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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Bobwithlobsters

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I like how no one has really freaked about how seagull put gannon above zelda. Usually opinions on the worst character end up being very controversial.

also are we still waiting on gehb? We want the mewtwo results!

Lol had to edit this cause I misspelled mewtwo... dont know how I managed to pull that one off.

:phone:
 

Acute.Anthrax

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I like how no one has really freaked about how seagull put gannon above zelda. Usually opinions on the worst character end up being very controversial.
:phone:
I enjoy playing the 2 characters and I personally feel like they could go either way for worst character. But I feel like by being a smarter player and getting a good set of reads and you're more likely to excel farther using Ganon over Zelda.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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wolf is worse than fox, tl, and pit but better than peach.

you over rate zss. she is a huge gimmick.

you under rate lucario, he is an even bigger gimmick but that gimmick is so good....

i agree that sonic is better than all the characters you put below him

luigi is right under sonic imo, that char is a lot better than people give credit for and he even has the results to back it.

and i just want to say kirby sucks, however his back air on sv's platform is a viable char in and of itself
 

Alacion

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Zelda's spot is perfect as well as the abolished borderline tier in Seagull's tier list.
 

Tesh

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I think Sheik/Zelda is alot higher than you put her. With good execution on her techniques, and actual patience I could see her at least as high as Sonic, but probably right below toon link. I don't see how she could be worse than Peach. She is better against every relevant character and is far less crippled in her worst matchups.
 

Iota

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wolf is worse than fox, tl, and pit but better than peach.

you over rate zss. she is a huge gimmick.

you under rate lucario, he is an even bigger gimmick but that gimmick is so good....

i agree that sonic is better than all the characters you put below him

luigi is right under sonic imo, that char is a lot better than people give credit for and he even has the results to back it.

and i just want to say kirby sucks, however his back air on sv's platform is a viable char in and of itself

Lucario is where I'd put him on Joe's tier list. ZSS isn't really overrated on his list, maybe 1-2 spots off but that's it. Luigi is not better than any of the characters you'd have over him. It's true that he wrecks chars when he gets in but his approach is a bad gimmick. I'd say more but I'm tired. :happysheep:
 

ぱみゅ

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I think Sheik/Zelda is alot higher than you put her. With good execution on her techniques, and actual patience I could see her at least as high as Sonic, but probably right below toon link. I don't see how she could be worse than Peach. She is better against every relevant character and is far less crippled in her worst matchups.
He probably think what the big majority thinks, Sheilda=Sheik
 

Tesh

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I feel thats almost true. Zelda is waaaaaaaaaaay worse than Sheik in almost every way. Switching for kills is iffy at best. In exchange for killing at 110% instead of 160%, you know have a useless projectile game, a worse recovery (zelda's distance is worthless without safety), your only kill setup is praying for someone to screw up horribly, and you have to land a heavy move first to cover your laggy transformation. Being a patient sheik and going for something like a charged dsmash, nair OoS, good edgeguarding etc. is alot safer than trying to be lazy/greedy with Zelda.

Imagine if Sonic could "transform" into Ganondorf. He wouldn't be any more viable just because ganondorf has a buttload of kill moves, because ganondorf is just so bad at landing hits, surviving, spacing or ANYTHING.

If the zelda/sheik relationship had the pros of the squirtle/charizard relationship (charizard actually being more useful in some matchups, having way more wieght, recovery distance, usable safe kill moves etc.) I might see how there could be a gap between sheilda and sheik viability, but atm I think zelda puts a marginal +0.1% of success on top of sheik's viability.
 

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Okay.....
Sheilda's gameplan, a very raw explanation by Kyo (who's bad with words and long comments)

For starters, a lot of people confuse Sheik's "unability to kill" with "unability to transform". Sheik can't kill efficently because her attacks just aren't powerful enough. However, they are good for throwing the opponent away, and most characters can't catch her if she transforms right away when she lands a strong hit.

Now, Zelda is a bad character with terrible options, yes.
But her problem as a solo gets much worse because those options most of the time would force her to lose the lead. Now she has to approach, and that's another thing Zelda is terrible at. Most of Zelda's Matchups in the chart (I think) consider her unability to approach and that make some of them look worse than they could be.
Sheik's main ability is to build damage. She can do that prety well, and I am pretty sure that she can get a good lead on most matchups if plays correctly.
With a lead, Zelda does not need to approach. She might be bad, but she is not completly worthless if the opponent is the one who has to get to her. She only needs to land few hits before killing.

That's pretty much it.

