier:
Awesome Tier:
Better than most Tier:

High
Could still win...Tier:

Borderline
Dude, you're pushing it Tier:

Mid
Eh, its your money Tier:
For real? Tier:

Low
GGNOREPaypalPLZ Tier:
Hyrule++ Tier: [/collapse]



Data

Main Excel file: http://www.2shared.com/file/ok_u0l58/TierListv7.html

[collapse=Money and Popularity: July 2011-4/14/2012]

[/collapse]



Character Movement Explained

(#8 to #2)


(#7 to #4)


(#18 to #23)


(#25 to #29)







Previous BBR Tier Lists
v1 (September 1, 2008)
v2 (January 1, 2009)
v3 (June 5, 2009)
v4 (February 26, 2010)
v5 (September 25, 2010)
v6 (July 4, 2011)


Useful Links
SWF Matchup Chart v2
Character Succes and Popularity
European Tier List

Discuss.​

I agree with this list imo

 

[Iota]

I disagree with that list.

 

[Luco]

I remember seeing it and then like two months later thinking luigi was always in that spot and wasn't any higher in v6. My brother and I like to do dittos of worst to best chars.... We get so confused by mid. =(

 

[ぱみゅ]

I slightly disagree with that list.



@Pikachu: just one thing to say, Sheilda.
If results really don't really back up the theory, you can't argue much for it.
ESAM just happens to be an absurdly good player with Pikachu, so he becomes the only evidence Pikachu has, and the only one he needs.

Hey Shaya (hopefully you namesearch this), or whatever mods are available, we at the DDD boards need you to sticky our frame-data thread. Tbh, EVERY char board should be getting their framedata/hitbox threads stickied, but we DDDs would really appreciate it if someone could do that for us soon.

IIRC, the DDD boards mod is Aerodrome.

 

[Espy Rose]

Even that is kinda questionable Kyo.
It's pretty obvious by now that ESAM's just a really good player. DK, ICs, hell, I bet he can even play Snake/Meta Knight and have some decent success.

He just overinflates Pikachu's tournament viability on account of being a really smart player.
It doesn't help that even ESAM needs to bench the rat.

 

[Luco]

Does being a smart player really take away from a character's viability though? I mean, all it means is that you can use those character's tools REALLY well and thus that character has that potential.

Of course, if other characters haven't gotten up to that point, which is the point I think you're making, then you'd argue we shouldn't factor it in. But on the other hand, should we really take in to account something we can't measure? And remember that the tier list is only reflective of our current meta-game, not one in the future.

 

[Cassio]

Even the most absurdly good players wouldnt be able to bring consistent great success to poor characters, and whatever advancements they could make would be considered to be part of the depth of their character. But top tier and most high tier characters arent exactly hurting for representation. Part of the reason ICs are considered top 2 in the game now compared to before is bc of ESAM.

 

[bubbaking]

You need to message the mod for the D3 boards, who I believe is Aerodrome.

IIRC, the DDD boards mod is Aerodrome.

Lolz, you think I wouldn't have tried that before I brought that up here? This is what he said:

Btw, why isn't this thread stickied?

The reason this thread isn't stickied is because it's my own thread. After being appointed mod of the Dedede boards, I didn't want it to look like I was just sticking my own threads and using my mod powers to my own benefit, so I never stuck it.

I'll go garner the attention of Shaya or someone. This definitely deserves to be stickied. Good stuff, Aerodrome!

So yeah, that's why I'm asking this here.

Pikachu is really good though, but also super hard to use all his stuff fully

Which means he isn't really good.

So you're telling me that ICs aren't good because their stuff is pretty hard and only a small handful can actually do all their really good stuff consistently and repeatedly in tournament at top-level? And Fox in Melee is worse than Sheik because he is tons harder to use?

Let's imagine a world where DDD could infinite Yoshi with his Dthrow. Then, DDD would destroy Yoshi, no? The infinite would be super good!

Oh wait, it's super hard to do and thus nobody does it. So its use is irrelevant, and has no water when considering DDD against Yoshi.

Same thing applies. If Pika is "really good" but nobody can do the stuff that makes him really good, then he's just not that good.

But a guy has already proven that the stuff is possible so it should be considered. If no one under the sun had ever shown what he's capable of in theory, then this would make sense, but the fact that just one person has managed to do it means that it should be considered, especially if the argument is being made BY the person who's accomplishing it (and proving his points). Kyokoro was spot on with part of his post:

@Pikachu: just one thing to say, Sheilda.
If results really don't really back up the theory, you can't argue much for it.
ESAM just happens to be an absurdly good player with Pikachu, so he becomes the only evidence Pikachu has, and the only one he needs.