Official BBR Tier List v5

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Puff is NOT worse than ganon.

 

[Orion*]

Yeah, I know.

Sometimes the ******* has a lead though...

Hence why he's not awful
Just overrated imo

Orion, what level of play are you talking here? Most punishes against Snake don't have to be anywhere near frame perfect, not the common ones anyway. He's pretty laggy. If I shield any tilt, I get a grab or dsmash and you know how slow those moves are. If you're talking about punishing his jab mix-ups those are so fast I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume any level of player could reliably punish them even if they could technically perform them perfectly. Elaborate if I'm missing something.

Well i'm moreso talking about the followups and keeping the momentum after the initial hit than the hit itself. Snake doesnt give a **** if you grab him, he cares about the immense juggle that Should happen afterwards. Snake should just have a hard time setting up momentum even after he lands for a bit if you're safe with your option covers

While snake can always make reads off of jab its not so one dimensional as lol he's goinna shield so I grab or he's not so I ftilt, I see to many snake playerss get away with mindless jab1->ftilt or ftilt 1 grab from players just reacting poorly.

The risk reward ratio for grabbing snake is usually good for the person grabbing snake.

Depends on the character and level of play. If you aren't gonna make snake eat a **** load of damage it's not worth it lol

can't believe I am even arguing this. Look at any matches vs snake. He gets grabbed a lot. MK vs snake? He gets grabbed a ton. Diddy vs snake? Gets grabbed a lot. Oli vs snake? Gets grabbed a lot. Falco vs snake? One grab is good enough tbh, but he usually gets grabbed a lot more at higher percentages. Pika vs snake? Again one grab is all the really matters. The list goes on. Ok sure maybe lower tiered characters might have issues landing a grab, but the higher tier characters usually don't have issues, and this can be seen in practice.

All of these characters are also great at camping the hell out of him and safely racking up damage when he's in the air

Snake for sheer power/resistance to being KO'd and possibly being able to abuse his grenades to interrupt what MK is trying to do even in the air

your posts will forever be looked at with a grain of salt

Ideal star fox godlike character would have this moveset:
Bair- Wolf
Fair- irony I would rather have wolfs here haha
Uair- not sure here either
Dair- Falco
Nair- Fox
Dthrow- Falco
Bthrow- Wolf ehhhh
Fthrow- Wolf
Uthrow- Wolf
Usmash- Fox
Dsmash- Wolf
Fsmash- Wolf
Weight- Wolf
Fall speed- Fox
Ftilt- Falco
Utilt- Fox
Dtilt- Wolf (gotta be hones what makes wolfs dtilt so special in comparison to the others I might be missing something here)
Dtaunt- Falco
Utaunt- Fox
Ftaunt- Wolf
Dash speed- Fox
Up b- Fox
Down b- Definitely Fox LOLOLOLOL look at shine stall
Neutral b- Falco
Side b- Falco
Pummel- Falco

Biased?

To save the Usmash for higher percents. You Fsmash at lower percents when Usmash won't kill and to not stale it.

I mean, if you give Walcox (Wolf/Falco/Fox name loool) Fox's Usmash then you remove Wolf's Usmash (and Dacus). Walcox would have Wolf's Dacus with Fox's Usmash .

This monster would be disgusting...Wolf's Bair already combos into Dacus. Imagine that Dacus as Fox's Usmash!

Ummmm we want falcos dacus and dash attack combos not wolfs LOL

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

No.

That's how the match-up is played correctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEZj4F9wrpM

The whole first stock was so bad man

1st time he even got hit was from missing punishing a dash attack on shield
2nd time he tripped
3rd time he legit just got read cool job snake player
4th time he approached for no reason

3/4 is pretty bad bro

What? ZSS gets away with jab mix-ups all the time and Snake's is almost as fast and has more hitstun.

If you see the situation early enough first one to ftilt can easily be PSed then punished or you just wait if you see him dash grab on reaction you can spotdodge.

Only problem is if they are smart enough to punish the spotdodge. 99% arent though -.- and it's many times without a good read or realllllly trained reactions not worth it

doesn't DDD usually just try to approach from the air and then when he lands either swallow, bair, grab or utilt?

What game are you playing bro

@ jiggs debate

I don't see how bowser is grabbing jiggs

Link definitely loses though

 

[Shaya]

Sheik vs Puff is the most painful match up in the world for Sheik.

I'm not sure what our MU chart says, but I swear it's jigg's advantage.

