Official BBR Tier List v7

[fkacyan]

Because my region totally invalidates the voice I have about the character, right?

Seems legit.

Actually, yes. Texas is so unbelievably biased about MK that I'm 100% sure nobody from your state is capable of objective analysis of the character.

That and you, Espy, are an idiot. I accept any infractions I get for this post.

edit: lmao who the **** ever thought I was friendly

 

[Iota]

MK ban arguments are stupid. Needs a better topic imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't need data, I'm not interested in proving that MK should be objectively banned anymore to be honest. I don't have data, just my understanding of the metagame. My goal is to convince anyone reading this that the LGL is a flawed rule, they can draw their own conclusions from there.

Slippery slopes are intrinsically related to double standards, but they are not the same and that certainly isn't a matter of semantics. Is there something you disagree with in my "smoke screen", or are you just being argumentative?

 

[fkacyan]

MK ban arguments are stupid. Needs a better topic imo.

Of course they're stupid. There's absolutely no factual basis for banning him that isn't based on arbitrary criteria or poor, incomplete analysis of the matchups involved.

That said, there's never been a single discussion in this thread or any other iteration of it that hasn't been worthless discussion where the time could be better used doing something actually useful, like maybe doing frame data spacing work to see how spacing affects the usefulness of frame data for moves in various matchups, or a stage-by-stage matchup piece to actually do something useful about stage legality.

Or, like, sleep, which I guess I should be doing with work in the morning.

Slippery slopes are intrinsically related to double standards, but they are not the same and that certainly isn't a matter of semantics. Is there something you disagree with in my "smoke screen", or are you just being argumentative?

Saying that we should change something based on a double standard is a slippery slope and anything past that is useless arguing about semantics, which easily distracts from that actual discussion at hand, which is the fact that there's no objective data to be had that proves a point either way and that you simply want a different set of arbitrary criteria than the other set of people, which in turn you have absolutely no data to prove will increase the number of competitively viable options in the game.

 

[-LzR-]

Just looking at MKs framedata and hitboxes should be enough to tell how overpowered the character is.
Even a bad player can do incredible mixups with him, even with good DI you die at 60% to a zero risk shuttle loop offstage and even if you were to dodge it you would be frametrapped to a dair probably. It's the combination of bull**** and the lacks of any real risk that makes him so dumb. But just like Grim, we are not from the allmighty America so we don't have any place in this argument.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I only have no data because no one runs tournaments where MK doesn't have a ledge grab limit.

My criteria is logical, not arbitrary. Again, you should read my thread.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Kyo, the best part is that "bad for MK" in your post essentially means that the character/stage combo allows them to go 50:50 with the bat at best.

Olimar-MK on YI:M
I'm pretty sure that's a hell of a MU for MetaKnight trying to approach from below.

I am also pretty sure Pirate Ship can be a headache for MK against Snake, Falco, or other characters he gimps hard and can spike him...

Once again, I am not really sure because stages were there for a very short amout of time.

Kyokoro: A lot of the time, being as competitive as possible and appealing to the community are the same thing.

I forgot your definition of "more competitive" included "the more people participates, the better a competition becomes"



@LzR: no. Frame data is one thing, but it shows nothing itself. Just like any other kind of data, it depends on how you interpret it.

 

[fkacyan]

I only have no data because no one runs tournaments where MK doesn't have a ledge grab limit.

My criteria is logical, not arbitrary. Again, you should read my thread.

We already know MK will sit on the ledge and plank to victory. Don't need a tourney to prove that's the optimal option. What you need to prove is that the game without the LGL and MK is better than the game with MK and the LGL.

Shockingly, this is actually something where direct comparison can be done with the right matchup data. Sadly, we don't have that data, because, as I was told when I last suggested to the possibility a few years ago, "It would take too long."

Until you actually have data that proves such a change would be healthy for the game, there's literally no point arguing for it.

