Official BBR Tier List v5

[Seagull Joe]

Bowser beats Sonic who is high tier .

 

[Jimmyfosho]

E: [insert char here that might replace Yoshi though I do not think it is needed], Lucas, Bowser, Mario
F: Samus, Captain Falcon, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

low tier imo.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

E: PT, Lucas, Bowser, Mario
F: Captain Falcon, (Samus, Link), Zelda
G: Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

() = debatable on order.

Jigglypuff just sucks balls in Brawl. She's built for Melee but slightly nerfed, and this ain't Melee. At least Zelda can kill somebody if they incredibly stupid without sitting RIGHT on top of them, and can taunt Bowser/Ganondorf for being so slow by spamming Din's Fire at them.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You may as well put Pokémon Trainer in low tier. Despite having nice matchups on everyone in there (with the exception of Yoshi and maybe Mario), I doubt he would dominate, and I have never been to a tournament with a low tier side event, so, I doubt it will cause much issue.

I mean, I can say with confidence that he is not a low tier character, but there is not a lot of evidence supporting the statement, results-wise. Besides, who cares? Most of mid tier may as well be low tier with Meta Knight being so ridiculous.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Ness is low tier and Lucas is mid tier.

 

[Raziek]

I think Ness is low tier and Lucas is mid tier.

Are you high?

I ask because of the date, because you.... I don't..... no.

 

[Matador]

I think Ness is low tier and Lucas is mid tier.

I agree with this, lmao

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I could see that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

since it was just brought up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5x2jyooU8o

i mean shes still not good, but she def not triforce tier.

 

[Orion*]

I don't think jiggs is that bad either lol

def low tier though

 

[TheReflexWonder]

U-Tilt is a KO move?

Oh, boy. I had no idea. I feel dumb.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Are you high?

I ask because of the date, because you.... I don't..... no.

Reasons to convince me otherwise?

A Lucas has taken a game off M2k too and Ness hasn't from what I can remember .

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Jigglypuff is simply a melee puff in brawl physics with a reduced rest and different airdodge. Other than that, i do not think much has changed, but the differences in ranking...

 

[Orion*]

U-Tilt is a KO move?

Oh, boy. I had no idea. I feel dumb.

Its like Diddys, works pretty well on light characters, but if you know youre getting hit by it you can DI it really well and live super long.... Thankfully the reason both moves are good is they come out relatively fast to react to and most people don't know wtf jiggs is doing/going for anyway

I actually have a vid of my jiggz beating Mr.Rs Shelda in a mm
I might try to upload it later roflmao

 

[Raziek]

Reasons to convince me otherwise?

A Lucas has taken a game off M2k too and Ness hasn't from what I can remember .

Pretty sure FOW took a game off him, I seem to remember hearing they went to Game 5 at some point.

And then there's Shaky. You know, placed well at MLG with Ness? Where's Lucas?

To my knowledge, results support Ness far more than Lucas. I'll look at their matchups in a moment.

 

[Laem]

I'm kind of inclined to believe 2nd worst character is in fact good ol' cap' Falcon.
he's just.. bad. no disjoints, low attack speed, fairly poor range, nothing special regarding movement except dash. He's really just jab grab uair lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Reasons to convince me otherwise?

A Lucas has taken a game off M2k too and Ness hasn't from what I can remember .

1. FOW has taken games off of m2k, and like raz said, theres have been many more results showing ness is better than lucas.
2. JIGGLYPUFF has TWO STOCKED m2k before. just because hes the best player doesnt mean who he beats and loses to directly correlates to the tier list. thats a terrible concept.
3. everyone and their moms has taken a game off of m2k, then he realises that hes playing mk, and just molests them or camps their balls off the rest of the set. see: coney 3 stocking him at siis.

