Official BBR Tier List v5

[Alphicans]

yes it does

You can basically put everyone he has at -1 down to AT LEAST even (but Diddy actually BEATS Peach and Luigi).
The only question is are they only +1 or maybe even +2?!

Snake is arguable, but imo Diddy beats him (you can leave him in -1 if you really want to, it wouldn't change much).

MK is Diddys worst MU by far. I really don't know why it is even when he even has others at -1. MK should be -1.

Other than that there are many other MUs that are just way off.
Like Kirby for example, he does definitely NOT go even with Diddy, same with many other characters that he has on even (ROB... Mario... LoOoOoL).

Can't just come in here stating your opinion as fact :/.

It'd be one thing if while doing the chart there were tons of disagreement, but for the most part (I lurked the discussions a lot), the diddy match-ups went pretty smoothly. The BBR doesn't have ADHD or gnes, but I think they got some opinions from at least one of them.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Reading some of these comments on Diddy, people need to tell me he is bad against these players after playing a diddy who knows what he is doing.

Because there is no way in hell he loses to peach/luigi, or for that manner anybody outside of S/A tier.

@alphicans: Yknow, the only 2 diddys to consistently do something in the US probably know better than most. AZ/Felix are good, but it's no way the same.

 

[Luigi player]

Can't just come in here stating your opinion as fact :/.

It'd be one thing if while doing the chart there were tons of disagreement, but for the most part (I lurked the discussions a lot), the diddy match-ups went pretty smoothly. The BBR doesn't have ADHD or gnes, but I think they got some opinions from at least one of them.

Well, obviously they didn't.

I'm pretty sure ADHD and Gnes also both think that MK is Diddys worst MU (Gnes stated in the new MK MU thread that he thinks it's a decent advantage for MK (+2/60:40).

Of course not everyone has the same opinion, but I'm sure it would look differently if they would have added their opinions on the MUs. Many MUs just look really really really awkward.

 

[Alphicans]

Reading some of these comments on Diddy, people need to tell me he is bad against these players after playing a diddy who knows what he is doing.

Because there is no way in hell he loses to peach/luigi, or for that manner anybody outside of S/A tier.

@alphicans: Yknow, the only 2 diddys to consistently do something in the US probably know better than most. AZ/Felix are good, but it's no way the same.

Yeah I agree, and although I can't confirm, I am fairly sure they got some input from them.

Well, obviously they didn't.

I'm pretty sure ADHD and Gnes also both think that MK is Diddys worst MU (Gnes stated in the new MK MU thread that he thinks it's a decent advantage for MK (+2/60:40).

Of course not everyone has the same opinion, but I'm sure it would look differently if they would have added their opinions on the MUs. Many MUs just look really really really awkward.

They might look very awkward to a diddy player, but you also gotta remember that there is the other character's side as well. I think the ROBs felt they went even or beat diddy, and chibo is in the BBR.... So it's hard to just come in here and say "yeah the diddy vs ROB match-up is wrong because I say so," because the ROBs might have something to say about that. Same goes for the peaches or luigis.

Also, the diddy's probably did have MK beating them, but the MKs felt it was even. In the end I guess they went with even. It's all about taking both sides and coming to a compromise, because I can promise you that both sides won't agree on the match-up 90% of the time.

 

[Judo777]

Yeah I agree, and although I can't confirm, I am fairly sure they got some input from them.



They might look very awkward to a diddy player, but you also gotta remember that there is the other character's side as well. I think the ROBs felt they went even or beat diddy, and chibo is in the BBR.... So it's hard to just come in here and say "yeah the diddy vs ROB match-up is wrong because I say so," because the ROBs might have something to say about that. Same goes for the peaches or luigis.

Also, the diddy's probably did have MK beating them, but the MKs felt it was even. In the end I guess they went with even. It's all about taking both sides and coming to a compromise, because I can promise you that both sides won't agree on the match-up 90% of the time.

To be fair to diddy. The metaknight panel in the BBR was absolutely enormous. As opposed to the diddy panel which was much smaller. So if you have a ton of MK's saying its even and a few diddys saying its not who do you think is gonna win?

