Official BBR Tier List v5

[Spelt]

Disregard Success

Acquire Tiers

 

[Conviction]

True words, now make them into verbs.

 

[DMG]

Acquire is a verb

Disregard in this context is an action instead of an emotion or adjective, so that's a verb as well

 

[MT Zehvor]

Blargh disregard. Ninja'd by the person above.

-MT

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Tier list position directly correlates to success rate.

 

[Steam]

Tier list position directly correlates to success rate.

Then why is pit not in F tier? : (

 

[Spelt]

I think he was joking.

 

[OverLade]

The tier list shouldn't correlate to results, it should correlate to how good the character actually is...

edit:
IN MY OPINION

 

[Orion*]

orion, think of a debate team, you can argue well, and speak intelligently and still be wrong.

No. Because in a debate team you don't choose your sides, you're just given **** to argue. This is the real world, people are held responsible for their decisions LMAO. Pretty much you make make my point even more hilarious because you're saying he can be wrong and then just ***** about how he's right. But if he does it in an "intelligent" manner then it's okay.

If I make a legit well thought argument about why bombing x random country is politically profitable, and can give great insight and reasons into it. Doesn't change the fact that it's morally and ethically ****ed up in the first place. If I make an argument about why frame perfect chain choking makes ganon not bottom 2-3 in the game, and can put him at top of LT, with accurate tech roll data and a MASS of effort put into. That doesn't change the fact the idea's wrong because ganon still sucks, look at his overall frame data.

There's something to be said for intelligent posts. There's also something to be said about people who ACTUALLY know what they are talking about, or are willing to find out.

The tier list shouldn't correlate to results, it should correlate to how good the character actually is...

edit:
IN MY OPINION

Me to

inb4 steam

 

[Steam]

but how do you know how good the character actually is? >.>

 

[Spelt]

Their tier position........

 

[Conviction]

...and how do you decide their teir position?

 

[dean.]

By playing the game.

 

[Conviction]

Lol oh really I didn't know. So if I play the game I can conclude that sheik is the best character?

Stupid response is stupid.

 

[dean.]

Sorry, you ninja'd me.

But it wasn't really a serious response anyway.

 

[C.J.]

...and how do you decide their teir position?

By how good they are.

Obv.

 

[Conviction]

Stepping out of the debate before it becomes circular.

Your response leads right back to steams question.

 

[C.J.]

That's the point.

 

[Conviction]

I know but I'm leaving before a wave comes lol

 

[Browny]

This is true... lol



There are no Lucarios in the BBR. and judging by the BBR discussion on lucario they know absolutely nothing about him. lol.

I would LOVE to see a poll on BBR members, and how many are aware that Lucarios attacks get safer on block as his % increases. That means fair -> dair/nair on shields, ftilt and fsmash starts to become COMPLETELY unpunishable on block for almost all characters who dont have an invincible upb oos.

And then of course, compare those to who call aura a gimmick and rate him lower. Yes, because frame safe attacks are total gimmicks. Why is falco considered good again?

zzzzz

 

[Spelt]

You act like shield is the only defensive option in the game.

 

[Browny]

It kind of matters when you're dealing with large disjointed aura attacks, not many can just attack it and win.

if youre going to consider rolling away, spotdodging etc well thats just pointless that applies to every character vs everyone -_-

 

[DMG]

That's actually fairly well known. Lucario's attacks later on do more damage, knockback, shield push, and shield stun. More shield stun means greater chance for his moves to become unpunishable, especially when combined with shield push increase. That's not uncommon knowledge rofl. Hell, it's MORE likely for people to still be misinformed about how Sonic's homing stall under stages works. "Spotdodge/airdodge and he dies right?" LOOOOOOOOOL ohhhhhhhhhhhhh you fools

 

[Browny]

So why do I constantly hear people saying lucario is unsafe when he approaches, dair spamming is easy to punish oos, hes predictable just wait for him to make the move etc. Not to mention the amount of people I play who rage at me (ie; everyone) because their guaranteed punishes stop working and they get hit by the second dair/ftilt etc.

 

[DMG]

Well when you talk to people about this, are you talking explicitly about high damage scenarios to them? Because Dair isn't safe on shield until you start getting high up into the danger zone, and I wouldn't fault someone for saying that as a general statement because it's true until he starts taking a lot of damage.

If you just say well Lucario can approach with Dair and you can't punish OOS, and then forget to mention that he has to be 140% or so for that to actually occur and that you are specifically referring to approaching AT that kind of %... then yeah.


Or let me ask you this. If you are doubtful of our ability to fairly judge Lucario, who do you honestly think we will put above him that doesn't deserve it? Do you really think the extreme view of Lucario being a mid tier character or being super low is that prevalent in the back room? I'd hope not.

