Official BBR Tier List v5

[Mew2King]

idc about losing games if i know im gonna win the set. Fow hasn't taken a game off of me in tourney in singles, i am 5-0 with him in tourney matches. The game i "got 2 stocked by a jigglypuff" was jigglymaster getting a small % lead on game 2 and then running away the entire time as i carelessly went after him. I couldn't get more than 10 damage every like 15 seconds or so because of the way he ran away (Pictochat) I just drill rushed off at the start of my last stock (might have been when i had 2 left) just cuz I wanted to **** him 3rd game. I didn't have a clue jigglypuff could do that before that happened. against cony i forgot the MU and kept trying to rush ddd and use uairs (2 bad things to do against the character). I completely forgot the MU at that point (even cony and atomsk said that; also allys ddd beat me in 2 friendlies in a row prior to that match, but I defeated him 6-1 in WF and GF just afterwords like an hour later when he used Snake and other chars) and gave up game 1 when i knew i was gonna lose. No johns and all but i wasn't really trying to win that match after the end of stock 2 realizing some of my mistakes, as id rather just go to my counterpick. That is also why I just shuttle looped into his suck up move (I was pretty sure he would do, but there was no way i felt like i could come back from that deficit I was in) I don't think that would have had much of a chance of happening to me back when I knew the MU extremely well [when I used to play with Atosmk and remembered everything i was supposed to do]). The reason I went out of my way to plank was to prove a point, that there should be a LGL. I did this to PStar, cony, ally, and others at that tournament. The main reason was because BBR would not listen to me when I told them for almost 2 years that we needed a LGL, but they kept saying to prove it. Pink shouldn't have beaten me, he barely won a game and then i 2 stocked him in rematch. I try a lot harder to win the set when I have lost a game. Generally I rush down game 1 or 2 because I'm stupid and take people too lightly (i kind of try to "speed run them" which is a bad idea in today's new metagame of camping) and if I lose like that then I play a lot more seriously the games that follow (I also kind of quit brawl after I got banned from mlg dallas in terms of not playing the game at all outside of tournaments, but still showing up for the tournaments. My familiarity with strategies and my character [Mainly that I forgot a ton of stuff, and my exection is bad now compared to before when I trained hard] has greatly diminished since MLG ending. Lots of people have told me they noticed that). Just wanted to make those things more clear, since everyone that has had close games in past half year with me apparently "should have beaten me".

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Turkeywarrior=me.

And I looked through Lucas matchup discussions and I just trust Pink Fresh's opinion over T-block (Who doesn't even main/use Lucas from my knowledge).

I don't trust the matchup chart for Lucas from what I've read/seen.

EDIT: Nairo and Fatal=Random loss???? Damnz.... And Vinnie beat Shaky.

this this this

 

[Mew2King]

As far as a tier list goes I still think Diddy is the best on the neutral stages, but with a USA ruleset MK is obviously the best because the community still does not realize how bad some of these stages are for competitive play, so I guess I will have to abuse and prove that over time too. After those 2 characters, I believe it can be between Falco Snake ICs and Olimar (Before Japanese came here and before I even heard of DEHF I had thought that Falco and Olimar and Diddy were all really good, top tier characters. Some people here that knew me in BBR 3 years ago can probably back me up on this). My opinion has changed very little in those regards. Wario/Pikachu would probably be immediately after that, with DDD right after. I think Marth is overrated, and clearly not on the same overall level as those characters mentioned above (not overall anyway) but could possibly be next on that list.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

EDIT: Didn't see your edit. Oh well.

Pokémon Trainer!

 

[Browny]

^how about pikachu rel... Yeah lol

 

[Mew2King]

that is so funny you said that reflex i just edited my post before you said that by only a few seconds. More or less around as good as wario imo. It's mainly the chain grab thing that makes him have really great matchups

 

[Raziek]

LOL, not your problem? The crux of your argument being based on possibly (probably) fallacious data is "not your problem"?

BBR needs elections, srsly.

Pardon? I wasn't on the Lucas panel, and I made sure as a member of the Marth panel that our matchup with them was accurate to the best of our opinions. I can't be held responsible for inaccuracies caused by other panels, nor do I consider myself an expert on Lucas to the point of being able to accurately evaluate his matchups on my own. I work with the data I'm given.

