Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, it's the other way around. 29 for releaser, 30 for released.

 

[C.J.]

You're sure? Everything ever points the other way. I remember seeing threads about it and I know reflex gets pummel to jab a lot. As in I've never seen it shielded once

 

[Tesh]

I said this exact thing on the PT boards and Reflex told me they both have the same animation, but the releaser can buffer and the other guy can't.

I guess its essentially the same thing. that 30th frame is wasting on buffering for the 31st frame.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I said this exact thing on the PT boards and Reflex told me they both have the same animation, but the releaser can buffer and the other guy can't.

I guess its essentially the same thing. that 30th frame is wasting on buffering for the 31st frame.

Ahh this makes sense, thanks!

I know for sure that ZSS' gr animation is 29 frames and that the first action is on 30 though.

I did a ton of testing and counting when trying to grab release meta knight to footstool the other day.

EDIT: Also, does anyone have anything to say regarding ICs and k prime mashing? Do we just assume all ICs woudl start performing frame perfect CGs until 80%?

 

[NickRiddle]

Buffer CGs are lame. Also, most notable characters get SoPo CGed first.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Honest question: why has the K prime buffered mashing not hurt ICs tournament viability? Is it because no one does it and only because no one does it?

Instead of asking why no one does it, I'm going to ask a different question: what would happen if was abused? Wouldn't the threat of ICs grabbing you be diminished significantly? Or would we just go back to calling ICs players bad because they weren't perfectly buffering their grab 100% of the time?

This seems rhetorical but I'm genuinely curious. ICs get a lot of grabs when Nana has to catch up before the CG can start, shutting even those down would be a really big deal IMO.

Plus any character with really fast options after grab break (Peach, ZSS, Squirtle? can actually jab before shield comes out and her full jab combo works on ICs) would actually make grabs a risk

Because nobody does the K prime mash except for Esam as far as I know.

Buffer CGs are lame. Also, most notable characters get SoPo CGed first.

gets cg'd from like 10%-70% by sopo . Good thing the cg will end before it got that high because he would move acrosss the stage.

 

[Tesh]

I always wondered why DK mains didn't jump all over that. Doesn't he get a free Dsmash when he mashes out of a grab?

Not like he needs taunts anyway, just spam crouch or dtilt with him and its HILARIOUS.

 

[Ishiey]

Wolf getting CG'd forever by SoPo is the only reason that MU isn't in our favor ;__; so many other characters can get away with doing something unsafe to separate Nana and eating a weak punishment, I envy you guys

 

[DMG]

I read somewhere, correct me if I'm wrong, that if the person just lazily held shield the jab would hit, but that if you buffered shield you would be safe?

 

[Luigi player]

I always wondered why DK mains didn't jump all over that. Doesn't he get a free Dsmash when he mashes out of a grab?

Not like he needs taunts anyway, just spam crouch or dtilt with him and its HILARIOUS.

dsmash is like 1 frame too slow

also when DK get's grab released he can definitely buffer stuff o_o

 

[Tesh]

oh its only frame 9 at the top right? frame 11 at the bottom?

well he can still dtilt or jab into stupid stuff right? thats what DK does.

 

[Luigi player]

oh its only frame 9 at the top right? frame 11 at the bottom?

well he can still dtilt or jab into stupid stuff right? thats what DK does.

DKs dsmash hits above him on frame 10, on the ground/lower on frame 11.

And yeah DK can ftilt/dtilt/jab (jab doesn't hit often). Against Snake he can even get a grab since if Snake releases someone you'll be really near him.
Too bad I always air release when I mash against Snake so I never get that opportunity.

 

[Tesh]

Yea, thats always a really scary part about grabbing him with Sonic. Pummel damage is huge for Sonic, but you definitely don't wanna get greedy and have something scary happen. Especially since you have to do like 3x damage to win there.

 

[NickRiddle]

DKs dsmash hits above him on frame 10, on the ground/lower on frame 11.

And yeah DK can ftilt/dtilt/jab (jab doesn't hit often). Against Snake he can even get a grab since if Snake releases someone you'll be really near him.
Too bad I always air release when I mash against Snake so I never get that opportunity.

Snake always air-releases unless during pummels.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

That isn't how it works. ZSS' grab release animation is 29. If she buffers her jab it comes out on 30, while a person with 30 frames of lag shields on 31.

There's 1 frame difference and the jab is 1 frame, how does it not connect?

You have them the wrong way around. Grab release animation is 30 frames. Buffers to frame 31. The grabber's releasing animation is 29 frames. Shield comes up on frame 30.
Unless you mean ZSS is grabbing then yeah.

 

[Pikabunz]

Oops, ignore this.

 

[Luigi player]

Snake always air-releases unless during pummels.

Oh, right, that makes it more difficult lol. I also often air release on other characters, because I always rotate the controlstick and if you do that you can air release.

 

[NickRiddle]

Dat up input.

 

[Pikabunz]

Honest question: why has the K prime buffered mashing not hurt ICs tournament viability? Is it because no one does it and only because no one does it?

