Official BBR Tier List v6

[da K.I.D.]

The issue for MK isnt momentum cancelling, its his bad aerial mobility.

Without commenting on the MK-diddy ratio, I can say that most of the casts, including diddy's, bigger issues with MK are not pikas. Pika is very good at landing, recovering, and resetting neutral situations; areas MK takes advantage of against most characters.

hes good at all three of those things, but not to a level where he should still be landing comfortably against MK a lot of the time.

I still dont see MKs nairing pikas out of QA or nadoing jolts enough.

And by enough, I mean as much as I do, which really isnt much to ask, considering my low proficiency with the character.

 

[Cassio]

Assuming theyre thinking, pikachu should be able to land against MK most of the time. Consider that pikachu has a downward trajectory jolt that slices through MKs aerials, skull bash to re-position, one of the best second jumps in the game, a speedy regular fall and fast fall, plus the large amount of mixups he gains from his aerials, and quick attack. Pikachus positional safety at any given time is actually one of his best, if not the best, attributes he has as a character.

Also, if you dont DI correctly youre almost guaranteed to be hit by thunder. The move stays out forever, in order to airdodge it you have to pass by it so youre no longer in its path when your air dodge ends.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Assuming theyre thinking, pikachu should be able to land against MK most of the time. Consider that pikachu has a downward trajectory jolt that slices through MKs aerials, skull bash to re-position, one of the best second jumps in the game, a speedy regular fall and fast fall, plus the large amount of mixups he gains from his aerials, and quick attack.

Nado or GSL beat everything you said.

 

[Kuro~]

FF airdodge/QA beats gsl. TJ and dair beat nado. LET'S ALL DO THE X OPTION BEATS Y GAME!!!

 

[Cassio]

If an opponents on the ground when pikachu is landing QA becomes too much to cover.

 

[Seagull Joe]

FF airdodge/QA beats gsl. TJ and dair beat nado. LET'S ALL DO THE X OPTION BEATS Y GAME!!!

FF airdodge doesn't beat anything. It doesn't do damage. It just dodges (Unintentional pun). Did you just say Quick Attack a move with 0 priority, beats a grounded invincible move? LOLWUT? Quick attack has as much priority as 's up b.

TJ and Dair only beat 's Nado at the top like every move, but most smart s aren't gonna Nado in sucha way that they would let that happen. Take for example. I have the ability to beat Nado better then because I have two moves that have transcendent priority (Shine and Laser) compared to his 1 (Thunder?). Most s don't put themselves in positions to have their Nado's shined because they space correctly. If a move that has a ton of startup time (Thunderjolt) and only can be angled down in the air, then I don't see how that's much better then a giant circle around a character that hits invincibly at every angle on frame 1-8.

@Cassio: I saw that edit.

 

[Cassio]

What edit? I accidently posted before I have had a complete sentence when I meant to go advanced. I dont even remember what it said.

Anyways, the goal isnt to beat any option, the goal is to land on the ground safely. Putting aside all the misconceptions in that last post, pikachu shouldnt be attempting to land near MK where he can nado or GSL in the first place and has the ability to make sure he doesnt.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Exactly.

 

[Cassio]

lol, that time I did edit. Im bad at doing that ._.

 

[da K.I.D.]

when he said qa beats shuttle loop, i think he meant that in terms of qa gets him to the other side of the stage on the ground, so that the shuttle loop misses and pika gets to the ground safely.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If is using GSL then it's implied that is directly above him in a close proximity to get hit by it. If is given time to QA to somewhere else then has no reason to be using GSL in the first place and can punish his landing of his QA with a Nado or DA/Dash grab.

 

[Kuro~]

Seagull. Bar FD, pika has so many safe destinations mk would not be able to punish realistically. Especially if he's waiting for the gsl/tornado option already cuz he'll be even slower to follow pika.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Nado and 's ground speed are fast dude. Dunno what you're talking about.

 

[Cassio]

I cant think of any scenario where GSL would be beneficial unless pika was trying to hit him on the ground while land, which should be a rare mix-up for damage.