The "strategy" does not work if:
*The opponent can reach to her when transforming, even after being sent away too far away.
*The opponent has a good matchup against Sheik, making her unable to gain the lead.
*The opponent has a strong enough projectyle game to beat Nayru and Zelda's shield and able regain the lead without approaching, forcing Zelda to do so. It's still doable for Sheilda, but harder than it should.
*The opponent complety shuts down one of the two parts (Olimar, ICs, Pikachu).
*The opponent gets complety shut down by one of the two parts (Fox).


Overall, in most matchups it won't make a big difference, but whoever has played a good Sheilda (>implying) should agree that the matchups get certainly harder, even if not by much.
 

Tesh

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You don't need to outcamp zelda. Everyone can safely poke at her without risking death any earlier than sheik could kill. I'd take a frame 3-4 kill move at 160 and an 18 damage laser priority projectile over sparkle spam.
 

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Now you're just underrating Zelda.

And I'm pretty sure Sheik can be punished out of a too charged Needle shoot with good SDI.
 

Luco

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You don't need to outcamp zelda. Everyone can safely poke at her without risking death any earlier than sheik could kill. I'd take a frame 3-4 kill move at 160 and an 18 damage laser priority projectile over sparkle spam.
What are you talking about? Sparkle spam is fuuuuuuuun! <3
 

Tesh

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Now you're just underrating Zelda.

And I'm pretty sure Sheik can be punished out of a too charged Needle shoot with good SDI.
I've never seen full needle storm get punished on hit. The lag is always the same from the first needle, but more needles=less lag after the final hitbox. You can SDI them like crazy, but I don't think you can punish a full needle storm on hit. There is probably some good middle ground where you can half charge and get some decent damage without lots of hits to SDI anyway.

The bottom line is that Sheik can more safely put on the extra 40-50% she might need to kill safely as opposed to getting camped out by pretty much anyone as Zelda.
 

bubbaking

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From another thread:
:wolf: is HT honestly (As sad as it is for me to say since I love winning MT tourneys :c), but not Top tier. He lacks the ability of having an overwhelming trait that is a necessity to top tier.
Does anyone actually think that Wolf is Top Tier? (O.o) I would have thought that having a -3 to a 'bad', yet common enough, character already precludes such a position...

I personally don't think :pikachu2:, :wario:, and :marth: are top tier in any regard, but if they were then here are the reasons for them:
:pikachu2:: Broken chaingrab and thunder (lol).
:wario:: Weight, avoidance game, and fart.
:marth:: True spacing game.
Well, Pika also has QACs which I think is a really important trait for a TT char.

Does anyone think :wario:, :pikachu2:, and :marth: all belong in the same tier grouping (Top) as the other 6 I listed? Sure they're considered B tier, but there are only 4 HT characters...At what point do we differentiate between High and Top? Surely there are more High tiers then Top tiers. Thoughts?
Pika and Marth have TT MU spreads that would lend themselves to their current tier positions, though. Wario's MU spreads, however, are of HT-caliber and are part of the reason why I've always lobbied that Wario should drop from TT to HT.

My opinion for a current list in order (Given the current metagame I believe :metaknight: and :popo: deserve their own tier):

[COLLAPSE="Seagull's Tier List"]Top Tier
SS: :metaknight:
S: :popo:
A: :olimar: :snake: :diddy: :falco:

High Tier
B: :pikachu2: :zerosuitsamus: :wario: :marth:
C: :lucario: :dedede: :wolf: :fox: :gw:

Mid Tier
D: :toonlink: :peach: :pit: :sonic:
E: :ike: :kirby2: :rob: :dk2: :ness2: :sheilda: :sheik:
Low Tier
F: :yoshi2: :lucas: :pt: :luigi2:
G: :samus2: :link2: :bowser2: :mario2:
H: :jigglypuff: :falcon: :ganondorf: :zelda:

:018:[/COLLAPSE]
I agree, but only because Ganon isn't last and Jiggs is still in H Tier. :troll:

I literally love how high Fox is with a more neutral stagelist. I also like how they have Pit in High Tier. After looking at Pit's frame data and MUs a long, long time ago, I've always said that Pit should be jumping up our tier list. I think Gheb (wherever he is now) also posted a bunch of good results and victories over top players that Pit mains had pulled off. His biggest weakness is lack of representation, I feel.

Edit: That's an anti-Grim tier list, btw. Completely nonsensical. :smirk:
 

bubbaking

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Indeed, I was just about to say that myself.