Step off.

maybe, but the ics are highly circumstantial--is nana there? is she in position? are you at low percent so she can come back? is she dead? and at least ness has a "holy **** what" nana killer in dair

marth is "lol got you" and ddd is "lol caught you out of the air and ten feet away also bair bair bair," they're not really comparable imo

also, falco has only one such matchup...the others, obviously, have several. no one's picking up pika and beating a good falco, just as no one's picking up ddd and beating a good ness

marth though, maybe? dk's pretty ****ty too.

I'll agree with this, my main point was too illustrate that they're not Ganon-quality -4's. They're still winnable, albeit extremely difficult, and I don't see a "random Marth" being all that effective if they Ness or Lucas plays carefully and picks good stages. A pocket Marth maybe, but nobody who just thinks "HURR FAIR AND GRAB" is gonna win.

I know that it's reasonable to assume that a Pokémon Trainer is going to lose to a Marth, and that's -3. Pretty much a loss if you see it happen in tournament. +3 is -really- bad; even if it's not an instant loss, I could still very well get dumped on by someone's "I play him for fun" Marth. The same logic applies for any +/-3, really.

Disagree with this. Match-up knowledge and experience trumps that, IMO.

Besides, you win entire TOURNEYS as PT, don't give me that "Fun Marth" stuff.

 

[Raziek]

the community still does not realize how bad some of these stages are for competitive play, so I guess I will have to abuse and prove that over time too.

Just saying, if you do it with MK, that means absolutely nothing.

Already has 1000 broken tactics, and him being broken on a stage doesn't make the stage broken.

 

[Poltergust]

and ness shouldn't be even with olimar wtf.... what ... how .... what

You'd think that Olimar going even against Yoshi would be a bit more distressing.

Disagree with this. Match-up knowledge and experience trumps that, IMO.

Besides, you win entire TOURNEYS as PT, don't give me that "Fun Marth" stuff.

Even if a -3 match-up is still possible to win, it takes an amazing amount of outplaying (and luck) to win a set against that character, even if the player is clearly lower-skilled than you (maybe they don't play the character "for fun", but even then it's rather difficult). That's why I just don't go Yoshi against Lucario. It's simply easier to just pick up a secondary (like Dedede) for a bad match-up like that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

M2k I like your tier list. I don't agree on Dedede I think he's crazy overrated NOW, not underrated. Marth is overrated. Pikachu and Olimar are top tier.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pikachu is severly overated.

 

[Raziek]

ESAM is the Pikachu metagame, therefore Pikachu is severly overated.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Chuee]

M2k I like your tier list. I don't agree on Dedede I think he's crazy overrated NOW, not underrated.

Yeah, I don't really know if he's overrated or not, but his MU spread doesn't seem to agree with his tier position.

 

[Life]

Pikachu is severly overated.

If people bothered to learn him, he'd be amazing.

See: ESAM's entire existence.
See: the CG-uair-footstool-lock thing.

He just has a high technique barrier, like Icies.

 

[Spelt]

Or would you like to imply Falco isn't viable because of Pikachu?

If we're going strictly off the bbr matchup chart, yes.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

LOL, not your problem? The crux of your argument being based on possibly (probably) fallacious data is "not your problem"?

BBR needs elections, srsly.

No.

They need people who main the characters to want to apply for it, or be easier to contact if they need outside help for something like this.

And also not go magically inactive so it becomes an issues later on.

 

[x After Dawn x]

As far as a tier list goes I still think Diddy is the best on the neutral stages, but with a USA ruleset MK is obviously the best because the community still does not realize how bad some of these stages are for competitive play, so I guess I will have to abuse and prove that over time too.

which stages are bad and why? what stage list would you suggest instead? and when you say USA ruleset, you mean the unity ruleset right?

 

[Ripple]

lol at m2K saying he doesn't try. I was there with him vs. coney. he was super mad he got caught with inhale. he was trying

 

[Spelt]

matador is over-exaggerating how bad the mu chart is.
it has flaws ... but so does every other matchup chart for every other fighting game.
and it was their first try

 

[Tesh]

Yo guys the next king of low tier is gonna be Bowser.
Im callin it.