I have absolutely no interest in reading your thread. Soz, bro, but I see no way it'll interest me or "broaden my horizons," so to speak. I understand your viewpoint completely, it's just... Incomplete. You're missing the part where there has to be a basis in reality for things to change.

EDIT: @above: MK has a hell of a time against Olimar / Diddy on YI:B, Frigate Orpheon's second part, and to a lesser extent Battlefield. He has literally zero viable approach options once those characters are under a low platform. If Frigate's second part was a static stage MK would be forced to ban it to prevent counterpicking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree that a game with MK and a LGL is better than a game with neither.

I also believe that a game with Temple that bands circle camping is better than one without.

See where I'm going with this?

 

[fkacyan]

I agree that a game with MK and a LGL is better than a game with neither.

I also believe that a game with Temple that bands circle camping is better than one without.

See where I'm going with this?

I don't care about what you believe. I care about which form of the game offers the most competitively viable options for play.

What you believe is absolutely worthless.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In that case; the Temple scenario I suggested offers more competitively viable options than Brawl without Temple. Obviously.

Now who is arguing semantics (and being a **** for no reason)?

 

[fkacyan]

In that case; the Temple scenario I suggested offers more competitively viable options than Brawl without Temple. Obviously.

Now who is arguing semantics (and being a **** for no reason)?

If it does, I see no reason to have Temple unbanned. Of course, you'd need data to back that up.

And yeah, if you're going to bring belief into a factual discussion, I'm gonna be a ****, because you're being stupid by doing so and absolutely deserve me being a ****.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fair enough.
As long as you accept the ramifications of Meta Knight being legal (like Temple also being legal, albeit with a rule to make it fair, etc...) then I do not disagree with you, at least on this point.

<3

 

[fkacyan]

Fair enough.
As long as you accept the ramifications of Meta Knight being legal (like Temple also being legal, albeit with a rule to make it fair, etc...) then I do not disagree with you, at least on this point.

<3

Of course. stages and characters aren't the same thing. If we had two stages: BF1 and BF2, that were literally identical in every way, we could ban one just on the basis that it brought nothing to the table the first did not.

So the question in Temple's case is: What does it bring to the table that other stages already do not do without detracting from the game?

In this case, all it offers is longer, campier games, even if you disallow circle camping. This makes for a less fun game to watch and longer tourneys, neither of which are good for a competitive game that thrives on people entering to lose and then watch the higher-level matches.

MK brings a huge dynamic to the table that far offsets the small loss that a few characters suffer from losing the ability to suck at planking.

Try again.

 

[DMG]

Actually, yes. Texas is so unbelievably biased about MK that I'm 100% sure nobody from your state is capable of objective analysis of the character.

That and you, Espy, are an idiot. I accept any infractions I get for this post.

edit: lmao who the **** ever thought I was friendly

You know I'm pretty offended by that, and I doubt Razer Gnes Trela or Dojo (or Denti but he plays Olimar no one wants to hear his opinion) would care much to hear that either.

 

[fkacyan]

You know I'm pretty offended by that, and I doubt Razer Gnes Trela or Dojo (or Denti but he plays Olimar no one wants to hear his opinion) would care much to hear that either.

Somebody is more than welcome to prove me wrong at some point in time.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I could just do another example instead of Temple that is less arguable about whether it brings more to the game or not, but it's not worth it. I made my point.

 

[fkacyan]

I could just do another example instead of Temple that is less arguable about whether it brings more to the game or not, but it's not worth it. I made my point.

And your point is based on the slippery slope fallacy, which is assuming that we have to make other allowances of similar nature to the MK / LGL allowance, which we don't. Each can be assessed on an individual and mutually exclusive basis.

Your logic is flawed, GT. Sorry.

 

[DMG]

Somebody is more than welcome to prove me wrong at some point in time.