ALSO, if you want to get into the nitty gritty...

Even at higher % when Dair is safe on shield, people can purposefully jump up at you and eat the second Dair. Why? Because you can SDI the first hit and punish Lucario. The first hit doesn't scale hitstun to a significant enough degree to stop you from recovering next to him and hitting him. Sure, you don't see it done a lot, but that's an actual flaw the character has, among others, that will be ignored under the assumption that the masses don't understand Lucario as a character and will always find some BS to hold against him. Even if the linear approaching is a noticeable flaw or even if some of his aura scaling takes too long to kick in to be useful against top tiers or how getting a stock behind is incredibly crippling because you lose killing power from being reset to 0%.

Now if you want to have a serious discussion about the character, his placement in tournament, his potential, his traits, his mains, so on and so forth, be my guest. But this stupid "no one understand my main" crap has gotten to the point where people would rather complain about no one knowing about their character instead of actively engaging in discussions ABOUT the character. So tell people why Lucario deserves X spot, instead of just "Oh what do you know, you'll put him too low anyways. Waste of time".

 

[Browny]

its well before 140% lol

and it applies to f/dtilt and his fsmash as well. Theyre normally quite safe but once you get to 140% they start to be safe from every attack most characters have with obvious excepts like sonic/sheik dash attack, mk/snake ftilt.

DMG its mostly from the matchup chart. So many characters got free points against him and besides the fact I dont recall the last time a top lucario lost to one of these ever (I follow lucs results a lot), I see so much stuff about how to punish him to KO which is obviously extremely important vs Luc. I think I remember one with ness, saying how you just shield-dash grab his fsmash/ftilt to bthrow to KO. Lucario is extremely hard to grab if he zones with ftilt and ness legitimately can not do it, unless he powershields both hits or something. repeat for many characters who while they have reliable KO moves to hit lucario with, that doesnt mean they are still legitimate at > 100% but people forget that. Fox's usmash oos is another prime example... Go to training and try to KO lucario with a usmash from blocking dair-nair, ftilt or fsmash and you'll see what I mean.

He has high placing mains with zucco (ret), trela and junebug who need I remind people place high and win tournaments going SOLO lucario. How many high tier characters can claim that? Olimar I think is the only one? Luc has had these sorts of results for soooo long and if it wasnt those guys, azen, leem, ksiz were beating top players using luc before them.

 

[Reizilla]

Sooooo, they're not safe.

 

[Steam]

hey, I don't think Lucario is overrated at all. he's right where he belongs. maybe he should be a bit lower.

 

[DMG]

140% was a random number. Actual %'s vary depending on character's ability to cover any distance gaps and their own frame data obviously. Which is fine. My point is that while general people may not know the very precise specifics about it like Oh snake can't do anything once Lucario hits 100% for Dair, 95% for Fsmash, etc, the general knowledge that Lucario gets stronger and safer the more damage he takes has been well known for awhile.

 

[Spelt]

Let's not forget that lucario sucks until like %70, which is like half of his life, if that.

 

[Browny]

Proving my point spelt.

yes 70% is around half the % he will die at, but how difficult is it for the enemy to actually hit him as he gets higher %? that next 70% is so much harder to actually put on him since all these guaranteed punishes disappear. Lucario gets safe on block and if you want to trade hits youre going to take a lot of % as he does more and more.

---

DMG I just think lucario should stay where he is or 1 up at most. Its impossible to convince people coz youve got results, opinions and matchup chart to weigh. It just seems to me like many peoples opinions were formed where they dont fully consider how much more dangerous lucario gets at higher %. All I ever see in matchup discussions is how he does more damage but you almost never see anyone mention that hes actually considerably harder to hit at higher %, its a double threat and its what makes him a decent character. This of course leads into the matchup chart and it makes lucario look so bad. His results are SO MUCH BETTER than what those matchups discussions suggest are possible.

 

[Spelt]

I'm not arguing any of that.


And i don't see how your point is being proven when i never said anything even remotely implying i'm ignorant to the fact that he gets better the more percent he has.

 

[Browny]

as in, saying that 70% is half of his life.

I think its perfectly accurate to also suggest a characters lifespan can also measured by the amount of damage they do to the enemy, before dying. After all, what good is living to 200% every stock if you cant land a hit? (hi bowser).

Lucario just cant be compared the same way as other characters like that. Assume a situation where Lucario gets the first kill and he takes the enemy to 150 before they die. Lucario might get to 100% before hes even dealt 75% to the enemy, but for the enemy to put another 40% on him means they are going to take an extra 75% in the meantime. so when we measure the average lifespan of the two characters in the match RELATIVE to each other (the only way it should ever be done), lucarios average lifespan in this situation would be 100%.