But, doesn't he go even with Ganondorf/Zelda and lose to Link, Samus and...everyone?

You may as well put Pokémon Trainer in low tier. Despite having nice matchups on everyone in there (with the exception of Yoshi and maybe Mario), I doubt he would dominate, and I have never been to a tournament with a low tier side event, so, I doubt it will cause much issue.

I mean, I can say with confidence that he is not a low tier character, but there is not a lot of evidence supporting the statement, results-wise. Besides, who cares? Most of mid tier may as well be low tier with Meta Knight being so ridiculous.

I'd say Falcon does pretty well against Pokemon Trainer. He has his CG on Squirtle, the mobility to wait him out, and he puts some serious pain on Charizard and Ivysaur.

 

[Chuee]

But, doesn't he go even with Ganondorf/Zelda and lose to Link, Samus and...everyone?

I wasn't being serious with that lol.
but now I am serious.
He doesn't go even with Ganon, maybe with Zelda, also doesn't lose to link, maybe to samus.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But, doesn't he go even with Ganondorf/Zelda and lose to Link, Samus and...everyone?

I'd say Falcon does pretty well against Pokemon Trainer. He has his CG on Squirtle, the mobility to wait him out, and he puts some serious pain on Charizard and Ivysaur.

I'm not even sure if Captain Falcon can grab a crouching Squirtle at all, and Captain Falcon cannot camp Squirtle well. Falcon get juggled to hell, as well. Pretty sure Squirtle has a moderate advantage there.

Falcon doesn't do particularly well against Ivysaur, either. Charizard molests Falcon offstage, making up for his fat-ness. Rock Smash "trades" with most of Falcon's moveset, as well.

 

[Matador]

No.

They need people who main the characters to want to apply for it, or be easier to contact if they need outside help for something like this.

And also not go magically inactive so it becomes an issues later on.

I agree, but when you have characters with NO apparent representation, you don't just take the opposing view's side. From the outside looking in, that was a little silly to me.

matador is over-exaggerating how bad the mu chart is.
it has flaws ... but so does every other matchup chart for every other fighting game.
and it was their first try

I was more pointing out the uncertainty of accuracy than flat-out calling it inaccurate. There has been some disagreement in the BBR match-up chart discussion thread, correct? And it IS new and IS a work in progress, so yeah, there are likely some inaccuracies.

I was just reminding Raziek of that before making it the backbone of his argument.

Pardon? I wasn't on the Lucas panel, and I made sure as a member of the Marth panel that our matchup with them was accurate to the best of our opinions. I can't be held responsible for inaccuracies caused by other panels, nor do I consider myself an expert on Lucas to the point of being able to accurately evaluate his matchups on my own. I work with the data I'm given.

Step off.

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

I wasn't holding you responsible for any issues with the Lucas/Ness match-ups with my comment. I was referring to how you disregarded how a chart that YOU were a part of may be unreliable and tried to use it as a main point of your argument. You didn't even acknowledge that it could be incorrect. Or rather, you did, but stated that it was "not my problem".

Was caught off-guard by that.

Also, my apologies for derailing (?) the thread...

 

[Steam]

maybe to samus.

Bowser gets hard countered by samus.

camp all day

 

[-LzR-]

How does Samus actually camp? Are her moves safe against him or is the just faster than Bowser?
Because there must be more than just missiles and **** as they just shouldn't work like that.

 

[_Dice]

How does Samus actually camp? Are her moves safe against him or is the just faster than Bowser?
Because there must be more than just missiles and **** as they just shouldn't work like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMl90Oyb9nI
Watch first stock. repeat three times

 

[Coney]

Just wanted to make those things more clear, since everyone that has had close games in past half year with me apparently "should have beaten me".

don't put me in the same boat with the other people you've played. match one you played poorly, anyone could see that, but match three after you made all these so-called "adjustments" i still took off the first stock and kept it relatively close, even with you abusing a tactic you yourself propose is broken. "should've" is the wrong word, but "could've" is certainly a possibility. don't write me off like i was some transparent chump that you figured out, and don't disrespect me by saying you didn't really try against me. in our set, neither of us knows what would've happened.