Replying to this is really high on their list of **** to do. I'll notify them by carrier pidgeon immediately.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And your point is based on the slippery slope fallacy, which is assuming that we have to make other allowances of similar nature to the MK / LGL allowance, which we don't. Each can be assessed on an individual and mutually exclusive basis.

Your logic is flawed, GT. Sorry.

Assessing the MK/LGL allowance and the Temple/Camping allowance separately is still going to lead to them being lumped together because things are banned in Brawl for the same reason (being uncompetitive).

I'm done with this discussion.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Seeing Grim post is possibly one of the most hilarious things since Doc King.

 

[DMG]

How dare you disgrace Doc King's name with a lowly serf like Grim? It's not even comparable

 

[Flayl]

Asking to ban MK is more or less equivalent to telling the 3S community to ban Chun-li

Chun-li loses slightly to Yun. I'm pretty sure I pointed out last time you made this flawed comparison that 3rd strike is a lot more balanced than Smash, but you made it pretty clear you're completely unable to learn when it compromises your opinion.

 

[Sinister Slush]

"I have an opinion"
"Your opinion is wrong!"

 

[Shaya]

Opinions on Meta Knight are all wrong, guaranteed.Thio still finding the time in between his busy dominion league schedule to troll people on the MK debate.
Let's not talk about MK! Yay!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We need something actually tier list related to talk about...

Discussion always just moves on to match-ups anyway though, this thread could be quite easily fused with the MU thread.

 

[Dre89]

What objective data are you using to use this as a factual point? Please show me the thread where we did a matchup analysis for MK vs every other character on every tourney legal stage.

Oh wait. We haven't done that and there's nothing to prove that this is fact.

Please don't bring up the matchup chart, either. There has been nothing close to the kind of in-depth analysis necessary for that thing to really be of any real use to something as serious as banning a character.

EDIT: lol texans talking about MK

Well then please show me your data which shows that MK is comparable to Melee Fox in terms of bad matchups and stages.

It's the general consensus that MK has no bad matchups nor stages where he is at a disadvantage. I shouldn't need data for that, especially considering that's not what most pro-MKs even contest about the ban argument.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Because competitively MK isn't a goddamn problem.

Sure we don't.
Its why we created the LGL rule.
Cause, you know, everyone was stalling on the edge...

Asking to ban MK is more or less equivalent to telling the 3S community to ban Chun-li and the Melee community to ban Fox. In a stagnant unpatched metagame there will always be a best character and the best character will see the most play.

I find it hilarious you even think of comparing the awesome of 3s to this unbalanced game.
Everytime you post about MK, you always speak with an emotional investment, not with a logical one.

 

[fkacyan]

I find it hilarious you even think of comparing the awesome of 3s to this unbalanced game.
Everytime you post about MK, you always speak with an emotional investment, not with a logical one.

No, I'm just an ***. You tend to confuse the two.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, I'm just an ***. You tend to confuse the two.

No no no don't even try that Thio.
You see, I am an ***. Pretty well known for it by my "fans".

When K.I.D. says things like, im among the top sonics, I almost always try to shoot him down.

THAT is being an ***. It is unnecessary, maybe true, but its a pretty rude thing to do.

You on the other hand, I would compare to Glenn Beck. You're not an ***, you're an emotionally driven individual who thinks what he says is factual.

You immediately declaring the thoughts and opinions of someone such as Espy, invalid, based upon the region they play in is something only an individual who is emotionally driven in their argument would do.

Why? Obviously because it is illogical. And people who are an ***, such as Yuna, can still be logical.


Cyclops from X-Men? He can be an ***.
Wolverines? ***.
M2K? He can be an *** too.
Some of the mods? Bunch of ***** their at times.

You? Not an ***.

Well that wasn't very hard to prove you wrong about, I'd take a stab at the MK thing but you'd just twist it around to suit your argument because the possibility of being wrong is literally beyond your scope.

A.k.a. waste of time.

