Legan
Smash Lord
laaaaaawl you so craaaazeh
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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laaaaaawl you so craaaazeh
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Neutral position is favorable to one character or the other depending on the MU, for example Marth v. G&W the neutral position results in Marth's superior zoning game putting him at an advantage, meaning he's more likely to win in the exchanges that occur and establish future more beneficial positions.i dunno i think every position is favorable for one person or the other. unless you're both dead. but then whoever died later would have more invincibility
It's only "neutral" in the sense that one player hasn't actively developed an advantage.
Does anyone know whether Wario's "bike armor" is super or heavy armor?
I'm not sure if it's based on knockback (a la Yoshi) or percent per hit (which would be around 3%).
I'm not sure if it's based on knockback (a la Yoshi) or percent per hit (which would be around 3%).
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
yoshis armor is it's own thing though, very similar to the other two, but not the same. I don't know how warios works but there's a possibility it could be the same but weaker.
Albert.
Smash Master
Why hasn't anybody linked Pierce (marth) vs Atomsk (Ganon)
?
?
OnlyUseMeNades
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2010
- Messages
- 325
Wait what's the difference between super and heavy armor?
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
Super Armor is non-interruptible frames, unless grabbed. Take Ike's neutral b. He has some Super Armor just as he strikes his sword on the ground, and he will continue to strike his sword to the ground even though he is being hit. Heavy Armor is interruptible if one hits the person hard enough. Snake on his cipher is hard armor. I don't remember the exact damage he has to receive in order to be knocked out of it. Also, one can grab people out of Heavy Armor.
OnlyUseMeNades
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2010
- Messages
- 325
So you can be grabbed out of both?
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
Yes, that is correct.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
cypher requires an attack that does 7% or more in one hit to break it.
only vid I found was friendlies from almost a year ago where pierce was just rushing him constantly with no regard to his own safety and doing a bunch of gimmicky stuff...
marth destroys ganon btw, from my experience playing verm quite a bit I think that he honestly does even better than MK in this MU, you can literally just wait and **** even if your reaction time is horrid like mine is lmao
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I wonder what the official terminology for Kirby's stone hurtbox is, because iirc after it soaks up enough damage (although it takes an awful lot to do that) an attack will break through. Maybe just conditional Invincibility frames?
I might find it in the Smash Lab official terminology, but iirc we haven't covered that.
I might find it in the Smash Lab official terminology, but iirc we haven't covered that.
Poltergust
Smash Master
I thought it was 6%?
Anyways, there appears to be two types of heavy-armor in this game: percentage-based and knockback-based. Snake's is percentage-based while Yoshi's is knockback-based. Unfortunately, I do not know which category Wario's Bike falls under. Diddy's up-B also has heavy-armor while he's charging, which I believe is percentage-based since he can get knocked out of it by a banana (which has no knockback, I think).
Can Wario get knocked out of his Bike by a banana? If he can then his is also percentage-based.
Poltergust
Smash Master
^Like I said before, heavy-armor comes in two types: percentage-based and knockback-based. It's not just percentage-based.
Ussi
Smash Legend
kirby doesn't take damage when his stone is broken but Yoshi takes damage when his jump armor is broken.
Pit's mirror breaks at 60% collectively but don't think that matters.
Pit's mirror breaks at 60% collectively but don't think that matters.
Poltergust
Smash Master
I didn't know that. I thought they had unlimited "health" in Brawl, unlike Melee.That goes for all reflectors, though. Remember? Reflectors can break in this game.
Does it act like a shield break when a reflector broken?
No, I've definitely seen myself take slight damage and still ram someone with my bike without falling off.
- Joined
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- 11,841
oh woops, read your post wrong.^Like I said before, heavy-armor comes in two types: percentage-based and knockback-based. It's not just percentage-based.
but wouldn't that still basically be the same thing, since knockback is affected by damage?
and i don't think reflectors can break in brawl. except mirror shield, apparently. but it works differently, so it would make sense if it was the only one that could break.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Nope, the projectile gets buffed so many times after being reflected back and forth that it'll instantly kill whoever it hits.
Nope, because percentage-based heavy-armor doesn't taie knockback into consideration at all. For example, Mario's up-B will knock Yoshi out of his double-jump at 0%, but since each individual hit does little damage it won't knock Snake out of his Cipher. Conversely, an egg will knock Snake out of his Cipher since the explosion does more than 6%, but it has no chance of knocking Yoshi out of his double-jump at any reasonable percentage.