Imagine this.
Pick a character to play against Sheik.
None of your moves ever combo on her. In fact, nearly every time you hit her, she will hit you back, and she can combo you like pretty well.
Every throw you use on her has no follow ups.
You can't gimp her.
She gimps you like ****ing crazy.
Sheik can't kill the lightest character in the game.
Sheik's light and one fair at a reasonable percent sends her too far off stage to recover without getting gimped/edge hogged.

 

[clowsui]

under that logic sheik v kirby is terrible too but most sheiks believe that MU is -1 or 0 for sheik ;o

 

[Nike.]

Wow I feel like Kirby vs Sheik is unwinnable for her
I don't think I've ever seen a Sheik beat a Kirby before. MU is bawls.

 

[Shaya]

under that logic sheik v kirby is terrible too but most sheiks believe that MU is -1 or 0 for sheik ;o

Jiggls does it better. And has the aerial mobility to make more things count, more often.

 

[clowsui]

sign onto aim so we can talk about this

 

[Poltergust]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E

What? Doesn't make my original statement any less true (that most of her moves are punishable with up-B, because they ARE punishable with up-B with the exception of a few moves).

The effectiveness of a few moves does not compensate for the rest of her moveset.

 

[Spelt]

jigglypuff is garbz.
but ganon is garbzier.
let's all shut up about this now yay

 

[John12346]

Y'know, I don't think anyone noticed we just passed page 500/1000(depending on your layout) for this thread...

Failed hype train...

Anyway, let's talk about Wolf. There hasn't been a lot of discussion on Wolf lately...

He's got a great spacer, damage racker, and kill move in Bair, and he's the only character who can land on the ground with invincibility(through shine, obv.). Those two qualities alone make for a very solid character, imo. I could see him possibly moving up to C tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wolf is better than anyone in D tier, and some C tiers.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik vs Puff is the most painful match up in the world for Sheik.

I'm not sure what our MU chart says, but I swear it's jigg's advantage.

Imagine this.
Pick a character to play against Sheik.
None of your moves ever combo on her. In fact, nearly every time you hit her, she will hit you back, and she can combo you like pretty well.
Every throw you use on her has no follow ups.
You can't gimp her.
She gimps you like ****ing crazy.
Sheik can't kill the lightest character in the game.
Sheik's light and one fair at a reasonable percent sends her too far off stage to recover without getting gimped/edge hogged.

You also just described MK and Kirby to a tee lol

Except the fair statement isn't very accurate. We can recover from a fair at a pretty high percent (high for sheik that is) if you just DI it right.

Jiggs is a fairly annoying MU for sheik I will admit but its not bad at all just gotta be smart about it. Unlike the 2 above shes fast in the air (likewise we are fast on the ground). Unlike the 2 above her moveset is garbage.

Honestly i think jiggs has probably the worst moveset in the game (at first you might not agree but if you think of a character with worse moves its really hard). It actually makes sense because if jiggs had a good moveset and great mobility you'd think she would be better which she isn't.

Most importantly bar pound we can actually stuff a decent amount of aerials with ours or at least trade and this is actually probably the only MU in the game where sheik doesn't automatically lose trades. The kill/survive ratio is about even due to her awful weight. So we can stuff a good deal of her aerials with our bair. As far as followups go against characters like this sheik just learns to stop trying lol. Luigi nairs us all day for trying to follow him up or hit him at percents where he can hit us back so we have gotten smart about that.

Just play safe throw out ur higher priority aerials like bair and you can do fine against puff. Btw we can DACUS the hell out of pound if she uses it wrong. Also DACUS kills at like 70 lol.

By far THE most annoying thing is that when she misses a rest sheik can't even kill her for it until like 100% its awful.

@John
Marth and Ike can also land with invincibility.

 

[John12346]

-___ -;

Oookay... let me rephrase that... SAFELY land with invincibility.

 

[Shaya]

Btw my opinion on Jiggs comes from my own experiences HATING MY LIFE against her as Sheik + also <3's opinions (did he quit or something?).

From my discussions with him, he wasn't sure whether or not Jiggs won the match up, but he would always play jiggs against sheik rather than playing the ditto.

 

[V]

Soooo if there's going to be changes with marth/wario/olimar/pikachu because of results, what's going to happen with sonic?

 

[DMG]

Sonic will be above them, despite being a worse character.

GG

 

[V]

Looool

Results are overrated

 

[DMG]

NOPE RESULT PROVE ALL

Geeeeeeeeeeeeegeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[V]

The problem with results is that there are too many variables that cause them to be inaccurate for making a tier list. At least frame data is factual and set in stone therefore better to judge a character upon. Let's say we have ten people. Five with IQs of 130 and five with IQs of 90. The five smart ones pick up mid tier characters and the others all pick up mk. If the smart ones have better results, are thier characters better than mk? Hell no. This is the flaw with using results to support tier placings. Players are too inconsistent whereas frame data is always the same.