I'm kind of inclined to believe 2nd worst character is in fact good ol' cap' Falcon.
he's just.. bad. no disjoints, low attack speed, fairly poor range, nothing special regarding movement except dash. He's really just jab grab uair lol.

i dont know whats more disappointing, the fact that he only has 3 moves, or the fact that those 3 moves still make him better than at least 1-2 characters in this game.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pretty sure FOW took a game off him, I seem to remember hearing they went to Game 5 at some point.

And then there's Shaky. You know, placed well at MLG with Ness? Where's Lucas?

To my knowledge, results support Ness far more than Lucas. I'll look at their matchups in a moment.

MLG DC:

Shaky3's performance
Winners' bracket
Bye
Defeated _Pane_
Lost to Vinnie_C

Losers' bracket
Defeated toobusy2care
Lost to turkeywarrior


Overall placing: 49/174

Winners' bracket
Bye
Defeated Itsamii10
Lost to FatalMatt

Losers' bracket
Defeated MulticolorShyGuy
Defeated Snakeeee
Lost to Nairo-Booty-Warrior


Overall placing: 33/174

Pink placed higher at the Mlg they both went to...Yeah, what?

Their matchups are almost identical according to matchup chart.

Results-wise, Pink Fresh's results are the same as Fow (Who uses Mk a lot) and Shaky.

 

[Raziek]

[collapse=Ness]
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
[/collapse]
vs.

[collapse=Lucas]
-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
[/collapse]

So, let's compare and contrast, here.

Ness suffers -3's with Marth and Dedede. Lucas has a -4 with DK, and -3's with Marth, Snake, Sheik and Shelda. Advantage: Clearly Ness.

In terms of matchups with high tiers, Lucas has NO advantages, or even EVENS with any high tier character. His best high-tier matchup is SONIC at 0.

Meanwhile, Ness goes even with Olimar, Pikachu and Fox.

Looking specifically at High tier matchups (disadvantages, this time), Lucas is -2 with MK, -3 with Snake, -2 Diddy, Olimar, Wario, Dedede, GW, TL and most of B (and some of C tier). Lucas is essentially -2 or worse with every viable character sans Falco, ICs, Lucario, ZSS, Pikachu, Fox, and Rob, who are -1.

Ness has his aforementioned -3's with Dedede and Marth, but boasts a better matchup against Snake (-2) a -1 against Diddy and most of the same characters Lucas has.

With a -4 and no remotely better matchups than Ness among the high tier, I don't know how it can even be CONSIDERED that Lucas is better than Ness.

 

[Raziek]

Edit: Disregard, I read the post too quickly and made a mistake.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Assuming Vinnie_C is the Vinnie we know and love, that's a far more impressive win than defeating Snakeeeee. The rest are randoms.

Higher placing =/= better performance.

Turkeywarrior=me.

And I looked through Lucas matchup discussions and I just trust Pink Fresh's opinion over T-block (Who doesn't even main/use Lucas from my knowledge).

I don't trust the matchup chart for Lucas from what I've read/seen.

EDIT: Nairo and Fatal=Random loss???? Damnz.... And Vinnie beat Shaky.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, Ness mains are also confident that they go -2 against PT, which is....questionable, to say the least.

 

[Matador]

Match-up comparison

This assumes that these match-ups are correct. From my understanding, there's been contention regarding how accurate the BBR match-up chart is, and it's been said that the chart is a work in progress.

 

[smashkng]

If Falcon just didn't have such stupid high hitboxes in his aerials, he has to wait a little bit to hit a grounded opponent with an aerial, which can then already be reacted to. I believe those situational hitboxes combined with his pretty unsafe grounded approach are the reason he sucks.

 

[Espy Rose]

Woah, woah, woah, Raziek. Since when was Sonic a high tier character?
Ness is probably better than Lucas, by the way.

 

[z00ted]

Raziek basically just said everything that needed to be said.

Shaky and FOW's performances also blow Lucas out of the picture.

