Official BBR Tier List v5

[Seagull Joe]

Isn't the Wario CG on Wolf kind of easy? I recall watching someone pause several times trying to get the Wario to screw up (in a friendly) and it took like 15 tries.

Not really. Dthrow>Buffered turn Re-grab.

If Wario messes up then he will get shine'd.

 

[DMG]

It's easy if you've had any kind of practice or rythym developed to his CG in general. I actually fought a Wolf at Whobo, hadn't played one in awhile but I knew the timing would be similar to the one on Falco so I copied that and it worked REEEEEEALLLLY well lol.

Also the margin is not 59%, it's actually lower. Something around 20-30% iirc. Idk maybe that is the optimal % to start at, but I'm pretty sure I got a CG on him from like 26% all the way to at least 140% before I went for a Fthrow.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik would probably have a strong advantage on falco if falco wasn't such a freaking good character that it doesn't matter how gayed he gets.

MU is literally sheik is 0-deathing falco or close to it the whole match, or Falco is ****** sheiks face with superior everything (just about).

 

[Seagull Joe]

"A lot of these are in a specific percentage range, and keep in mind that staling out your Dthrow is required for specific characters. Staling the Dthrow means that the more you use it, the less distance it will put them away from you. The change is very small, neigh unnoticeable to the naked eye. In a frame perfect world though, every pixel counts. Take Falco for example... technically our chaingrab on him starts at 53% right? You can actually successfully start the chaingrab at 73% and still keep going along with the chaingrab. However, if you try to chaingrab Falco over 73%, he can get away because your Dthrow is not staled enough. If you practice this chaingrab in training mode, you can only go up to 73% since moves don't stale in training mode.

Falco - 53% to 120%

Donkey Kong - 0% to 100, 110% to 145%

Bowser - 0% to 180%

Falcon - 0% to 70%

Wolf - 59% to 200%

Ganondorf - 0% to 90%"

 

[DMG]

Who the doodoo starts at 20% then?

 

[Nike.]

OH LOOK, it's a purple name party.

Seagull, what's your record against the good marth's?

 

[Seagull Joe]

OH LOOK, it's a purple name party.

Seagull, what's your record against the good marth's?

I've played Kadaj in March and January. I lost to him in January 0-2 in a WB match. In March I beat him in loser's semi's 3-0 (Best of 5 for semi's).

I haven't played Neo in tourney recently. The last time I played Neo's Marth in tourney was 2008.

I can't think of any other notable Marth's that I've played.

 

[Shaya]

Tedeth's wolf 2-stocked richbrown's olimar.

I beat ted's wolf with marth.

Heuehuehuheuhe

 

[Seagull Joe]

Tedeth's wolf 2-stocked richbrown's olimar.

I beat ted's wolf with marth.

Heuehuehuheuhe

Richbrown doesn't have very much practice vs a character that counters Olimar as weirdly as Wolf does.

Marth is annoying...It's just Fair vs Bair and Wolf's combos are just much better. He also can camp Marth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Street Fighter Style:

SS Tier
Metaknight: 71

S Tier
Ice Climbers: 47
Marth: 47
Snake: 45
Falco: 45

A Tier
Wario: 36
Olimar:36
Pikachu:36
Diddy Kong: 34
King Dedede: 34

B Tier
Mr. Game&Watch: 29
Lucario: 26
Zero Suit Samus: 25
Toon Link: 25
Pit: 25
Peach: 23

C Tier
Kirby: 12
Fox: 9
Wolf: 9
Zelda/Shiek: 6
R.O.B.: 5
Shiek:0

D Tier
Donkey Kong: -5
Sonic: -12
Yoshi: -13
Ike:-16
luigi: -18
Pokemon Trainer: -19

E Tier
Mario: -30
Ness: -31
Samus: -38
Lucas: -41

F Tier
Bowser: -59
Captain Falcon: -59
Jigglypuff: -60
Zelda: -60
Link: -61


Ganon Tier
Ganondorf: -99

Props to Shippo for organizing it.

 

[Nike.]

Can marth punish Wolf's bair OoS? Ftilt maybe? I feel like DB would get shielded.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can marth punish Wolf's bair OoS? Ftilt maybe? I feel like DB would get shielded.

I don't see why Wolf would need to Bair OoS. That means your attacking and he is shielding. It depends on what attack you're doing. If you Fsmash my shield, then I'd drop my shield and Fsmash back. If you Ftilt my shield, then I can space a Fair/Bair and retreat to be safe.

I play a Marth main frequently. She's very good vs me in particular (Tiger).

And what is that list supposed to mean Red Ryu?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I don't know if this was already a conversation.
But diddy does not belong down there.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's done based on Pure Match-ups like Street Fighter, so Diddy got placed where he did based on it.

 

[John12346]

Yeah, Diddy sure is gonna be the next metagame stagnizer if Metaknight ever gets banned

lulz

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Oh okay i see whatcha did there.