Ok, so MK sees the startup to quick attack and starts nadoing/dashing in a direction to punish. Except instead of going right, I go left, or down, or sideways then diagnol. Or diagnol up then down. Or any other combination of QA angles. Now MK is stuck in a lag animation, and pikachu has hit the ground with a QA free to QAC back at MK and punish his endlag.

The idea that punishing quick attack is simple is a result of noobs quick attacking predictably and never using it as a bait.

Edit: Im tired of talking about pika, lol.

 

[Laem]

QA is like the best landing tool there is o_O

 

[Judo777]

@BAM I feel like we have had this conversation before, also I did not say he had no of punishing it, he just didn't have a great way of punishing it or he didn't. Lots of things in smash are punishable, but often times things are less punishable because you don't know what they are going to do. Theoretically Snakes Ftilt is punishable on either hit every time. But it is usually considered relatively safe, because you don't know when hes gonna stop and its hard to react to. I didn't mean he couldn't punish in the sense it was impossible, i meant he didn't so he couldn't (like in the sense he couldn't manage to pull a win out).

On to what I was saying above we have had this conversation before. What I mean by MU knowledge is understanding an aspect of the MU that will give you an advantage over your opponent. It could be frame data, it could be abstract concepts, it could be minute little tactics, but if it is gonna give you an edge over your opponent then its part of a MU. So my question is this, do you think that most top level players know enough of all of the (we'll say important) MU's to where no further exploration of the MU, no small tactics, weird tricks will give them a slight edge in the MU?

 

[san.]

I can't speak for others, but I learn new things all the time.

"Oh, I see that I shouldn't jump out of shield much in this situation" or "Oh, this strategy is better than I thought when the opponent is returning to the stage" etc.

These may sound small, but they definitely build up over the long term. These conceptions are constantly challenged as one plays a variety of players of sufficient skill levels.

 

[zmx]

I can't speak for others, but I learn new things all the time.

"Oh, I see that I shouldn't jump out of shield much in this situation" or "Oh, this strategy is better than I thought when the opponent is returning to the stage" etc.

These may sound small, but they definitely build up over the long term. These conceptions are constantly challenged as one plays a variety of players of sufficient skill levels.

I think what a lot of people don't realize is there's more than one effective way to use any character. So just because you know the textbook X MU doesn't mean you are bound to win. Learning player specific patterns is just as important. Watch any top X players of the same character, look closely enough and you'll notice their playstyles are very different.

Heck I've seen videos of you and then Ryo and you guys play very differently.

 

[infiniteV115]

Excluding your broad generalizations, youre saying pikachu loses to MK on the ground because of dtilt? Try and think about that for a second.

I never said it was solely because of dtilt, I was providing an example

But yeah, ftilt dtilt and dsmash pretty much. Those 3 are the bulk of MK's ground game, after all. And they all have great range, come out quickly and aren't very punishable.

I'm not sayin it's some sort of huge advantage or anything, cause it isn't. I'm saying (imo) MK wins on the ground by a small amount.

 

[John12346]

Well, keep in mind that just Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash aren't the ENTIRE bulk of MK's ground game...

There's also Grounded Shuttle Loop, Nair OOS, ****in' DASH GRAB, and random Nados to destroy any semblance of spacing the opponent might have.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, if you dont DI correctly youre almost guaranteed to be hit by thunder. The move stays out forever, in order to airdodge it you have to pass by it so youre no longer in its path when your air dodge ends.

It's possible to air-dodge the whole thunder, just really hard.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well, keep in mind that just Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash aren't the ENTIRE bulk of MK's ground game...

Yes, I know. That's what I meant by bulk...the main/most important parts. Though I guess GSL is more important than dtilt in most MUs.

 

[Judo777]

I can't speak for others, but I learn new things all the time.

"Oh, I see that I shouldn't jump out of shield much in this situation" or "Oh, this strategy is better than I thought when the opponent is returning to the stage" etc.

These may sound small, but they definitely build up over the long term. These conceptions are constantly challenged as one plays a variety of players of sufficient skill levels.

Oh me too. In fact thats like exactly what I'm talking about lol. So if a top level Ike player is s till learning new stuff in MU's all the time that can have an influence on the MU.......... then its feasible that many top level players don't know MU's to the extent that learning any more will be insignificant. This is probably very much so the case.

