Official BBR Tier List v7

[da K.I.D.]

Actually, yes. Texas is so unbelievably biased about MK that I'm 100% sure nobody from your state is capable of objective analysis of the character.

That and you, Espy, are an idiot. I accept any infractions I get for this post.

edit: lmao who the **** ever thought I was friendly

Arent you from the tristate area? The place where alex strife holds apex, aka, the place that will do any conceivable thing in its power to keep mk legal? Youre just as biased for mk (moreso imo) than texas is against him


Also, quick side note, the last 3 third strike majors than I have seen (with in the last month or so) have all been won by Yun.
And Fox doesnt win nationals in melee.

I love how your reaction to this is 'well they are the best characters so they could win if people played them' which goes on a completely random tangent from your main point, which was 'chun li and fox are more dominant than MK.' That statement is false. Thus, your argument holds no weight

Also chun li is top tier in a game where 3-5 characters out of 20-something characters can win a major. And without her, ken, yun, urien, and makoto still oppress everyone below them. The is no added character viability to be gained from banning chun li
Fox is top tier in a game where roughly 5-6 characters out of 26 can win a major. And without him, falco, puff, marth, peach, and to a lesser extent, sheik, falcon and ICs can still be viable and stomp everyone below them. There is no viability to be added from banning fox.
Mk is top tier in a game WITH ONE TOP TIER CHARACTER (that being himself) where MAYBE 3 other characters can win a national out of 38. But when you remove him from the occasion, i can tell you right now that ddd, gaw, lucario, toon link, pikachu, wario, dk, ike, sonic and rob instantly become viable options to win tournaments with without the mk threat. They all still have a bad matchup or two with olimar/diddy/snake/ICs, (PROTIP: this is what creates a thriving metagame) but not bad enough that they cant overcome it. There is A TON of viability to be added to brawl from banning a character as oppressive as meta

 

[Cassio]

You two are literally adding nothing new to this discussion. You could hold this discussion quoting old posts from over a year ago. Please please please let the conversation move on.

 

[da K.I.D.]

But yea, What cassio said

Back to Gheb getting exposed by DMG please

 

[Gardex]

..... But when you remove him from the occasion, i can tell you right now that ddd, gaw, lucario, toon link, pikachu, wario, dk, ike, sonic and rob instantly become viable options to win tournaments with without the mk threat...

What.

Spoiler

10whats

 

[infiniteV115]

Pikachu doesn't really get held back by MK. He has one of the best MUs against MK. He gets held back by Oli and Diddy, and (to a lesser extent) ICs.

 

[Delta-cod]

But yea, What cassio said

Back to Gheb getting exposed by DMG please

Yes please.

 

[Espy Rose]

Pikachu doesn't really get held back by MK. He has one of the best MUs against MK. He gets held back by Oli and Diddy, and (to a lesser extent) ICs.

Thanks for helping to emphasize his point.

 

[Life]

I eventually became pro-ban because I realized that, in order to keep MK legal, you ban a ton of stages, you have a LGL and possibly a scrooging rule, and then even after all of that, instead of MK MK MK whatever MK, you get like MK IC MK whatever IC.

All those arbitrary rules and unnecessary stage bans create virtually no additional character viability, except for Climbers and maybe the occasional Oli or something. Meanwhile, ban MK, have a reasonable number of stages so Climbers don't become the new MK, and the game is so much better.

If I ever get around to TOing (I'm still toying with the idea, especially if Mav leaves), I'll probably run something like:
Unity stages, maybe add like Japes/Norfair/second stage ban after a while if I could talk my region into it
ban MK
instead of current timeout rules: no LGL for regular games, one-stock tiebreaker with very strict LGL if games go to time

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Most characters high on the tier list lose to Oli/ICs harder than MK because for a long time our primary method of determining whether or not a character was good was using their MK match-up. LOL

MK still broke tho

 

[fkacyan]

The irony: I think MK is banworthy. You just all want him banned for the wrong reasons, which is exactly what I said when there was a community vote way back when.