Edit: Isn't frame data the reason ganon is dead last even though there's several characters with worse results?

Another thing, if we had 38 people with IQs of 160, reaction time of .15 seconds, and perfect fine moter skills, what would the tier list look like? It would come down to frame data.

 

[Browny]

Ganon is worse because of a multitude of unwinnable matchups if people bothered to hard counterpick him with stages/characters.

Or something

idk why am I posting here

 

[Flayl]

Sort of relevant to Sonic?

http://flayl.tengun.net/smash/lowtier_characters.php?sort=Char_Rating&order=DESC

His performance is a tier higher than everybody in that list.

 

[Chuee]

Y'know, I don't think anyone noticed we just passed page 500/1000(depending on your layout) for this thread...

Failed hype train...

Anyway, let's talk about Wolf. There hasn't been a lot of discussion on Wolf lately...

He's got a great spacer, damage racker, and kill move in Bair, and he's the only character who can land on the ground with invincibility(through shine, obv.). Those two qualities alone make for a very solid character, imo. I could see him possibly moving up to C tier.

he's better than his current position but he gets gayed really bad.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Btw my opinion on Jiggs comes from my own experiences HATING MY LIFE against her as Sheik + also <3's opinions (did he quit or something?).

From my discussions with him, he wasn't sure whether or not Jiggs won the match up, but he would always play jiggs against sheik rather than playing the ditto.

YEah <3 pretty much left the community. He works full time, or goes to school i forget which one.

 

[Deleted member]

he's better than his current position but he gets gayed really bad.

Please don't use that as an argument.

 

[Chuee]

Please don't use that as an argument.

It's true though.
Fox:
Pika CG
Sheik ftilt

Falco:
Pika CG
Sheik ftilt
Wario dthrow

Wolf:
Pika CG
Sheik ftilt
Wario dthrow
D3 ledge inf.

 

[Alphicans]

>_>

Falco beats wario and sheik, and avoids the pika cg better than fox by a long shot, plus he has his own high damaging cg on pika to make up for it.

Wolf gets it way worse than fox, I admit. Also fox gets totalled by ICs. Falco and wolf do not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wolf and Falco can space out the Sheik, Wario stuff, and Ice Climbers. Fox can't.

 

[Chuee]

>_>

Falco beats wario and sheik, and avoids the pika cg better than fox by a long shot, plus he has his own high damaging cg on pika to make up for it.

Wolf gets it way worse than fox, I admit. Also fox gets totalled by ICs. Falco and wolf do not.

1. Falco is even vs wario and Sheik.
2. Fox also has an utilt chain on Pika to help make up for it too. Oh wait Pika's is 0-death so none of that matters.
3. Fox doesn't get totalled by ICs lol. It's bad but not as bad as people make it out to be. Oh, and Falco loses solidly to ICs too.
EDIT: @Ryu: You're putting too much emphasis on spacing them out. Fox has his own ways of avoiding stuff like that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1. Falco is even vs wario and Sheik.

True.

2. Fox also has an utilt chain on Pika to help make up for it too. Oh wait Pika's is 0-death so none of that matters.

Not even comparable when you consider what happens with each one. Falco having a CG on Pikachu is better than an Utilt Chain.

3. Fox doesn't get totalled by ICs lol. It's bad but not as bad as people make it out to be. Oh, and Falco loses solidly to ICs too.

Falco doesn't lose as badly as Fox his keep away and out with jab is far better than Fox's for this MU. Wolf can just space his moves better which alone is better than what Fox can do with blaster and run around.

EDIT: @Ryu: You're putting too much emphasis on spacing them out. Fox has his own ways of avoiding stuff like that.

His method is shooting blaster, running away, and platform camping, which is exactly what the other two can do as well.

 

[Alphicans]

I definitely do not agree with falco being even with wario and sheik. Possibly sheik, but definitely not wario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario beats Wolf the worst. +3 for Wario
Pikachu and DDD are likely manageable, especially DDD. +2 for them.
Sheik is bad. +1 for her

 

[NickRiddle]

I've never had a problem with bowsers.
I guess i need to play a legit bowser main. Zigsa/Flayl, when's the next time you guys are comin' to FL :D

Your Jiggs, my Bowser.
5?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Next time i'm down.
Sure we'll MM.

 

[DMG]

>_>

Falco beats wario and sheik, and avoids the pika cg better than fox by a long shot, plus he has his own high damaging cg on pika to make up for it.

Wolf gets it way worse than fox, I admit. Also fox gets totalled by ICs. Falco and wolf do not.

