Official BBR Tier List v5

[Hylian]

I actually think it'd be split down between Snake, Diddy, and ICs, with Marth and possibly Wario just barely trailing behind.

I think Snake/ICs would benefit a lot from a lack of MK, especially ICs. ICs would have a barrier from making them completely "pick up and play" as always, but at top level that's not a huge issue, as seen with how popular they are as a pocket/CP character, and now they are more worthwhile without someone like MK to weaken them. Snake would be so much accessible and overall good against people who aren't MK and if they've got a strong comprehension on the other player. Falco imo benefits the least from no MK tbh.

Ic's do better against mk than they do against Snake/Diddy...They are a popular pocket character at high levels against mk lol.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I've gotta disagree here. ICs are a fine pocket character against MK (if Falco and Pika are even, so are ICs), but they are totally even with Diddy. All my time against Dekar has made me feel that It's one of the most even MU in the game barring dittos.

But yeah, snake is harder than both of them.

 

[V]

Is falco really even with mk? It seems like he has a hard time with dair camping and planking. And I'm not up to date on the pika/mk MU so idk what makes it even. From my knowledge it seems like mk's true even MUs are diddy and himself.

 

[Orion*]

Sheik vs Puff is the most painful match up in the world for Sheik.

Not sure if it means anything but I have a vid of my jiggs beating Mr.s Shielda in a mm (my low vs his mid tier)

/should upload

Ganon is worse because of a multitude of unwinnable matchups if people bothered to hard counterpick him with stages/characters.

If they where really unwinnable wouldn't people cp them more?
Look at the results, if ganon was THAT bad he just wouldn't be the best. Obviously the margin of error for these unwinnable matchups just isn't what the raw data suggests.

1. Falco is even vs wario and Sheik.

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Your Jiggs, my Bowser.
5?

me too!

You can tell how inaccurate this turns out though. Like, I'm totally for meatriding ICs, but they aren't 2nd/3rd based on the fact that they +3/4 50% of the characters that don't matter.

Also, Diddy doesn't lose to peach or Luigi. ROFL at underrating any character so much

This

Can't just come in here stating your opinion as fact :/.

He put IMO you fool

Difference between stating an opinion, and stating it as fact. Especially when you actually have something to back it up..

Maybe, but I seem to recall seeing ADHD saying that he thinks snake beats diddy harder than MK. Or maybe he just really really hates snake lol.

In like 2009 >.>

What do you mean? Like are you implying the luigi cannot item catch? If diddy were just to hold a banana he would be putting himself in an awful position because luigi could just come up and wait for the item toss. What are you trying to say here?

Holy....

Please. PLEASE.

tell me you are trolling LOL

If luigi is above you and you have a banana in hand, then diddy cannot uair him. Diddy is going to have to throw the banana eventually or luigi will just grab. Honestly this is just a silly point because there will be so much going on, but diddy holding a banana does not **** luigi.

ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

Some people seem to think Diddy would be dominant like MK if MK himself wasn't in the game, due to his MU spread. Who believes that?

The way you asked that question was soooo annoyingly biased.

I seriously doubt many people are willing to put in the effort required to make diddy good when it matters. Snake/Marth/Falco are just so easy to use for their output

LOL not at high level

Snake can't approach
Falco takes amazing patience
Marth takes amazing focus and control

Diddy takes.... Some good reaction time? That's really it lol and some tech skill // banana control.

edit: @ above

Dair camping kinda sucks imo

Like it's cool for running time or not getting grabbed but it won't win you games

 

[John12346]

The way you asked that question was soooo annoyingly biased.

I didn't want to use the words "was banned." >.<;

But I've seriously heard people talking about Diddy suddenly becoming a superdominant force and killing the game in the face of a MK ban. I wanted to see other people's reaction to that idea, that's all...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well if MK's out then Diddy loses a -1 and has only one -1 left at worst. If you entertain the idea that Fox beats MK then it would pretty much be the same as it's now just that Diddy takes MK's place.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Except this is wrong (the combo part).