i can understand frustration at people saying any of us "should have" beaten you, it's stupid. that's a stupid way of thinking. if we SHOULD HAVE beat you, we WOULD HAVE. but don't disrespect pink fresh, a very good friend of mine, and myself on their behalf.

lol at m2K saying he doesn't try. I was there with him vs. coney. he was super mad he got caught with inhale. he was trying

brawwwwl staaaaar

 

[Yink]

and ness shouldn't be even with olimar wtf.... what ... how .... what

I actually agree with you. I think it's in Oli's favor.

Also, heh at the Ness vs Lucas thing. I swear it comes up all the time.

 

[Psychoace]

I'm not even sure if Captain Falcon can grab a crouching Squirtle at all, and Captain Falcon cannot camp Squirtle well. Falcon get juggled to hell, as well. Pretty sure Squirtle has a moderate advantage there.

Falcon doesn't do particularly well against Ivysaur, either. Charizard molests Falcon offstage, making up for his fat-ness. Rock Smash "trades" with most of Falcon's moveset, as well.

Falcon can in fact grab squirtle when he is crouched. Even though squirtle does **** us, I fear charizard more namely because as you said he has us in the offstage department, and with rock smash. Ivysaur I'm not to worried about, because we can actually gimp. If they change from ivysaur to charizard for tanking the rest of the stock sometimes we can get a falcon punch if they **** it up or we can get molested by him again, though nair works on him for combos into grabs. That then leaves us fighting squirtle all over again and is normally the game finisher. I think vs. squirtle is stage dependent because if it goes uninterrupted we can finish the grab release with an offstage knee. The danger with squirtle is letting him come in so we can grab/fight him, but it's a double edged sword as he'll juggle us. I would rather fight pokemon trainer than Ike though and he's a -1/0 (depending on who you ask).

I would also like to add on to why the Captain sucks. We have to ****ing rep lol... so our metagame is dead. I think we still have some potential it's just not being taped. And yes our priority sucks. cept falcon kick > tornado. ;p

 

[Orion*]

Besides, the fact that those matchups revolve around grabs just means both Lucas and Ness must play the matches as if they were against ICs.

That's not really the best comparison.... -.-

I had thought that Falco and Olimar and Diddy were all really good, top tier characters.

I can vouch for that just from talking to you in like 08/09

I still remember your no banana diddy beating velocity LOOOL

I work with the data I'm given.

This explains so much..

Just saying, if you do it with MK, that means absolutely nothing.

Already has 1000 broken tactics, and him being broken on a stage doesn't make the stage broken.

Just because youre pro Ban doesnt mean the rest of the world is,

which stages are bad and why? what stage list would you suggest instead? and when you say USA ruleset, you mean the unity ruleset right?

I'm really curious about this actually

lol at m2K saying he doesn't try. I was there with him vs. coney. he was super mad he got caught with inhale. he was trying

ROFL

 

[Mew2King]

@ cony - I know that but it's quite annoying when anyone comes close in any games they "should have" won. I "should have" lost to tons of different people if winning close games means I should have lost. It gets really annoying to hear that all the time. I don't mean disrespect I was just trying to clear that up. I understand I speak a lot out of frustration so i apoloize for that

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu is severly overated.

At the moment that's not possible and very likely the opposite of true. Theres no way pika is lower than where he is now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Falcon can in fact grab squirtle when he is crouched. Even though squirtle does **** us, I fear charizard more namely because as you said he has us in the offstage department, and with rock smash. Ivysaur I'm not to worried about, because we can actually gimp. If they change from ivysaur to charizard for tanking the rest of the stock sometimes we can get a falcon punch if they **** it up or we can get molested by him again, though nair works on him for combos into grabs. That then leaves us fighting squirtle all over again and is normally the game finisher. I think vs. squirtle is stage dependent because if it goes uninterrupted we can finish the grab release with an offstage knee. The danger with squirtle is letting him come in so we can grab/fight him, but it's a double edged sword as he'll juggle us. I would rather fight pokemon trainer than Ike though and he's a -1/0 (depending on who you ask).