I won't get into Shiek vs Falco because that MU is incredibly gay but rarely seen in practice.

Wario vs Falco doesn't happen often either. After WC Wario's quit, you don't really see the MU played out. I think it's even, but it just depends. FD Falco wins, BF Wario wins, SV is evener, YI is a mess, Lylat even or barely Wario favor, Delfino Wario favor, Halberd Falco favor, Castle siege Falco favor or even, etc.

1. Falco is even vs wario and Sheik.
2. Fox also has an utilt chain on Pika to help make up for it too. Oh wait Pika's is 0-death so none of that matters.
3. Fox doesn't get totalled by ICs lol. It's bad but not as bad as people make it out to be. Oh, and Falco loses solidly to ICs too.
EDIT: @Ryu: You're putting too much emphasis on spacing them out. Fox has his own ways of avoiding stuff like that.

Fox vs Pika isn't unwinnable, but it's pretty darn sour. Hard counter status.

IC's... anywhere from soft counter to hard counter. Falco vs IC's is probably just a soft counter.

I definitely do not agree with falco being even with wario and sheik. Possibly sheik, but definitely not wario.

It just depends. Falco has the "early game" advantage, but Wario has his advantages as well. Both characters at mid %, like from 50 to 80, sheer Wario advantage. Both CG wise, and because Falco loses a lot of his setups and combos. Turns hits that churn out a lot of damage into 1 hit knockaways. Where as Wario becomes highly dangerous for Falco around that % with fart or starting to send Falco further offstage with hits. Early on as well, combos that work on most characters that rack up a solid 30+% damage like Uair to Fsmash or double Dair or Nair/move can put him closer to the 50% mark where the CG becomes a problem.

Wario beats Wolf the worst. +3 for Wario
Pikachu and DDD are likely manageable, especially DDD. +2 for them.
Sheik is bad. +1 for her

This actually sounds reasonable. But I would have Dedede at or over Wario as far as difficulty is concerned. Wario is pretty tough for him, but Dedede is as well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf can camp DDD harder and has solid CP options imo. Wolf is more likely to beat a DDD than a Wario that can do the CG.

 

[Fuujin]

I've never had a problem with bowsers.
I guess i need to play a legit bowser main. Zigsa/Flayl, when's the next time you guys are comin' to FL :D

"I've never had a problem fighting ______, therefore my character beats them."

Brilliant logic.

 

[Chuee]

Fox vs Pika isn't unwinnable, but it's pretty darn sour. Hard counter status.

IC's... anywhere from soft counter to hard counter. Falco vs IC's is probably just a soft counter.

ehh, I think now with Pika having an actual 0-death, Its probably close to unwinnable T_T

Wolf can camp DDD harder and has solid CP options imo. Wolf is more likely to beat a DDD than a Wario that can do the CG.

ehh, after watching Coney and Atomsk fight Kain and Seagull, that MU looks awful. Like honestly, If out of 4 matches NEITHER managed to get the D3 player down to 1 stock I'd say it's pretty bad.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

"I've never had a problem fighting ______, therefore my character beats them."

Brilliant logic.

Obviously that wasn't the only logic that went into it. -.-
I may not be the best player in the world but that doesn't mean i don't use ACTUAL logic when thinking of MU's. ...

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf can camp DDD harder and has solid CP options imo. Wolf is more likely to beat a DDD than a Wario that can do the CG.

Not really. D3 is worst then Wario. D3 can always infinite and he's super heavy, has a high priority bair, and is hard for Wolf to approach. If Wolf gets grabbed then he eats a lot of damage. Wario can't cg till 59% and it can't be performed if Wolf is next to the edge. Wolf also can make the cg stale by forcing Wario to damage him to higher percents past 59%. Wolf has spacing tools around Wario and Wario has no projectile.

I honestly have never had a problem with Wario. I think it's -2 at worst (With cg) and even without the cg. It honestly is a very flip coin matchup. Wolf's retreating Fair and Bair spacing is hard for Wario to work his way in. Wario's moves and AD mindgames are more predictable. And D3 is -3.

ehh, I think now with Pika having an actual 0-death, Its probably close to unwinnable T_T

ehh, after watching Coney and Atomsk fight Kain and Seagull, that MU looks awful. Like honestly, If out of 4 matches NEITHER managed to get the D3 player down to 1 stock I'd say it's pretty bad.

I went Mk game 2. There were 3 games. And I should've just timed Atomsk out/played safer, but that matchup is hard.

 

[Tesh]

Isn't the Wario CG on Wolf kind of easy? I recall watching someone pause several times trying to get the Wario to screw up (in a friendly) and it took like 15 tries.