I've experienced the MU from both sides and it's really difficult for Luigi to go in and I always get comboed out of banana-throws... (the follow-ups are more difficult, but still very well possible)
The "sliding really far" is helping Luigi a bit, but it's also a curse to him (like in every other MU). If Luigi gets hit by a banana he slides back a long distance and has to try to get to Diddy again.
Diddy just really outcamps him and Luigi is way too slow with too bad range to do much about it. DownB is really helping him with this in most MUs, but for Diddy it's easy to beat, because of bananas OOS/some lying on the ground... (it's still helping of course, but it's not helping him really much, maybe he's getting a few hits in from downB, but you can basically forget any followups Luigi would get since he's too slow. Diddys sideB helps him to get away and not get juggled from Luigi in the air).

Glide toss throw it up, then uair.... >_>.

This is gonna get way too theory craft if I explain why that is not a solution to any airborne character.

Anyways, when I look at the match-up I see this:

Diddy can camp luigi pretty well. His traction doesn't let him punish stuff on shield very well, and he's just overall fairly slow. Diddy is pretty safe until it's CQC... then it's **** for luigi.

I see luigi having great kill options in this match-up, specifically banana to upB. Diddy can certainly combo on a banana hit, but can he kill? I've seen matches played, and I've never seen a successful smash on luigi after a banana hit.

I am not arguing it's a +1 in luigi's favor, personally I think it's even, but to call it as ridiculous for luigi winning is a tab bit over the top, imo.

Why would Luigi be above Diddy? Luigi moves REALLY slow in the air and is really predictable. Only things he can do are landing with an aerial which can be shielded/punished with banana OOS or thrown up banana before Luigi is even near enough (of course it's possible he catches the banana, but Diddy CAN follow up with his really fast and good uair, or just shield), Luigi could also go down with a cyclone (maybe hits, because of multihits and the Diddy not expecting it) or he can double jump and wait for Diddy to miss with anything (but Luigi falls so slow that he won't be able to punish anything), or maybe he can do a wavebounced Fireball, lol.

Diddy can btw just walk away and punish Luigis landing too. Diddy never has to have Luigi above him if he doesn't want to. If Luigi is in the air, but still more in front of Diddy than above Diddy can also just walk/run away. And this actually works against Luigi. :\

Diddy can also dribble and wait for Luigi to land and punish his trip, maybe Luigi doesn't land on the banana, but it just resets the situation.

Shielding against an aerial Luigi als really safe. Best thing he can do is try to hit you with downB then maybe retreat (if you don't get hit) with it before the move ends, or he can land and try to grab/jab you. Rolling can help here, it's not like Luigi is fast enough or has enough range to really punish it from the air (other than downB, misfire maybe? but should go too high).


And you can see in the vid of yoshQ vs ADHD that landing smashes out of trips is definitely possible. Just look at the end of the vid. ADHD gets a bananatoss to dsmash and later a fsmash (but Luigi lands on the banana).

He wouldn't dominate like MK lol, but he would be the best character in the game.

Diddy is like even with most top tiers, and multiple mid tiers. Waaay far away from MK status

You people forget something disgusting Luigi has...Luigi's Dacit (when thrown foward) is almost the length of Fd...If he gets a Banana in hand and Dacus's with it then he can get a free anything.

actually it was 3-0 joe

Ah, it was Loser's Finals. I forget/forgot, what it was. I just know I didn't win any games in January.

 

[DMG]

N

You didn't quote me anywhere in this post.

I am not amused.

 

[Alphicans]

Oriom, you are officially becoming really annoying. I said nothing ridiculous. Item catching is easy, and uthrow is slow as balls.

 

[John12346]

So... Gheb, do you think Diddy would become as bad as MK if he weren't in Brawl?
Only slightly better than Snake currently is?
As dominant as Snake currently is?
Slightly worse?

 

[T-block]

Doesn't matter that Diddy can't u-air Luigi above him lol... throwing the banana up is enough pressure, and can frame trap Luigi in an air dodge. Luigi's aerial mobility is not great. Even if Diddy wanted to u-air, he could z-drop and not lose that many frames.

Diddy just makes it super hard for Luigi to approach imo

 

[Alphicans]

There's way too many factors. I was simplifying it greatly on purpose because tam said one banana in hand beats luigi. If this were true the notion of diddy beating luigi would've been clear in 2008. I don't know when the mentality of diddy beating luigi came into play but I know for the first while, luigi was considered a diddy counter.

Luigi doesn't need to airdodge anyway. 11 frames for a uthrow? That's twice the minimum reaction time. In fact, tam said earlier that item throw forward was below human reaction time, but if it's actually 7 frames then he's wrong, especially if luigi is at any sort of distance at all.