I would also like to add on to why the Captain sucks. We have to ****ing rep lol... so our metagame is dead. I think we still have some potential it's just not being taped. And yes our priority sucks. cept falcon kick > tornado. ;p

While both Squirtle and Wario get grab-release molested, Squirtle's aerials are generally better than Wario's for poking a character like Falcon (especially with shellshifts and shellstalls), and Squirtle has a nice ground game. I assure you that Squirtle's tilts will make grabbing him with Falcon very, very difficult.

I don't know why that's your reasoning for not fearing Ivysaur--Charizard is easier to gimp with Falcon than Ivysaur. Ivysaur has plenty of ways to keep Falcon on his toes, though Captain Falcon's speed in the air can be a problem. It's not as easy to combo Ivysaur as it is to combo Charizard, but you get more out of grabs (don't you get grab-release U-Air on Ivysaur?). I would say that Ivysaur probably edgeguards Falcon better than Charizard, because Charizard needs specific distances and timing to land stuff on Falcon, whereas Ivysaur just needs to D-Air offstage at some point, and ledge invincibility can give Ivysaur an easy N-Air spike.

As an aside, you will -never- get a Falcon Punch on a competent Pokémon Trainer. >_>

 

[Steam]

As an aside, you will -never- get a Falcon Punch on a competent Pokémon Trainer. >_>

Apparently some Falcons think they can punish lucario's recovery with falcon punch.

besht move in game for a reason bro.

 

[Raziek]

Just because youre pro Ban doesnt mean the rest of the world is,

This doesn't have anything to do with me being pro-ban. This has to do with the fact that MK breaks half of the stages in the game ALREADY, so adding another one to the list means nothing.

There are plenty of stages that MK breaks that are otherwise completely legitimate, which is why I say it will mean nothing to me unless it's a character other than MK.

What we're talking about otherwise is the functional equivalent of saying you can hit a bullseye target from 50m away, then pulling out a gatling gun and spraying the **** out of the course. Of course you'll hit it, because your tool is broken!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

At the moment that's not possible and very likely the opposite of true. Theres no way pika is lower than where he is now.

IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE.

I'm not trying to make fun of you, but it's weird to see such an adamant response. A little funny.

Disagree with this. Match-up knowledge and experience trumps that, IMO.

Besides, you win entire TOURNEYS as PT, don't give me that "Fun Marth" stuff.

Well, Pokémon Trainer can generally benefit from the opponent's lack of match-up experience more than other characters partly because no one plays him (which isn't really uncommon among the lower half of the tier list), and partly because there's three different movesets/playstyles that must be accounted for and adapted to, making it difficult to learn on the fly.

Still, in a perfect world, people would understand all of their match-ups and would have at least some experience under their belts, and it is in that case that Pokémon Trainer struggles.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK breaks half of the stages in the game ALREADY, so adding another one to the list means nothing.

There are plenty of stages that MK breaks that are otherwise completely legitimate

All of that is wrong.

RC is broken with or without MK
Brinstar is questionable with or without MK
All other stages MK is not broken on.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

All of that is wrong.

RC is broken with or without MK
Brinstar is questionable with or without MK
All other stages MK is not broken on.

What other characters break Rainbow Cruise?

Hell, what other characters break SMASHVILLE?

People complained about how Port Town was busted because fighting Meta Knight without having ledges to help you was too much. Apparently, stages are broken because they have ledges, and stages are broken because they -don't- have ledges. :/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What other characters break Rainbow Cruise?

It's not the character, it's the stage. RC is broken period.

Hell, what other characters break SMASHVILLE?

The stage isn't broken.

People complained about how Port Town was busted because fighting Meta Knight without having ledges to help you was too much. Apparently, stages are broken because they have ledges, and stages are broken because they -don't- have ledges. :/

You don't ban stages because of characters.
Either a stage is broken or is not. RC is broken, PTAD is quite broken, Brinstar is borderline. Smashville is perfectly OK. No need to misconstrue simple logic for a srubby attempt to make MK look uncompetitive. It's not him that's uncompetitive.

 

[BSP]

How is brinstar broken?

@Gheb- technically with planking he's broken no matter where you take him lol