And while I know I'm not near as good as ESAM, I don't think its a stretch to compare my own experience playing against people and seeing how much they really know a MU (even when people tell me they DO know the MU then I watch them and they have a lot of baisc knowledge with no in depth strategy on the MU). My character is probably about as common as ESAM's (both at low and high level if anyone considers sheik to be played at high level, if not nevermind) and I really think its crazy for people to think that ESAM doesn't have a GIGANTIC edge on practically everyone in the nation with Pika's MU's.

Btw San most of this post isn't directed at you lol. Only like the first 2 sentences.

 

[san.]

I was focusing on a case-by-case basis (which is how I learn from this game), but I'm not entirely sure if you can extrapolate that information towards whether or not one may be able to retain the overall "gist" of a matchup.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well, keep in mind that just Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash aren't the ENTIRE bulk of MK's ground game...

There's also Grounded Shuttle Loop, Nair OOS, ****in' DASH GRAB, and random Nados to destroy any semblance of spacing the opponent might have.

Banana throw beats every ground option MK has

 

[Ghostbone]

Banana throw beats every ground option MK has

Short hop fair, short hop instant toss, etc.

Don't have to be on the ground for it to be part of your ground game (so your ground options).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Those aren't ground options

 

[Ghostbone]

I consider them ground options but ok.

 

[PikaPika!]

Yall ********

-PikaX2!

 

[Kantrip]

Ground options are things that can be done from the ground.

Short hop aerials can be done from the ground.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So can full hop aerials

 

[Ghostbone]

They don't end on/near the ground though.

Edit:

FTILT
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

you have f***in 30 frames, 23 with shield drop. Sonic can fsmash and you are saying not only pika but sheik a character with frame data rivaling MKs cant do **** but spotdodge? I really hope that Im not reading your post correctly and Im a moron. For your sake. Hell for Sheiks sake. You gotta be kidding me. Next thing you're gonna say dsmash cant be punished when the majority of the cast can dash grab/ dash attack it AT THE LEAST.

Saw this earlier forgot to reply...

30 - 12 frames for reaction time and you have 18, -7 for shield drop = 11 frames, if you react perfectly. (maybe a few extra because of hitlag on shield giving you more time to react, so 13 frames maybe)

Not much guaranteed there if MK's spacing properly.
You have to predict the 3rd to punish, and if you predict wrong, MK gets away un-punished or you try and punish too early and still get hit by the 3rd hit.
Don't act like it's lack of knowledge causing people to punish incorrectly/not punish well enough, it's just MK having a ****load of options.

 

[Laem]

You're wrong, ghostbone. Every top player is capable of punishing MK's ftilt 3 on shield. With probably every character.

 

[DMG]

Ftilt 3 yeah. The mixup game inbetween hits though is what's most killer

 

[Cassio]

lol, if ftilt3 is hard to punish ganon ftilt must be broken

Seriously though, you dont even need to be a top player to punish that. Its all about the mix-ups beforehand.

Well, keep in mind that just Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash aren't the ENTIRE bulk of MK's ground game...

There's also Grounded Shuttle Loop, Nair OOS, ****in' DASH GRAB, and random Nados to destroy any semblance of spacing the opponent might have.

This.

Even for pikachu range isnt as big a hassle as having to deal with multiple options. Not that it isnt worth mentioning, but in the end we dont hear about zelda or link beating pika because its not as simple as "X character has more range than Y, so Y must lose the MU".

 

[Ghostbone]

Seriously though, you dont even need to be a top player to punish that. Its all about the mix-ups beforehand.

That's kinda what I was saying, idk maybe I didn't word it probably.

 

[infiniteV115]

They don't end on/near the ground though.

They do if you wait until you're close the ground to use the aerial.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You're wrong, ghostbone. Every top player is capable of punishing MK's ftilt 3 on shield. With probably every character.

Yoshi cant.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

yoshi can't punish a move that's -30 on shield?

how do you even play a character like that? shielding is basically frametrapping yourself against the most unsafe moves in the game.

 

[Chuee]

Yoshi cant.

but Yoshi doesn't have a shield