 

[T-block]

Luigi cannot approach. Diddy punishes poor approaches. That's how I see the matchup in a nutshell =x

Luigi was probably considered tough for Diddy back when Diddy's were all autopilot throw bananas everywhere yay, which doesn't work well on Luigi.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So... Gheb, do you think Diddy would become as bad as MK if he weren't in Brawl?

Hmmm ... I guess the rules wouldn't cater for Diddy as much as they do for MK now but that's not a thing of the characters *shrug*. Imo diddy shuts down more characters than people admit though and I don't consider MK a "bad" thing in the first place so the difference wouldn't be that big in my eyes. The only character that might truly benefit from it in the long run could be TL.

 

[Seagull Joe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFTuWeb6lIA <Why Mario vs Diddy was said to be even.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3FhVWMBLE&feature=related <How Luigi ACTUALLY plays Diddy in a match.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Joe, you're cherry-picking things pretty damn hard now. Just saying.

 

[John12346]

Well, Gheb, pretty much every character stands to gain, as they'd all lose a bad matchup.

I know that characters with counters generally beaten by MK would suddenly see a huge decline in success... Snake immediately comes to mind.

But a lot of the Mid Tiered characters would probably see more success w/o MK to **** their **** up, for sure. Not just TLink.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Diddy is overrated. I always have. I think people underrate Luigi (Even if his mobility is poor). I just pulled matches of Boss vs Adhd to define a matchup. Theorycraft doesn't always work in real matches. If it did, then Ice climbers would always get grabs, which is clearly not the case.

 

[Alphicans]

Late 09 :/. Are there any high level luigi vs diddy matches anywhere? Ever? It seems hard to define a match-up with such little practice to base it off of.

 

[DMG]

???

Usual reaction time is 12 frames, give or take a few. It can be more though for something non discerning/little animation though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

???

Usual reaction time is 12 frames, give or take a few. It can be more though for something non discerning/little animation though.

What about when you dont expect something? That should add some.

 

[Alphicans]

To my understanding, minimum reaction time is 1/10 of a second, not 2/10.

 

[T-block]

6 frames is inhuman lol. The average player probably has around 15-frame reaction time. Less if you're expecting it.

 

[Alphicans]

6 frames would be impossibly hard, but the item toss would only give you 7 frames of reaction time if you're up close to him. If you're at a reasonable distance, you should always have enough time to react. Plus if diddy has a banana you can really only expect 2-ish things (DISTANCE DEPENDENT I KNOW!!!!!)

 

[Chuee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3FhVWMBLE&feature=related <How Luigi ACTUALLY plays Diddy in a match.

The next match was a JV 2 stock :/

 

[Luigi player]

I think Diddy is overrated. I always have. I think people underrate Luigi (Even if his mobility is poor). I just pulled matches of Boss vs Adhd to define a matchup. Theorycraft doesn't always work in real matches. If it did, then Ice climbers would always get grabs, which is clearly not the case.

I also think people are underrating Luigi a litte bit, but they (some) are overrating him in the Diddy MU.
I watched the end of the match and saw ADHD going in to Luigi all the time.... if he'd have the lead + camps then it's awful for Luigi. I also know it's not as easy as it might sound, but it's still pretty bad.

Also linking some matches and saying "look, proof" doesn't really work like that. You have to watch whole sets and see what happens in all of the matches. It's not unusual for players to lose a match, but losing the set is really different. M2K also lost to Lucas and many other characters, I guess they beat MK too if I link a match of them winning? Besides that those vids were pretty old...

Although I do think people are overrating some advantages and that the game and many MUs are more even than some people might think.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, Gheb, pretty much every character stands to gain, as they'd all lose a bad matchup.

Not only is this untrue but the logic behind it is dumb anyway imo. Since when does losing one "bad" match-up equal a "gain" for a character? As Wolf I'd lose a -1 match-up at worst but what I have to deal with afterwards is way worse than that. Some characters like Fox would be affected even worse than Wolf. Pretty sure GW also is only remotely viable because he does a lot better vs MK than ppl think [especially on CP stages] and the whole idea of Pikachu being a decent character started when people realized that he doesn't actually do bad vs MK at all. Against diddy on the other hand ...

 

[Alphicans]

It just irks me when you say GaW is only viable because he does well vs MK. It's not bad, but he has better high/top tier match-ups... Much better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not saying he doesn't.