You just... cant split the middle and declare that his average life. That only applies when you compare 2 characters who dont change with %. apples and oranges etc.

oh and heres one for ya DMG...

Lucario puzzles me sometimes at how people place so with him at times. Then i remember how he ***** spotdodges with his smashes and then im like oooooooo yeah. Thats when hes good. When people forget to shield.

900000x THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the thought process which worries me

 

[Steam]

@browny- Lucario's matchup chart is pretty accurate IMO with the exception of like 3 matchups. his matchups don't really make him look horrible.

 

[Kuro~]

I just want to say...many characters can punish even a buffed dair on shield with JCupsmash. I think lucario is better than he is. Mainly because all i've been seeing lately is improvement. As well as a continuously developing metagame. That only bodes good things cuz it means lucarios have a bunch of room for growth.

 

[Spelt]

as in, saying that 70% is half of his life.

Well now you're just splitting hairs.
when he dies ... the end of his life.
they're the same thing.
stop putting words in my mouth and making it more complicated for the sake of your argument.

 

[Browny]

@browny- Lucario's matchup chart is pretty accurate IMO with the exception of like 3 matchups. his matchups don't really make him look horrible.

OK how about putting it this way

the characters around him have grossly exaggerated matchup claims against top and high tiers, making them look better than they really are.

I just want to say...many characters can punish even a buffed dair on shield with JCupsmash. I think lucario is better than he is. Mainly because all i've been seeing lately is improvement. As well as a continuously developing metagame. That only bodes good things cuz it means lucarios have a bunch of room for growth.

OK... but what happens after the dair? Im not saying its not possible but you have to consider dair-dj, dair-nair or dair-dair-nair. Its kind of important what you are following the dair up with lol since thats what makes it safe vs different characters.

Well now you're just splitting hairs.
when he dies ... the end of his life.
they're the same thing.
stop putting words in my mouth and making it more complicated for the sake of your argument.

Well jeez you leave me no option when you make a total blanket statement with a lot of room for interpretation which most non-lucario mains would not even think to criticise whether its right or not since they dont know how drastically things change in the second half of his life...

 

[Orion*]

but how do you know how good the character actually is? >.>

There's a multitude of ways.

Results.
Theory Craft.
Frame data.
Weight.
Size.
Frame.
Natural Combos.
Risk Reward.
Killing Options.
Pokes and Approaches.
Camping Ability.
Shield Options (such as oos, shield size, spot dodges and rolls).
Falling Speed.
Mobility.
Recovery.
Gimping Potential.
Priority.
Dash/Walking Speed.

Using only one thing is just ignorant to me. It makes more sense to factor it all in and really look at it, extremes tend to lead to bad things.

And then of course, compare those to who call aura a gimmick and rate him lower. Yes, because frame safe attacks are total gimmicks.

Aura isn't a gimmick in lets say the same way that like... idk Fsmashing after DDD's dthrow is or something. I think most people realize it's a pretty gay mechanic. But it's not game breaking or something. I honestly think the character still sucks :<

So why do I constantly hear people saying lucario is unsafe when he approaches

lol at lucario approaching.... >_>
Lucario can fight and zone well enough. But lucario's approaches are pretty ***. It's the main reason the character is so easy to time out, outside of the fact that aura also aids in this.

inb4 you argue fair/ftilt crap
good moves, solid frame data especially at high percent. but it's not something you can easily just "approach" with. they are fine zoning tools though

Well now you're just grinding salt

fixed

 

[Steam]

Lucario's easy to time out because he's slow as ****.

all of his options for approaching are individually kinda bad. but he has a lot of things he can mix up with.

also aura hurts lucario as much as it helps. you just need to keep in mind his base power as 75% damage at even stocks :U

 

[Kuro~]

OK how about putting it this way

the characters around him have grossly exaggerated matchup claims against top and high tiers, making them look better than they really are.

OK... but what happens after the dair? Im not saying its not possible but you have to consider dair-dj, dair-nair or dair-dair-nair. Its kind of important what you are following the dair up with lol since thats what makes it safe vs different characters.

Well jeez you leave me no option when you make a total blanket statement with a lot of room for interpretation which most non-lucario mains would not even think to criticise whether its right or not since they dont know how drastically things change in the second half of his life...

Lucario has at least 10 frames of vulnerability after dair.Maybe 15. The frame data thread kinda confused me a bit. JCupsmash with in that time span with a fast enough upsmash makes it punishable by some characters. All i was saying.