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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Ayce God

Ayce God

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they do well but they don't win any nationals like mk though. having their own tier is a bit overrated and silly imo. especially when I see snake and marth beating both of those people

:phone:
 
Luco

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Nova 9-Star said:
they do well but they don't win any nationals like mk though. having their own tier is a bit overrated and silly imo. especially when I see snake and marth beating both of those people

:phone:
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They come darn close. ESAM came 2nd and Vinnie came 3rd at SKTAR, for one example.

They're not as insane as MK but they get results and in theory it takes 3 mistakes (it doesn't happen in reality, it's more like 5 mistakes. :troll:) for them to win the game. It's so stupid.

They're good because they have a great MU spread, CG, stuff to keep people out and a lot of other stuff.

Also maybe Snake... but Marth? I haven't seen any Marths getting above those two ICs in American Nationals. o.O

Aww, not sure whether Leon has done better or not. I'm reasonably sure that Vinnie/ESAM have done better in, at the very least, some nationals.
 
bubbaking

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Let's also not forget that Vinnie placed 2nd at the Sunrise Tournament in Japan with ICs. He was the only American (as well as the only non-Japanese player) to place in the top 5. 9B also placed 5th at that tournament with ICs. In fact, the top 5 (6) were almost ALL MKs and ICs. MK placed 1st, 3rd, and 5th. ICs placed 2nd and the other 5th. The only exception was Masha's Falco at 4th. Quite interesting results that seem to suggest that these two characters are a league above the rest, if you ask me.

Edit: On a side note, MK also took 7th and 9th. Marth and Snake, the two characters you claim to see beating MK and the ICs, Nova, got no higher than 7th (Marth) and 9th (Snake).

Luco said:
They're not as insane as MK but they get results and in theory it takes 3 mistakes (it doesn't happen in reality, it's more like 5 mistakes. :troll:) for them to win the game. It's so stupid.
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Actually, I've seen 9B repeatedly win matches off of 3 mistakes that landed him a grab.
 
Ayce God

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both mr r and mike haze beat vinnie with marth. Mvd, anti, mr r, mike ray etc also win with snake (not vs vinnie with the exception of ramin and anti I think)

not saying snake or marth are as good as ic, that'd be crazy. but, I don't think they're so broken they need their own tier.

you could say "hey don't get grabbed" vs ic and you'll do fine. you can't say anything like that against mk, bc it's not just one thing that makes him good, he's just all around broken.

not really tryna debate it or anything, I just wanted to know what do ics do that gives them their on tier. thought I might learn something

:phone:
 
ぱみゅ

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I guess I'll just forget about the Sheilda thing.
Even if my theorycrafting were strong, people wouldn't believe it until more people gets strong with them (and both are a pain to learn).

bubbaking said:
That's kinda oversimplifying it. When you focus all match on not getting grabbed, you don't end up getting any better than even with the ICs. They have other moves and their Blizzard is a really good walling tool. Are you sure Anti beat Vinnie with Snake and not MK? <__<
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Anti's MK is weak against ICs, lol
(his run-and-sheild-then-poke game gets ruined, I suppose).

Also, Snake does not need to avoid getting grabbed, he got grenades. Those are his MU-solvers 75% of the time.
 
Vinnie

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On this one page alone there are like 4 false statements being made like they're true. It's really depressing, people shouldn't say things unless they're sure of it. Mr. R didn't beat me with Marth, Snake doesn't beat ICs, and ANTi's MK is not weak against ICs. This year, I went 4-0 vs him with the Japanese ruleset, he went 3-0 vs me in the APEX ruleset. It's entirely ruleset based.
 
Neon!

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I dont think Zelda will ever be a "good" character in any smash game due to her ties with sheik.

Imagine Sheik having the same moveset in Brawl but Zelda having better characteristics that put her in mid tier along with sheik. You would then be able to play two "average" or slightly below average characters who could both rack up damage quickly and then kill quickly.

This would be similar to (though not as extreme) as combining Peach and DK into one character. DK generally does well against characters that peach loses to and vice versa. You would then essentially have two mid tier characters who, when combined would likely be high tier.
 
Neon!

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Doubt many people will care but I ran the numbers and the combination of DK and Peach would have a matchup spread equal to or better than pikachu.
 
Tesh

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Neon! said:
I dont think Zelda will ever be a "good" character in any smash game due to her ties with sheik.

Imagine Sheik having the same moveset in Brawl but Zelda having better characteristics that put her in mid tier along with sheik. You would then be able to play two "average" or slightly below average characters who could both rack up damage quickly and then kill quickly.