Big post once I'm not at work about why you're all dumb, and why you need to know more about game design to really make an informed decision about this kind of thing. <3

EDIT: Also, really, you guys are waaaaay too easy to derail. I'm sorry that most of the regular posters here have such easily bruised egos / are easily inflamed by the mention of one character, to those fo you who want to discuss other characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Because competitively MK isn't a goddamn problem.

Asking to ban MK is more or less equivalent to telling the 3S community to ban Chun-li and the Melee community to ban Fox.

The irony: I think MK is banworthy.

Guys, he isn't a problem competitively, but should be banned.

Passive aggressive stupidity does derail a thread very well.
Congrats.

 

[Espy Rose]

Most characters high on the tier list lose to Oli/ICs harder than MK because for a long time our primary method of determining whether or not a character was good was using their MK match-up. LOL

Not sure if how it works is the same with other characters entirely, but Sonic has issues with the Ice Climbers and Olimar match up because of the restricted stage lists, which MK had an influence on.

COINCIDENCE?!?!

 

[fkacyan]

Guys, he isn't a problem competitively, but should be banned.

You don't always patch a game for the sake of the players playing at the top level of the game. Sometimes it's for the rest of the community, too.

Unless you want to say that MK is causing worse players to win over better ones, in which case he is a competitive problem. Don't think we've seen that happen, though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That is entirely dependant on whether you think mk is op or not.

I can say that a player that is worse than me has beaten me because he plays mk. But if hes an mk main, you could just say that it was because he wasnt playing his best character.

But for the record, yes i have lost to a guy repeatedly that was a worse player than me (he mains pikachu) simply because he played mk. And in the times where he actually played his main on me, i beat him soundly and we both agreed that he would have won if mk was available to him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I beat Dark.pch a couple of times with MK back when we played together... and I don't play MK. At the time he was way, way, way better than me. LOL

I literally had no idea what I was doing, just did the same thing I do with ZSS.

There are way too many MK "Cinderella stories" out there to just ignore. How many players were bad and then picked up MK and are suddenly good? And why do we so often refuse to acknowledge that their character changed? >_>

 

[infiniteV115]

I literally had no idea what I was doing, just did the same thing I do with ZSS.

Spaced sideB, dsmash x2 --> fair/bair/uair/nair, dsmash x2 --> dash attack --> utilt, dash attack lock --> tilt, jab --> run away, dsmash on shield

You did this **** to Dark Pch with MK and you beat him?
Damn. Dark Pch sucks

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Spaced sideB, dsmash x2 --> fair/bair/uair/nair, dsmash x2 --> dash attack --> utilt, dash attack lock --> tilt, jab --> run away, dsmash on shield

You did this **** to Dark Pch with MK and you beat him?
Damn. Dark Pch sucks

Sorry, but it should have been pretty clear I didn't mean that I used literally the same moves. >_> Just launch and juggle and space aerials.

And Dark.pch, for the record, had my terrible MK downloaded in a few matches.

 

[fkacyan]

Peach is just a pretty abysmal character, SfP.

@Kid: Just because he mains Pikachu doesn't mean he has a sound understanding of how to play the character or the Sonic / Pika matchup. It just means he spends the most time on that character.

Wish I had more time to post right now than isolated moments that my boss takes to smoke.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I was joking XD

 

[Espy Rose]

Thio, you have no idea who he's referring to. He has plenty of Pikachu vs. Sonic experience.

 

[Juushichi]

I would imagine that kid is referring to pikpik, so... yeah. espy has it right... wait no

isn't he dumb? i'm confused

 

[da K.I.D.]

pikax2 has been my practice partner in smash for the last 7 years. Im pretty sure he knows how to fight my characters in both games, and vice versa.

Im better/smarter than him at brawl currently and we both know that. but he can still beat me consistently with MK. hes super smart but he just doesnt put as much work into the game as I do.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You don't always patch a game for the sake of the players playing at the top level of the game. Sometimes it's for the rest of the community, too.

This isn't like Soul Calibur where characters on the arcade differed from the console and ended up being banned. The circumstances are differently entirely and does not relate to this scenario.