 

[Thebest1pj]

pink should have beat m2k.

till someone came over and coached m2k against him =[

 

[Spelt]

lol @ sonic high tier.

and ness shouldn't be even with olimar wtf.... what ... how .... what

 

[z00ted]

Rich Brown loses to FOW?

Ness immediately goes even against Olimar.

 

[Spelt]

fow probably planks.
cheating *******

 

[Chuee]

Raziek basically just said everything that needed to be said.

Shaky and FOW's performances also blow Lucas out of the picture.

FOW is good, however he uses a second, and Shaky isn't very consistent. FOW is good, but honestly from what I heard M2K and Larry destroyed him at Winterfest, despite him beating Rich, Tyrant, and Havok. Rich and Havok were more than likely MU inexperience, while I've heard Tyrant only lost because FOW spiked him or something. Shaky places good sometimes, while places mediocre others. He did good at Dallas and Columbus. He beat Bassem and Biglou at Dallas, while losing to Espy and Larry (who I heard also won pretty easily). The last FL tourney he went to, he got below top 10 I think, losing to CO18 and Bunnyma (snake)

pink should have beat m2k.

till someone came over and coached m2k against him =[

same thing happened to him over a year ago when he was playing ADHD
EDIT: RB got like 2 stocked by FOW, not a valid aruement for it being even lol.

 

[Raziek]

This assumes that these match-ups are correct. From my understanding, there's been contention regarding how accurate the BBR match-up chart is, and it's been said that the chart is a work in progress.

Not my problem, and there's still no argument unless you get past Lucas's -4 and multiple -3's. Ness only has to worry about Marth and Dedede.

Woah, woah, woah, Raziek. Since when was Sonic a high tier character?
Ness is probably better than Lucas, by the way.

I worded it slightly confusing.

Sonic is the HIGHEST TIER matchup that is Even or in Lucas's favor.

And when you can't go even with anyone important besides SONIC, you're playing a bad character.

 

[Spelt]

Not my problem, and there's still no argument unless you get past Lucas's -4 and multiple -3's. Ness only has to worry about Marth and Dedede.

doesn't matter, a hard counter is a hard counter.
aka ness should still be just as unviable as lucas.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not my problem, and there's still no argument unless you get past Lucas's -4 and multiple -3's. Ness only has to worry about Marth and Dedede.

And Pokémon Trainer. >:/

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, Zard rocks the little bugger

no pun intended

 

[Raziek]

-3 isn't strictly impossible, it's just really damn difficult.

Besides, the fact that those matchups revolve around grabs just means both Lucas and Ness must play the matches as if they were against ICs.

Or would you like to imply Falco isn't viable because of Pikachu?

 

[Matador]

Not my problem, and there's still no argument unless you get past Lucas's -4 and multiple -3's. Ness only has to worry about Marth and Dedede.

LOL, not your problem? The crux of your argument being based on possibly (probably) fallacious data is "not your problem"?

BBR needs elections, srsly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, Zard rocks the little bugger

As an aside, Squirtle does even better.

 

[Coney]

Besides, the fact that those matchups revolve around grabs just means both Lucas and Ness must play the matches as if they were against ICs.

Or would you like to imply Falco isn't viable because of Pikachu?

maybe, but the ics are highly circumstantial--is nana there? is she in position? are you at low percent so she can come back? is she dead? and at least ness has a "holy **** what" nana killer in dair

marth is "lol got you" and ddd is "lol caught you out of the air and ten feet away also bair bair bair," they're not really comparable imo

also, falco has only one such matchup...the others, obviously, have several. no one's picking up pika and beating a good falco, just as no one's picking up ddd and beating a good ness

marth though, maybe? dk's pretty ****ty too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I know that it's reasonable to assume that a Pokémon Trainer is going to lose to a Marth, and that's -3. Pretty much a loss if you see it happen in tournament. +3 is -really- bad; even if it's not an instant loss, I could still very well get dumped on by someone's "I play him for fun" Marth. The same logic applies for any +/-3, really.