EDIT: Trust me, ALL reflectors can break. Don't you guys remember the info from the Dojo?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
charging diddys up b has armor?
never noticed since i never attempted to hit hit out of it until hestarts rising.
and i think the beginning of the bike spawn for wario just has straight up super armor, but only for a short time, after that point it becomes the whole, bike is invinicible so you ahve to hit wario, thing.
never noticed since i never attempted to hit hit out of it until hestarts rising.
and i think the beginning of the bike spawn for wario just has straight up super armor, but only for a short time, after that point it becomes the whole, bike is invinicible so you ahve to hit wario, thing.
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
I don't remember exactly if this is true or not, but I think the first three hits of Snake's N-air won't hit Diddy out of his Up-b while he's charging it.
Yes, what Poltegust says about reflectors breaking is true.
I don't think it takes 60% damage to break Kirby's stone. I think it's somewhere around 30%. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zNXdV3S2pA&t=18s
I don't have videos of the first two instances, but I'm pretty sure they're floating around on the internet. If not, I can upload something.
Yes, what Poltegust says about reflectors breaking is true.
I don't think it takes 60% damage to break Kirby's stone. I think it's somewhere around 30%. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zNXdV3S2pA&t=18s
I don't have videos of the first two instances, but I'm pretty sure they're floating around on the internet. If not, I can upload something.
Nitpick but if a move does exactly 7% damage it won't break the cypher armor, it must do slightly more.
Clai
Smash Lord
Marth can't Uair-Uair-Shuttle Loop-Go offstage-Dair-Metaknight Da Bess.
Don't get me wrong, Marth wrecks Ganon too, but he does it differently from Metaknight. Marth keeps it close to the neutral zone and simply outzones and walls Ganon's approaches. Metaknight rushes all in and keeps the pressure going until he forces Ganon's hand in the neutral zone, takes him offstage and gimps him mercilessly. The shear speed and ferocity an agressive MK can take a stock off Ganon makes it a far worse matchup than Marth is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiDSAO3cjMo#t=00m27s
Marth wishes he can do this.
Poltergust
Smash Master
That's confusing. I'm almost positive a banana will knock Diddy out of his charge, so why wouldn't Snake's n-air do the same?
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I l ol'd.
Poltergust
Smash Master
@Flayl: I don't have four hands so that I can freely control two characters.
I am going to a Smashfest later today, though. Maybe I can find out there.
I am going to a Smashfest later today, though. Maybe I can find out there.
Marth isn't actually too bad for Ganon. He's definitely tough, but pinning him up there with MK as one of Ganon's worst MUs is... questionable, to say the least. I've never actually played a Marth in tournament or MM, so I can't say much about the MU when either of us are playing seriously, but from friendlies, I know Marth is far, far from an impossible MU. Ganon can be just as patient as Marth. Neither has a need to approach the other.
That was directed at Etecoon, by the way.
You really don't need four hands to do this. Hold B for Diddy/controller stick for Waio with your pinky. Or just use frame advance like a pro.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Except hacking my almost-dysfunctional Wii will cause it to brick. No thanks. 
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
Hmm. That's odd. Only the first hit of Snake's N-air will not hit Diddy out of his upB. And sometimes it will.
I don't think you give marth's edge guarding and traps enough credit but w/e, I'm not as interested in which does better as I am in the fact that both of them beat ganon very solidly.
that...is olimar. and M2K took advantage of someone trying to air dodge to ground and then using bad DI right next to the blast zone, don't see anything special here.
almo told me you destroyed him lol. I wouldn't call it impossible, but I do think its pretty bad. I suppose you're right, I should use marth against you next time. I just kind of assume it's going to benefit the better character more because that's how it was with MK and snake, ganon hits like a bus full of fat people, taking him lightly = much better chance of losing
Pretty sure your shield will break if you just sit in it.
Clai
Smash Lord
And with that I agree with you completely, I was just pointing out that there are subtleties that make the matchup different for each character. Doesn't really matter when they both have their way with Ganon, though.
I was trying to point out Shuttle Loop's disgusting base knockback. I don't care how bad your DI is, no move that comes out in a reasonable amount of frames should be sending anyone to the blast zone at that low of a percentage.
Albert.
Smash Master
This x341324, Every time I've lost again Ganon it's because I didn't keep it simple enough. In this match especially: smart play = very basic play.
Marth Fair > Ganon
(no offense intended to ganon players)
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Actually, it's mix-up potential, marth spacing fairs, nairs, and dtilts against Ganon's shield leaves Ganondorf to either perfectly predict what marth's doing or he gets hit or gets shielded.
If Ganondorf waits too long to try he gets shield-poked (he can retreat, but it just resets the position and he loses some ground and going above marth isn't fun).
I have a complete summery of the MU in a Ganondorf boards match-up thread from a while back, it's bad.
If Ganondorf waits too long to try he gets shield-poked (he can retreat, but it just resets the position and he loses some ground and going above marth isn't fun).
I have a complete summery of the MU in a Ganondorf boards match-up thread from a while back, it's bad.
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