But statistically he doesn't do justice to people claiming MK is his worst match-up, let alone "holding him back". I consider GW being strong on CP stages a major reason for that. All in all I see little gain for GW in the event that MK was banned, especially compared to the match-up he's exposed to more often afterwards.

 

[Alphicans]

I think GaW would gain nor lose anything if MK was banned. What would he be exposed more to if MK was banned? Diddy? That's easier than MK :/. Maybe more marth and ICs would come into play. That would suck lol.

The only CP stage GaW really likes to take MK to is RC. Frigate can be alright too.

 

[MJG]

MK completely shuts down GnW if MK sits on his lead vs GnW.

 

[Alphicans]

^ Agreed to an extent. The thing is, GaW has options to approach, but they are all or nothing type approaches. It's a dumb game of rock paper scissors, but I feel GaW has less options than MK. Also, it only takes a nair string at 0, a fair and a few low damaging moves for MK to be scared of dying. MK has to be really perfect or GaW can get a sizable lead, which is actually very hard for MK to deal with.

 

[John12346]

Gheb c'mon, did you even read the part where I said

I know that characters with counters generally beaten by MK would suddenly see a huge decline in success...

in the very same post?

 

[Orion*]

I didn't want to use the words "was banned." >.<;

But I've seriously heard people talking about Diddy suddenly becoming a superdominant force and killing the game in the face of a MK ban. I wanted to see other people's reaction to that idea, that's all...

Name one person who's opinion would have any insight/influence anywhere that said that and I honestly would be shocked.

/inb4uprovemewrong

You didn't quote me anywhere in this post.

I am not amused.

Oriom, you are officially becoming really annoying. I said nothing ridiculous. Item catching is easy, and uthrow is slow as balls.

I actually am sitting here laughing my balls off next to my computer screen though I'm sorry, like it's not even in personal hate, I can't tell between you and seagull half the time posting now anyway


I'm sorry but it's just really bad theory craft IMO
I'm probably biased due to the amount of diddy exp I had when I lived at home but jesus christ like nothing you're saying sounded reasonable to me at all.

I don't care if you think Diddy beats Luigi, because even if you believed that (despite me disagreeing with it) there are plenty of good reasons (with relatively good arguments to go around it but that's irregardless) that you could go with that idea.

But your theory craft in this situation seems really crap to me because
A. it doesn't seem optimal
B. the situations you put the characters in seems highly unlikely to unfold the way you're going with the option selects
C. when someone tries to explain why you just immediately go THERE'S TO MANY VARIABLES. there's really not, unless you want to get into some super serious theory craft which nobody was even suggesting and it was all very general.
D. That's ****ing funny man sorry I just look to have a good time I help when needed though

.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3FhVWMBLE&feature=related <How Luigi ACTUALLY plays Diddy in a match.

Reasons why this video is ********

A. It's from 2009
B. ADHD doesn't even camp very hard :/
C. ADHD won game 1, you link the the game with much less pressure involved on Wyatt's part instead of showing match 3 which would've (you assume) make both players try harder because it's for the set
D. 3rd game, when ADHD camps a LITTLE harder but not even like balls to the walls camping, and he blatantly SDs he gets a JV 2 LMAO

don't get me wrong
I think boss is one of the best players I've had the chance to play skill wise, and if you or him or anyone takes that as an insult I'm sorry. Especially because he's awesome as a person to.. But his characters are awful

 

[san.]

Diddy isn't that bad for Ike, at least. Maybe that's why I'm not understanding the Diddy hype.

His players are winning because of the portrayal of their skill and Diddy is a really good character.


Don't see much that makes him stand far above the people around him.

 

[Fuujin]

Onion calm down.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I actually am sitting here laughing my balls off next to my computer screen though I'm sorry, like it's not even in personal hate, I can't tell between you and seagull half the time posting now anyway

Changed avatar cause people kept getting confused.

 

[BSP]

We need to get YoshQ, Biglou, and Boss in for these luigi discussions

Luigi has like Sonic syndrome-beyond terrible on paper lol

 

[z00ted]

Hi!

Peach loses to Diddy -1. This isn't 08' or 09'!

Bye!

 

[Chuee]

Hi!

Peach loses to Diddy -1. This isn't 08' or 09'!

Bye!

What you mean is
this isn't 08 where people thought if could avoid bananas you beat Diddy.