I feel thats almost true. Zelda is waaaaaaaaaaay worse than Sheik in almost every way. Switching for kills is iffy at best. In exchange for killing at 110% instead of 160%, you know have a useless projectile game, a worse recovery (zelda's distance is worthless without safety), your only kill setup is praying for someone to screw up horribly, and you have to land a heavy move first to cover your laggy transformation. Being a patient sheik and going for something like a charged dsmash, nair OoS, good edgeguarding etc. is alot safer than trying to be lazy/greedy with Zelda.

Imagine if Sonic could "transform" into Ganondorf. He wouldn't be any more viable just because ganondorf has a buttload of kill moves, because ganondorf is just so bad at landing hits, surviving, spacing or ANYTHING.

If the zelda/sheik relationship had the pros of the squirtle/charizard relationship (charizard actually being more useful in some matchups, having way more wieght, recovery distance, usable safe kill moves etc.) I might see how there could be a gap between sheilda and sheik viability, but atm I think zelda puts a marginal +0.1% of success on top of sheik's viability.
This, in every sense, is pretty much completely accurate and this is also why I believe some of Sheida's key MUs are a little overrated, but just a little...
 

infiniteV115

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QAC's aren't very useful lol. He'd be exactly where he is on the tier list if his QA didn't cancel, imo. It's a small part of his game that he doesn't really rely on. It's more of an 'added perk' sorta thing.
 

bubbaking

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I always thought the ability to recover anywhere on stage, whether it be to the ledge or onstage, and the ability to move around the stage quickly and laglessly was pretty darn good.

For starters, a lot of people confuse Sheik's "unability to kill" with "unability to transform". Sheik can't kill efficently because her attacks just aren't powerful enough. However, they are good for throwing the opponent away, and most characters can't catch her if she transforms right away when she lands a strong hit.
Tbh, most people probably do that because you'd have to hit the opponent really far away to pull of a safe transformation. Transforming takes a fairly long time. You made a point on the DDD boards that the transformation time alters with each Wii and that on the proper systems, transformations could be a lot safer, but that's not something that can be reasonably controlled without modding/hacking.

If you're willing to wait long enough to be able to hit the opponent far enough away to transform, you might as well wait a little bit longer and net that more reliable KO.

Overall, in most matchups it won't make a big difference, but whoever has played a good Sheilda (>implying) should agree that the matchups get certainly harder, even if not by much.
Undoubtedly, but not by much in most, if not all, MUs and probably not enough to garner a completely different MU value (which is partly why I like ratios more than +/- system). This would all lead to Sheilda being relatively close to Sheik on the tier list, I believe.
 

infiniteV115

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I always thought the ability to recover anywhere on stage, whether it be to the ledge or onstage, and the ability to move around the stage quickly and laglessly was pretty darn good.
The bolded part is pretty darn good, but that's just QA and not QAC.
Even with QACs there's still quite a bit of lag if you QAC and jump out of it, the next time you hit the ground you suffer RCO (I think it's 15 frames?). If you don't jump out of it, you suffer the RCO immediately.

The non-bolded part of the quote deals with QACs, which (as I just explained) aren't completely lagless and are still fairly situational.
 

Tesh

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Do stage transformations make Sheik/Zelda switch an slower? Do Sheilda players keep that in mind when CP'ing.
Yes, its really sad that something so important is left up to how fast your wii loads or if a whole bunch of crap goes on at the same time. Transformations of stages and characters is determined by load times. The busier the match, the more time it will take. For example, once during a wifi match I transformed on CS and during the time it took my next pokemon to load, an opponent fully charged a smash threw it out before my pokemon came out. However for sheik, if there is already a zelda (might have to be the same color zelda) on the screen she can SH transform pretty fast and it looks useful.

Basically Sheilda might be a bit more viable if the wii wasn't a piece of crap or the developers thought to pre-load the next transformation for characters/stages. PT would be a bit better for being able to skip ivysaur more safely.
*Looks at Ike's Dair*

*Looks at pika's Dair*

That's not right!
i...dont understand what you are trying to say.
 

Luco

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Ike and Pikachu both have stupid, silly ending lag frames if the Dair in to the ground, and Pika is meant to be dang quick. There's not a gigantic amount of frames between those landing lags... well, not enough so that it'll make any difference if the opponent wants to punish you. :glare:
 

infiniteV115

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And also if you do a sh dair properly with Pikachu (ie it comes out ASAP) then you land immediately after the dair so the landing hitbox doesn't come out and you don't suffer a poopton of landing lag
 

Luco

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At least Pika's dair has a landing hitbox. :happysheep:
True... ranged attacks though. Fully charged charge beam or Aura Sphere would be stupidity. Even ROBs Gyro would be annoying. :-/

Obviously in the case of the gyro it might stop it. On the other hand, it might not be timed so well. :(
 
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