This would be similar to (though not as extreme) as combining Peach and DK into one character. DK generally does well against characters that peach loses to and vice versa. You would then essentially have two mid tier characters who, when combined would likely be high tier.
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Well, it could also be as good as combining Marth or Pikachu with Snake or DDD. Its all about how they interpret the Zelda stuff into the fighting game mechanics. For example, Zelda uses magic, and there is no logical reason it HAS to suck so bad like it does in brawl. She could have a huge magical tether grab, a GOOD projectile, way less lag on her recovery (imagine if it was like MK's down B), aerials more like Lucas' (huge sparkly hitboxes that dont rely on a small sweetspot).

Sheik could be quick, but more powerful and switching could be made way less laggy if the other character was already loaded. You would be able to safely switch any time you were launched, or you threw your opponent had mid percents (as safe as it would be in brawl with better load times). The team would be essentially immune to stale moves.
 
Tesh

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Neon! said:
Doubt many people will care but I ran the numbers and the combination of DK and Peach would have a matchup spread equal to or better than pikachu.
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well they both still lose to MK, Olimar, Falco, arguably Snake and Wario, Diddy Kong, DDD and maybe Lucario and Toon Link.
 
Neon!

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Tesh said:
Well, it could also be as good as combining Marth or Pikachu with Snake or DDD. Its all about how they interpret the Zelda stuff into the fighting game mechanics. For example, Zelda uses magic, and there is no logical reason it HAS to suck so bad like it does in brawl. She could have a huge magical tether grab, a GOOD projectile, way less lag on her recovery (imagine if it was like MK's down B), aerials more like Lucas' (huge sparkly hitboxes that dont rely on a small sweetspot).

Sheik could be quick, but more powerful and switching could be made way less laggy if the other character was already loaded. You would be able to safely switch any time you were launched, or you threw your opponent had mid percents (as safe as it would be in brawl with better load times). The team would be essentially immune to stale moves.
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This is part of the point I was trying to make.

Combining two high/top tiers would be extremely overpowered, this is why I believe either both Zelda or Sheik will be average or one will be great and the other bad.


Tesh said:
well they both still lose to MK, Olimar, Falco, arguably Snake and Wario, Diddy Kong, DDD and maybe Lucario and Toon Link.
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No.

They would still lose to MK -2 and then Olimar,Falco, Diddy, DDD, Snake and Wolf -1.

I dont even want to get into how much this combination would destroy wario, mostly because it doesnt matter.

TL and Lucario would lose/go even with the pair considering that peach only loses to them due to kill power, which DK more than makes up for.

 
Tesh

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Well, for the most part, worse characters don't increase the viability of better characters. Peach and DK don't attain any level of viability because they both still get shut down by alot of matchups.
 
bubbaking

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ScaryLB59 said:
Hey, here's to hoping in Smash 4 lol.
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You're putting too much faith into Namco Bandai. :troll:

Tesh said:
Well, for the most part, worse characters don't increase the viability of better characters. Peach and DK don't attain any level of viability because they both still get shut down by alot of matchups.
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Your first sentence is true, but I don't agree with your second one. I believe Peach + DK would definitely attain more viability than either one of them alone because the MUs that "shut down" each component would be mitigated by the mix of the two, and they would still get a better MU spread, as Neon pointed out. With a good transformation mechanic, it becomes a form of 'counterpick immunity.'
 
Tesh

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Even with a good and fair switch time, they both lose to Falco, MK, Olimar and such. Toon Link and Lucario probably give em something, but Peach and DK are both bad and can't cover each other across alot of matchups.
 
C.J.

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K, please show me the recent results for *insert 2 obscure characters here that only have rep on different sides of the country*

:phone:
 
bubbaking

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What's your point, CJ? I never said theorycrafting about Sheilda was bad. In fact, I'm basically implying that theorycraft is all we can do. All I said is that there are no results backing up her MU against DDD, which is true. Also, DDD has some pretty significant rep on both sides of the country.
 
Luco

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bubbaking said:
You're putting too much faith into Namco Bandai. :troll
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But Namco Bandai are good, good! Unless they add one of their own fighters. Then I will insert my Wii-U disc... in to an incinerator! Mwahahahahaha! :p

Was gonna respond to some other post and then realized it wasn't worth the effort. :p
 
infiniteV115

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bubbaking said:
The entire concept of Sheilda is theorycraft. I haven't seen results backing up this "+1" on DDD she's supposed to have. :glare:
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Maybe the +1 is theorycraft, but
-With a MU with almost no results to go off of, literally any ratio you assign to the MU will be theorycraft unless you assign it something like 'unknown' or 'undecided' or '?'
-That still doesn't make 'the entire concept of Sheilda' theorycraft
 
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