Because it's not as effective as you think and most people are more comfortable using their own mashing methods. Even I still use the normal mash method cause I'm more used to it and I like having my taunts. And even if you're mashing as fast as the game lets you, IC's can still cg you to death if they don't mess up.

 

[Luigi player]

Dat up input.

yeah, it's really stupid, even without tap jump. but I play with tap jump on anyway...

mashing without rotating the stick is much worse I think

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because it's not as effective as you think and most people are more comfortable using their own mashing methods. Even I still use the normal mash method cause I'm more used to it and I like having my taunts. And even if you're mashing as fast as the game lets you, IC's can still cg you to death if they don't mess up.

Funny enough, many japanese players use it (at least I saw Ootori using it), and 9B is still considered a god there.

 

[Luco]

Because it's not as effective as you think and most people are more comfortable using their own mashing methods. Even I still use the normal mash method cause I'm more used to it and I like having my taunts. And even if you're mashing as fast as the game lets you, IC's can still cg you to death if they don't mess up.

That's true enough. Guess the more mashing you do, the more pressure is put on them to keep the cg going. With enough pressure they might mess up. Doubt it would happen to top players, though.

 

[Pikabunz]

So do people care about port priority when it comes to playing as/against IC's? It seems like most people don't know that the lower port number has a very slight advantage when it comes to grab breaks and throws.

 

[| Big D |]

Yes but the lower port player has grab priority, and vs ICs you don't want to get grabbed.

So I guess people should care but the instances where it matters are a lot rarer than against say Snake.

 

[da K.I.D.]

all I know is that you want to be 4th slot when youre in situations where both characters can get hit with something while they are in a grab. i.e. against snake when you grab him near a nade.

but I dont know how that concept applies to ICs. explain please.

 

[Pikabunz]

I meant to say lower port number (1st slot). I'm talking a different kind of priority which is grab break/throw priority. If two players grab break and throw on the same frame then the lower port will do the grab break/throw. It's a very small advantage, but it's still something. You can kind of see as having 1 extra frame to break out of grabs. This doesn't even have to apply to just IC's either.

 

[Luigi player]

Yes but the lower port player has grab priority, and vs ICs you don't want to get grabbed.

So I guess people should care but the instances where it matters are a lot rarer than against say Snake.

Grab priority is random...

 

[| Big D |]

Dun hate I read a guide before posting.

True in melee tho.

 

[infiniteV115]

I meant to say lower port number (1st slot). I'm talking a different kind of priority which is grab break/throw priority. If two players grab break and throw on the same frame then the lower port will do the grab break/throw. It's a very small advantage, but it's still something. You can kind of see as having 1 extra frame to break out of grabs. This doesn't even have to apply to just IC's either.

I thought that if 2 characters grab each other on the same frame then the lower port (ie closer to 0) will grab the other person. This is the case, yes?

Because there are a ****ton of characters with frame-6 grabs (ICs included) so it seems pretty important to me lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

What infinite said.

 

[Shaya]

Grab on the same frame is random.
(Unless I'm misremembering something)

 

[BSP]

I thought lower port won grab at the same time

 

[infiniteV115]

Samus and Ness underrated imo

 

[Baskerville]

They are, as with a few other Low & Mid Teirs

 

[PMC66]

i've been thinking should be on the tier list twice because port priority makes a noticeable change to his game?

I mean other character it doesn't tend to be anywhere near as extreme (in comparison to how it affects them as opposed to snake)

 

[Raziek]

While it might change a few matchups shifting them by 5 points or so, it doesn't make a noticeable enough difference given the other factors considered. I doubt anyone can be put between PSnake and Snake, and there's no effective way to measure difference in results.

Very unlikely to ever happen. Maybe on the matchup chart, but not the tier list.

 

[Myollnir]

Because nobody does the K prime mash except for Esam as far as I know.

gets cg'd from like 10%-70% by sopo . Good thing the cg will end before it got that high because he would move acrosss the stage.

Sopo can standing regrab until like 30-40%

 

[PMC66]

Sopo can standing regrab until like 30-40%

I'd imagine he'd be able to Falco can standing grab wolf for all of his throws.

 

[Pikabunz]

I thought that if 2 characters grab each other on the same frame then the lower port (ie closer to 0) will grab the other person. This is the case, yes?

Because there are a ****ton of characters with frame-6 grabs (ICs included) so it seems pretty important to me lol

Two players grabbing at the same time is random, but what I'm talking about is different.

Let's say player 1 grabs player 2 then p2 mashes enough to break out on frame 20, but at the same time p1 inputs dhrow on frame 20. Since p1 is the lower port, his dthrow will come out instead of p2 breaking out. If the situation was reverse, then p1 will break out of the grab over p2's dthrow.

 

[infiniteV115]

Huh. Didn't know it was random. Good to know.

It never really affected me much anyway cause I play ZSS, so chances are I'm not going to grab the opponent on the exact same frame as they grab me XD