 

[Alphicans]

I don't think size of panels were really considered in the making of the chart. But I guess I see your point, but I don't think that's how it went down. It was probably a executive decision in the end, or the diddy's just conceded. Not entirely sure.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Diddy seems like a character who just does well overall, without being a counter to any character and just having a general advantage among characters, whilst still being countered against other ones gives him the spot he currently has on the matchup-chart tier list.


Though all in all, it may just be that a lot of matchups were done wrong and have a lot of influence on the chart. Which may be an amazing thing since this has made people aware that the game changes often and the matchups need to be updated.

 

[Luigi player]

Well I can see where the MKs are coming from but it just looks unreasonable to have any character worse than MK. :\

 

[John12346]

I think you can make an argument for Luigi slightly winning the Diddy MU, just based off the fact he can't get banana combo'd, AND his Cyclone tears through the Rocketpack recovery...

After that fact is put down, it turns into a CQC matchup, which Luigi has the advantage in...

 

[Alphicans]

Well I can see where the MKs are coming from but it just looks unreasonable to have any character worse than MK. :\

Maybe, but I seem to recall seeing ADHD saying that he thinks snake beats diddy harder than MK. Or maybe he just really really hates snake lol.

EDIT: It just seems to me that peach and luigi have very unique character traits that directly counter diddy's character traits.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Are you both crazy? Luigi can't approach for anything ever. He doesn't need to be comboed. Just hold a banana, and he can't do anything remotely safe.

Yes, Luigi is good at holding him in a bad position. But he can't get him there to begin with.

Peach is weird. But people don't know how to deal w/ float, so IDk here.

 

[Alphicans]

What do you mean? Like are you implying the luigi cannot item catch? If diddy were just to hold a banana he would be putting himself in an awful position because luigi could just come up and wait for the item toss. What are you trying to say here?

 

[Luigi player]

I think you can make an argument for Luigi slightly winning the Diddy MU, just based off the fact he can't get banana combo'd, AND his Cyclone tears through Rocketpack recovery...

Except this is wrong (the combo part).

I've experienced the MU from both sides and it's really difficult for Luigi to go in and I always get comboed out of banana-throws... (the follow-ups are more difficult, but still very well possible)
The "sliding really far" is helping Luigi a bit, but it's also a curse to him (like in every other MU). If Luigi gets hit by a banana he slides back a long distance and has to try to get to Diddy again.
Diddy just really outcamps him and Luigi is way too slow with too bad range to do much about it. DownB is really helping him with this in most MUs, but for Diddy it's easy to beat, because of bananas OOS/some lying on the ground... (it's still helping of course, but it's not helping him really much, maybe he's getting a few hits in from downB, but you can basically forget any followups Luigi would get since he's too slow. Diddys sideB helps him to get away and not get juggled from Luigi in the air).

 

[Tarmogoyf]

What do you mean? Like are you implying the luigi cannot item catch? If diddy were just to hold a banana he would be putting himself in an awful position because luigi could just come up and wait for the item toss. What are you trying to say here?

Luigi can catch items. So what? So can everyone. The point is that Luigi can't safely hit diddy's shield. Fireballs are total ***, peanuts not as bad. Luigi has to approach. Diddy waits, then punishes with Glidetoss OoS or Uair if he's going above you.

Diddy gets to be reactive, Luigi doesn't. It's brawl, figure it out. Competent diddys don't just mindlessly chuck naners at you, they wait and punish

 

[Alphicans]

If luigi is above you and you have a banana in hand, then diddy cannot uair him. Diddy is going to have to throw the banana eventually or luigi will just grab. Honestly this is just a silly point because there will be so much going on, but diddy holding a banana does not **** luigi.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Loooooooool

Glidetoss Banana up, Uair?

How do you Grab? If you walk up to diddy, you have to read the banana throw (it's frame 3 oos, you're not reacting), not mentioning he's moving backward. yeah, you might guess correctly and get the banana, but then it's just the reverse situation where Luigi has the banana, and diddy can't move in. But he can pluck another banana...