 

[fkacyan]

You immediately declaring the thoughts and opinions of someone such as Espy, invalid, based upon the region they play in is something only an individual who is emotionally driven in their argument would do.

lol

10chars

 

[RaptorTEC]

This argument is dumb. I'm still interested in what Gheb has to say about that one guys question.

 

[Cassio]

What kills me is that its the same arguments by the same people with the same stubborn disagreements. Its like watching episodes of Friends, its fun the first time but it gets old very quickly.

Lets talk about olimar. His performance lately seems to be a bit down (compared to earlier in the year) at top level. Meanwhile in Japan since nietono quit, Brood's kinda been stepping it up lately. So yeah, he seems a bit unstable right now. Where does he belong tho?

 

[Dre89]

I don't see how a player quitting or a player playing better than before somehow affects how good the character is.

 

[Cassio]

Its important when you look at the game from the perspective of the current meta-game. I know some people prefer to take a more objective approach and context is still important, but both are relevant. Thatd actually be an interesting discussion too.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Oli should be 3rd. MK 1st obv, and ICs second.

 

[Dre89]

Its important when you look at the game from the perspective of the current meta-game. I know some people prefer to take a more objective approach and context is still important, but both are relevant. Thatd actually be an interesting discussion too.

Not to brag, but I predicted a lot of things back in 09 based on my intuition and (limited) understanding, and I'm not even a good player.

Back then I thought MK Olimar and ICs were the best chars in the game. I thought Wario, who was ranked like 3rd at the time, wasn' that good, and that Sonic was capable of a lot more in reality than what people were theorycrafting. I thought Pikachu was good character who could be a threat on a national level and to high-top tiers like MK. There were other little things too but I won't go into them.

The tier list is starting to reflect this now. The point isn't that I'm some amazing authority on Brawl, in fact it's the opposite. The fact that a low-level player like could predict developments like that years in advance shows how limited the results-based system is, even if it's not entirely results- centred.

It's much more accurate to look at things like frame data, human reaction time, learning curves etc. than to base a character's potential on whether they have a good main at the time or not. Because that's the thing, a character's potential isn't based on how good its players are, but it's actual programming.

Also, of people want to do MU ratios, it'd be much more pragmatic to do ratios that apply to a level of play that more than like 4 people are currently at.

People say things like "DK experience doesn't mean crap unless it's against Will" well then what's the point of an MU ratio or MU advice if it only applies to one person in the world? How does that help the 99% of the Smash community who play at a level that these ratios and tier lists apply to?

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol

10chars

K.

Its important when you look at the game from the perspective of the current meta-game. I know some people prefer to take a more objective approach and context is still important, but both are relevant. Thatd actually be an interesting discussion too.

Well I find that an objective point of view tends to be longer lasting, where as when you view things from a current approach views tend to flip a bit.
I get a bit frustrated at times when people switch opinions like they do underwear.

 

[Cassio]

Well its an interesting discussion with lots of perspectives. I wont delve too far into it now, but the idea behind analyzing off the current meta-game isn't to create something thats correct in an absolute sense, but to make a list thats based off the current representation of the game. In that sense, even though the meta-game is more developed now, the tier lists back in 08-09 weren't wrong because back then it represented the current meta-game. When I first came to smashboards, the melee tierlist v6 had a big post right up front about the list was based off the current meta-game and an explanation of what that meant. Not to say that its right or wrong, but theres definitely other ways of looking at it.

I do agree that opinions flipping every week is annoying, which is why its a good thing the list doesnt come out too frequently. At the same time I think one cool aspect is that we can look back at our game and see how its developed over the years.

Edit: As a side note, I think a massive amount of disagreements that happen in these discussion threads are people who havent agreed on which perspective to take. Sometimes its like people are arguing in two different languages bc that basic agreement hasnt been made.

 

[fkacyan]

There's nothing to say to you that my first post to you didn't already say, SLink. <3