I would imagine that kid is referring to pikpik, so... yeah. espy has it right... wait no

isn't he dumb? i'm confused

No no Espy does it have it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pro double post

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach is just a pretty abysmal character, SfP.

That's true, but if he alone can even begin to make up for that kind of skill differential, isn't there a problem? >_>

Like, most of mid tier is considered "terrible" because they are -3 with MK or because some other character chaingrabs them or something like that. MK seems to be the only character in the game that doesn't need some kind of infinite or 0-death to invalidate multiple characters. But whatever.

 

[Attila_]

Don't sleep on my boy Attila (the Hun, **** Australia). He's very solid, but lacking in experience.

not sure if this a call out or not.

 

[fkacyan]

This isn't like Soul Calibur where characters on the arcade differed from the console and ended up being banned. The circumstances are differently entirely and does not relate to this scenario.

Misconstrued what I said entirely. I don't think MK should be banned because he causes people to win who should not at high levels of play. That's all I meant by it. I haven't actually said why I think he's banworthy at all! Won't be until later.

 

[Delta-cod]

Kinda interested in these reasons, to be honest.

 

[DMG]

I don't

MORE MEWTWO!

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lets talk about olimar. His performance lately seems to be a bit down (compared to earlier in the year) at top level. Meanwhile in Japan since nietono quit, Brood's kinda been stepping it up lately. So yeah, he seems a bit unstable right now. Where does he belong tho?

But Brood loses to randoms....
He normally places tied with Kairo, maybe one or two tiers above.
Kairo herself could play much better if she gets some real training (I think Nietono was coaching her at the last tournament).

Meanwhile, american Olimars don't put as much work as japanese, so we'll have to wait to APEX to see how Olimar is doing at tournaments.

However, that shouldn't influence on how good a character is. It should be nothing but a mere reference.

Its important when you look at the game from the perspective of the current meta-game. I know some people prefer to take a more objective approach and context is still important, but both are relevant. Thatd actually be an interesting discussion too.

That sounds actually terrible and illogical, like, one good result causing characters to jump spots on the Tier List.....
Wait, that's exactly what happens.

God forbid the day ESAM decides not to enter tournaments anymore and Pikachu suddently drops on the List...

 

[Iota]

Yes.

Please Gheb, tell us why Mewtwo should be OU since you obviously know more about the game than we do.

 

[Cassio]

Lately, it'd seemed like Brood was doing a bit better than hed done in the recent past. But I havent poured over results to be sure.

That sounds actually terrible and illogical, like, one good result causing characters to jump spots on the Tier List.....
Wait, that's exactly what happens.

Well its not very fair to use an extreme circumstance to make a judgement, the same kind of extreme could be used to knock at theoretical analysis. Itd be like concluding that vegetables are bad bc if someone ate a truckload theyd die. Its a method that clearly has merit even if its not someones particular preference.

 

[fkacyan]

Kinda interested in these reasons, to be honest.

Directly tied into the main theme of most of my posts last night! I wonder if anybody actually read them or if people just got mad.

 

[DMG]

HEY! This is my fight, my Mewtwo! You stay outta this

 

[Delta-cod]

Directly tied into the main theme of most of my posts last night! I wonder if anybody actually read them or if people just got mad.

I read them but didn't pay much attention because I was also writing a paper and studying for a test I had today.

It's still interesting that you'd actually explicitly post your reasoning because it's something I don't think you've ever done before.

 

[Iota]

Directly tied into the main theme of most of my posts last night! I wonder if anybody actually read them or if people just got mad.

I read them. The tone of your posts was annoying though.

HEY! This is my fight, my Mewtwo! You stay outta this

..:< Fine

 

[Z'zgashi]

Exposing Gheb > Thios silly comments.

Sorry bro, but thats just how it is.

 

[Iota]

I think Gheb is avoiding this thread until everybody gives up on exposing him.

 

[Raziek]

not sure if this a call out or not.

Damn straight it is.

Shaya's a butt.

Spoiler

I'm joking, it was just to differentiate between the two.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Has Gheb answered yet? How do I subscribe on mobile?