 

[Alphicans]

Glide toss throw it up, then uair.... >_>.

This is gonna get way too theory craft if I explain why that is not a solution to any airborne character.

Anyways, when I look at the match-up I see this:

Diddy can camp luigi pretty well. His traction doesn't let him punish stuff on shield very well, and he's just overall fairly slow. Diddy is pretty safe until it's CQC... then it's **** for luigi.

I see luigi having great kill options in this match-up, specifically banana to upB. Diddy can certainly combo on a banana hit, but can he kill? I've seen matches played, and I've never seen a successful smash on luigi after a banana hit.

I am not arguing it's a +1 in luigi's favor, personally I think it's even, but to call it as ridiculous for luigi winning is a tab bit over the top, imo.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I can actually agree with almost all of what you're saying, except the part where it's even. Diddy doesn't need the kill IMO. Look at D3 vs Falco. Falco can't realistically ever kill d3 without too much commitment, yet he never has to, because Lazers force the approach, forcing D3 into a position where falco can just get a kill from an inevitable mistake.

So yeah, I think it's delusional to say luigi wins, if only because he should always be in a bad position. Even though he has many good positions, they shouldn't be coming up almost at all.

 

[DMG]

Diddy wins that MU.

Walk backwards, play like a ******. GG

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

[yt]HQq4XnAv4YI[/yt]

Wifi but it's something for two people who can play well on wifi.

 

[C.J.]

Loooooooool

Glidetoss Banana up, Uair?

How do you Grab? If you walk up to diddy, you have to read the banana throw (it's frame 3 oos, you're not reacting), not mentioning he's moving backward. yeah, you might guess correctly and get the banana, but then it's just the reverse situation where Luigi has the banana, and diddy can't move in. But he can pluck another banana...

It's frame 7 or something, definitely not frame 3. Shaya went into frame advance and even posted frame by frame pictures of it somewhere.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Was it for Marth though? I know it doesn't require a shield drop, and diddy has the fastest item throws in the game

 

[phi1ny3]

I could've sworn it was frame 7 or so for Diddy as well, time to look at frame data again

 

[C.J.]

No, it was definitely for diddy. Marth's is like 11 or something stupidly long

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I remember Dekar telling me it was 3, but it was quite a while ago

 

[phi1ny3]

Throw Data
(I'll upload a video later)


The frame is the first frame the Banana is active after the throw animation starts. I'd love it if someone else backed me up on this.


Ground Throws:
(Regular and Smash throws are the same)

Down Throw: 6
Forward Throw: 7
Back Throw: 9
Up Throw: 11


Air Throws:

Down Throw Air: 6
Forward Throw Air: 7
Back Throw Air: 9
Up Throw Air: 11


Misc:

Glide Toss: Add 1 Frame to whichever throw you are using
JC Throw: Add 1 Frame to whichever throw you are using
OoS Standing Throw: 7

Not sure whether this is accurate, but it sounds more like it.

Edit: found a vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8KwZCZdpB4

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Ok, so it's not impossibly fast, but still under normal reaction time.

 

[Luigi player]

If luigi is above you and you have a banana in hand, then diddy cannot uair him. Diddy is going to have to throw the banana eventually or luigi will just grab. Honestly this is just a silly point because there will be so much going on, but diddy holding a banana does not **** luigi.

Why would Luigi be above Diddy? Luigi moves REALLY slow in the air and is really predictable. Only things he can do are landing with an aerial which can be shielded/punished with banana OOS or thrown up banana before Luigi is even near enough (of course it's possible he catches the banana, but Diddy CAN follow up with his really fast and good uair, or just shield), Luigi could also go down with a cyclone (maybe hits, because of multihits and the Diddy not expecting it) or he can double jump and wait for Diddy to miss with anything (but Luigi falls so slow that he won't be able to punish anything), or maybe he can do a wavebounced Fireball, lol.