 

[Alphicans]

Street Fighter Style:

SS Tier
Metaknight: 71

S Tier
Ice Climbers: 47
Marth: 47
Snake: 45
Falco: 45

A Tier
Wario: 36
Olimar:36
Pikachu:36
Diddy Kong: 34
King Dedede: 34

B Tier
Mr. Game&Watch: 29
Lucario: 26
Zero Suit Samus: 25
Toon Link: 25
Pit: 25
Peach: 23

C Tier
Kirby: 12
Fox: 9
Wolf: 9
Zelda/Shiek: 6
R.O.B.: 5
Shiek:0

D Tier
Donkey Kong: -5
Sonic: -12
Yoshi: -13
Ike:-16
luigi: -18
Pokemon Trainer: -19

E Tier
Mario: -30
Ness: -31
Samus: -38
Lucas: -41

F Tier
Bowser: -59
Captain Falcon: -59
Jigglypuff: -60
Zelda: -60
Link: -61


Ganon Tier
Ganondorf: -99

Props to Shippo for organizing it.

What is this representing? It can't be your own real tier list with diddy so low... However, if you switched falco and snake around, and put diddy after MK, this would be not bad at all.

 

[Nike.]

I don't see why Wolf would need to Bair OoS. That means your attacking and he is shielding. It depends on what attack you're doing. If you Fsmash my shield, then I'd drop my shield and Fsmash back. If you Ftilt my shield, then I can space a Fair/Bair and retreat to be safe.

I play a Marth main frequently. She's very good vs me in particular (Tiger).

And what is that list supposed to mean Red Ryu?

Oh wow I totally worded that wrong lol.

I meant if Marth was in shield and Wolf bairs it. Could marth drop shield -> ftilt or would Wolf DJ or land too early?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What is this representing? It can't be your own real tier list with diddy so low... However, if you switched falco and snake around, and put diddy after MK, this would be not bad at all.

Like I said, based on pure match-ups, "The number next to it is the addition/subtraction of the positive matchups (+1 to +4) and the negative matchups (-1 to -4), obvious even matchups are a +- 0."

 

[Nike.]

Ohhhhhh. I get it.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah, Diddy sure is gonna be the next metagame stagnizer if Metaknight ever gets banned

lulz

of course diddy is low with BS MU numbers

 

[Seagull Joe]

It's done based on Pure Match-ups like Street Fighter, so Diddy got placed where he did based on it.

I think Wolf has more then just 9 advantageous matchups. He has like 6 bad (-1 to -3). And the rest should be even?

How does this work?

Oh wow I totally worded that wrong lol.

I meant if Marth was in shield and Wolf bairs it. Could marth drop shield -> ftilt or would Wolf DJ or land too early?

Wolf's Bair (when spaced) is fully safe on D3's shield to not get in his grab range (example), however, Marth may up b Wolf. Marth and Mk are the two characters in the game who can actually punish Wolf's Bair on shield when spaced if they Up b OoS after it hits their shield. In fact, that's the only thing that stops Wolf from being even with Mk in my opinion. The fact that he can Ground SL OoS and it having invincible frames is what makes it a pain in the *** to attempt to attack Mk's shield. Well among other things...

No other move should work unless the Wolf misspaces the Bair.

Edit: Thanks Red Ryu.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Wolf has more then just 9 advantageous matchups. He has like 6 bad (-1 to -3). And the rest should be even?

How does this work?

"The number next to it is the addition/subtraction of the positive matchups (+1 to +4) and the negative matchups (-1 to -4), obvious even matchups are a +- 0."

Wolf's good and bad MU's were added together on the scale of -4 to +4 to equal 9.

Let me try and clear this up Seagull,


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Take this and add the numbers up, then what you equal to should be 9. Which is what is used to place him on that list.

 

[Alphicans]

I figured as much. Yeah it's pretty neat how well that represents (at least to me) the tier list for the current metagame.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are some odd things like Diddy but it is pretty funny how it worked out.

 

[Nike.]

Wolf's Bair (when spaced) is fully safe on D3's shield to not get in his grab range (example), however, Marth may up b Wolf. Marth and Mk are the two characters in the game who can actually punish Wolf's Bair on shield when spaced if they Up b OoS after it hits their shield. In fact, that's the only thing that stops Wolf from being even with Mk in my opinion. The fact that he can Ground SL OoS and it having invincible frames is what makes it a pain in the *** to attempt to attack Mk's shield. Well among other things...

No other move should work unless the Wolf misspaces the Bair.

Wouldnt Upb OoS from Marth be the weak hit if Wolf spaced it right? Seems like one of those where you could punish the landing anyway.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Who has an advantage on diddy?
MK? Or is that even?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's based on the MU chart made by the BBR.



-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

So Snake, Wario, Peach, and Luigi.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

You can tell how inaccurate this turns out though. Like, I'm totally for meatriding ICs, but they aren't 2nd/3rd based on the fact that they +3/4 50% of the characters that don't matter.