Diddy can btw just walk away and punish Luigis landing too. Diddy never has to have Luigi above him if he doesn't want to. If Luigi is in the air, but still more in front of Diddy than above Diddy can also just walk/run away. And this actually works against Luigi. :\

Diddy can also dribble and wait for Luigi to land and punish his trip, maybe Luigi doesn't land on the banana, but it just resets the situation.

Shielding against an aerial Luigi als really safe. Best thing he can do is try to hit you with downB then maybe retreat (if you don't get hit) with it before the move ends, or he can land and try to grab/jab you. Rolling can help here, it's not like Luigi is fast enough or has enough range to really punish it from the air (other than downB, misfire maybe? but should go too high).


And you can see in the vid of yoshQ vs ADHD that landing smashes out of trips is definitely possible. Just look at the end of the vid. ADHD gets a bananatoss to dsmash and later a fsmash (but Luigi lands on the banana).

 

[John12346]

So... anyway... let's get back to Diddy's MU spread and how it relates to his tier list placement, shall we?

Some people seem to think Diddy would be dominant like MK if MK himself wasn't in the game, due to his MU spread. Who believes that?

 

[V]

I don't. The raw qualities that make MK the best Diddy lacks. Without MK its fair game.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

He wouldn't dominate like MK lol, but he would be the best character in the game.

Diddy is like even with most top tiers, and multiple mid tiers. Waaay far away from MK status

 

[Alphicans]

So... anyway... let's get back to Diddy's MU spread and how it relates to his tier list placement, shall we?

Some people seem to think Diddy would be dominant like MK if MK himself wasn't in the game, due to his MU spread. Who believes that?

People believe this? Diddy doesn't have many bad match-ups, but he has a lot of even and +1 match-ups, so I definitely do not believe this.

He'd be the best character but not "omg ****!"

 

[Luigi player]

Some people seem to think Diddy would be dominant like MK if MK himself wasn't in the game, due to his MU spread. Who believes that?

It really just depends on the players. Diddy does not have as good MUs as MK. And he isn't as dominant on every "gay" CP stage. So he's not as good as MK, but still really strong.

I would assume most people picking him up that played MK before, just because he's the 2nd best character to use. Which would probably make him pretty dominant resultswise. It would probably not be as bad as with MK though.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I seriously doubt many people are willing to put in the effort required to make diddy good when it matters. Snake/Marth/Falco are just so easy to use for their output

 

[Luigi player]

I seriously doubt many people are willing to put in the effort required to make diddy good when it matters. Snake/Marth/Falco are just so easy to use for their output

Idk, but imo Snake/Marth/Falco are relatively hard to learn and play good with. Also I don't think Diddy is as hard to learn as some people may think... but he's def a different character than most so maybe people wouldn't like to rely on bananas all the time.

 

[phi1ny3]

I actually think it'd be split down between Snake, Diddy, and ICs, with Marth and possibly Wario just barely trailing behind.

I think Snake/ICs would benefit a lot from a lack of MK, especially ICs. ICs would have a barrier from making them completely "pick up and play" as always, but at top level that's not a huge issue, as seen with how popular they are as a pocket/CP character, and now they are more worthwhile without someone like MK to weaken them. Snake would be so much accessible and overall good against people who aren't MK and if they've got a strong comprehension on the other player. Falco imo benefits the least from no MK tbh.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

@LP

I don't think any of the top tiers are easy to learn (they all have too many good options, it's why they are top tier), but in comparison, it's way easier to learn them as compared to diddy.

ICs are in the same boat imo.

yeah, I can't see Falco being happy at MK being gone, as his solid MU with him is huge, and he loses to a few odd characters

 

[DMG]

Diddy banana toss is slower than most people think. Frame 7 for the banana to be active? I can grab you before it even comes out your hand.

 

[_Kadaj_]

actually it was 3-0 joe

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Imo Diddy vs MK is -1, vs Snake is 0 or -1
Then Wario / IC are probably 0 and maybe some other odd character like Toon Link, maybe Olimar too.

The rest is +1 or better for him.