Also, Diddy doesn't lose to peach or Luigi. ROFL at underrating any character so much

 

[Alphicans]

It really doesn't seem that off. Diddy has no super bad match-ups, but due to the nature of his strengths (giving his opponent many strengths too) he shouldn't be ****** anyone too badly either. He's not a top tier that you wanna secondary, but is definitely a superb choice for a main.

EDIT: idk if I agree with luigi winning, but peach makes sense. Switching luigi with MK, and maybe putting falco as a -1 aswell. I am thinking mario and olimar should be a +1 too.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wouldnt Upb OoS from Marth be the weak hit if Wolf spaced it right? Seems like one of those where you could punish the landing anyway.

You gotta do it immediately when the Bair comes out or when he gets off your shield. Marth will be fine since Dolphin Slash comes out on frame 1 and that's when invincible frame starts.

Though, sometimes you will weak hit or strong hit and be able to be punished. It isn't always reliable, but practical.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Wait.
Mario is even?
But puff is +2.

the ****?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can tell how inaccurate this turns out though. Like, I'm totally for meatriding ICs, but they aren't 2nd/3rd based on the fact that they +3/4 50% of the characters that don't matter.

Also, Diddy doesn't lose to peach or Luigi. ROFL at underrating any character so much

It's kind of like how some characters in SSF4 are better due to ****** a bunch of low tiers and it influences their ratio.

But if the tier list was done that way, that is what it would look like.

 

[Judo777]

You gotta do it immediately when the Bair comes out or when he gets off your shield. Marth will be fine since Dolphin Slash comes out on frame 1 and that's when invincible frame starts.

Though, sometimes you will weak hit or strong hit and be able to be punished. It isn't always reliable, but practical.

DS hitbox comes out frame 5. Invincible frame 1

 

[Seagull Joe]

What the ****? I just noticed...Kirby is NOT even with Diddy. That's one of Kirby's worst matchups.

Mario is even cause of Boss and Vato Break. Mario is actually pretty annoying for Diddy. Dat cape.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I'm glad that my chart got resurfaced and got the light it should have gotten.

Street Fighter does it's tier list in a very systematic manner. Add up the matchups and group them based on the results. In the matter I did, groups of 10 made lists. (except when getting to real low tier where the numbers became erratically bad)

When I added up all the numbers I actually did Diddy's recount twice, mostly since I was in disbelief, but with a character that really isn't a counter to anyone and just an overall good character it makes sense. In the actual world of competitive street fighter, you dont see everyone running to chun li/m bison/e honda, which are on the very top of the list. The tier list is the potential of the character overall in the game, not just "whats used in tournament."

Also used this list as a wake-up call to show everyone they're wrong on many matchups.

I am personally not in favor of an opinionated list based based on "who's the top player using and who is winning with what"
If mew2king all of a sudden picked up like pit and started winning nationals with pit, would that make pit s-tier material? Way too much bias is put into the list, mostly because there are two layers of opinions going into the list. First is the matchup, which is a middleground in the opinions of the members of both mains. Then with all these "opinions" floating around, the back room then decides and makes opinions on where characters should be based on tournament winnings/top player usage/and placings. You have people biased on who they like and their character, which in turn gives a double bias if this said person bumped their character matchups more into their favor. Tournament results also skew it, since I believe player skill =/= character skill. Ally has won INTO money with c.falcon a terrible character. Ally's player skill is well above everyone else, and he can use whoever he wants and still place well, but he just chooses to play a character who has an easier time with everyone.

 

[Judo777]

I also feel like while diddy certainly is good on paper and has options for days, his true strength lies in the actual application of using him. Diddy has alot of what i like to call cushion room. When a diddy player messes up its typically not humongously match swinging unlike alot of other characters. Diddy's get saved from a banana lying on the ground (unintentionally) all the time.

Like I'm having a hard time supporting my point but does anyone see where I am coming from? Not even saying diddy is easy to play but he has alot of things he can always do that are safe and even when he screws up he doesn't often get hit hard.

 

[Luigi player]

It really doesn't seem that off.

yes it does

You can basically put everyone he has at -1 down to AT LEAST even (but Diddy actually BEATS Peach and Luigi).
The only question is are they only +1 or maybe even +2?!

Snake is arguable, but imo Diddy beats him (you can leave him in -1 if you really want to, it wouldn't change much).

MK is Diddys worst MU by far. I really don't know why it is even when he even has others at -1. MK should be -1.

Other than that there are many other MUs that are just way off.
Like Kirby for example, he does definitely NOT go even with Diddy, same with many other characters that he has on even (ROB... Mario... LoOoOoL).

 

[Shaya]

What's your opinion on the Marth MU again LP?

 

[Luigi player]

What's your opinion on the Marth MU again LP?

Small advantage for Diddy. (+1)