Official BBR Tier List v5

[Vinnie]

also, I thought gaw beat ddd?

Me and Coney think it's even.

i'm curious as to why kirby beats g&w so handily.

He doesn't. G&w beats Kirby.

 

[phi1ny3]

i thought both links were supposed to do well vs GaW. but since gaw is +3 with everyone in the same section as link, maybe thats what doing well looks like. lol

and vinnie, I feel as if sonic COULD have the advantage in that matchup. but I havent explored that matchup to the same levels of depth as I have with some others.

also, I thought gaw beat ddd?

DDD locks down a lot of G&W's approach options from what I hear.

It's pretty even iirc.

Edit: ninja'd by Vinnie

 

[Spelt]

He doesn't. G&w beats Kirby.

oooh, okay. i read it wrong, lol.

 

[Clai]

95-5?

Come on, Ganon isn't that bad.

LOL ask the Ganon boards. Realistically its like 80-20

Ganon is that bad. These numbers are actually too generous for Ganon, I'd give it 0-100 in favor of Sheik.

Here's why:
Sheik stays in neutral as much as possible, charges needles when she has the space, waits for Ganon to have the appearance to do anything, and put up shield. If Ganon uses any attack that isn't Flame Choke, Sheik pretty much has free range to set up enough damage to Ftilt him into high enough %'s that she can just throw Ganon off the stage and gimp him effortlessly.

Rinse and repeat for three stocks. Seriously, Ganon can't afford to be hit at all in this matchup, and with the start-up time of Sheik's moves compared to the lag of Ganon's moves, Ganon doesn't have a prayer.

Also, use chain for maximum gay factor.

 

[-Mars-]

As of Now Clai I can't chain camp Ganon for more than like 200% or so before I make a mistake......i'm working on it though xD.

 

[Coney]

ddd/g&w is even. it used to be thought of as bad a fairly long time ago. both sides have to play really, really careful though.

it's just not a matchup that happens much at all, hahah

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sheik MU's imo

MK 35-65
Snake 45-55
Diddy Kong 45-55
Marth- 40-60
Falco- 45-55
Wario 45-55
Ice Climbers 30-70
Pikachu 40-60
DDD 45-55
Lucario 35-65
G&W 50-50
ZSS 50-50
Olimar 40-60
ROB 40-60
Kirby 40-60
Pit 50-50
Yoshi 50-50
Sonic 50-50
Ike 50-50
Wolf 65-35
Fox 75-25
DK 45-55
Toon Link 50-50
Link 65-35
Luigi 40-60
Mario 60-40
Peach 40-60
Ness 55-45
Lucas 60-40
Yoshi 50-50
Ganon 95-5
Bowser 60-40
Captain Falcon 65-35
Zelda 60-40
Pokemon Trainer 55-45
Jigglypuff 40-60
Samus 60-40

Lucario isn't that bad for Sheik.

And yeah she ***** Link.

If you think flamewaveK is the lucario boards then okay. I'm not even giving an opinion on anything ATM lol.

and yeah, you went there and didn't even enter singles and took 2nd to last in doubles. only finishing better than a team of casuals... good ****.

ad hominem won't help you lol

Hey, I help out too. :<

Also both of you should take a chill pill.

~

Vinnie is very helpful, still a ty for the advice in the chat.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Lucas v Sheik is a horrible MU for Lucas. much worse than 6-4

then again I'm just bad at SDI'ing GR Dacus.

 

[Orion*]

Planking is allowed so long as you do go to time. That's the thing.

???

and bair really isnt that easy to sweet spot unless you alreadpeoply have them in a super awful position (that really should be able to avoid, just take the uair damage and live with it lol)

if theyre grounded its definitely not hitting

edit:

It really is possible I'm wrong but I have yet to see or play a pit player that makes me feel like I shouldn't be wrecking them.

lololololol sigging this.

i agree with you on that one pretty funny xD

Sheik has a below-average moveset...?

I always thought her problem was that she didn't have anything blatantly overpowered and game-changing, but that she's always been an excellent character otherwise.

this

is her jab even that good, doesnt seem that way

really..?

Lots of optimism.

people that play bad characters like to either
A. play them up
B. play them down

in the end they are still bad

I'm going to laugh pretty hard if Yoshi's ratios are anywhere near what Zz'gashi posted.

polt was trying =.= loooool

 

[ChocoNaner]

ddd/g&w is even. it used to be thought of as bad a fairly long time ago. both sides have to play really, really careful though.

it's just not a matchup that happens much at all, hahah

Sorry coney but no it's not. It's at least 6-4, at worst like 7-3/65-35 (but that'd only be on FD or on Picto when there are no drawings), and at best some ratio in G&W's favor (on Brins, RC, or Norfair if it's legal). G&W can't land anywhere close to Diddy or he's screwed. Tbh G&W can kinda **** Diddy if he can keep him in the air but that's it. :I

And @ PF, you can't be horrible at anything with Loocas, yur bess Loocas main after all.

ichu:

 

[Shaya]

he said dedede, not diddy.

 

[Death Arcana]

Toon Link's MU's
IMO

MK 30-70
Snake 40-60
Diddy Kong 45-55
Marth- 40-60
Falco- 35-65
Wario 45-55
Ice Climbers 55-45
Pikachu 50-50
DDD 45-55
Lucario 40-60
G&W 50-50
ZSS 45-55
Olimar 35-65
ROB 60-40
Kirby 55-45
Pit 50-50
Yoshi 80-20
Sonic 55-45
Ike 60-40
Wolf 50-50
Fox 50-50
Donkey Kong 50-50
Sheik 50-50
Link 60-40
Luigi 60-40
Mario 60-40
Peach 50-50
Ness 55-45
Lucas 55-45
Ganon 65-35
Bowser 60-40
Captain Falcon 60-40
Zelda 55-45
Ivysaur 65-35
Squirtle 45-55
Charizard 50-50
Jigglypuff 60-40
Samus 60-40

take what you will
toon link is no where near high tier IMO

 

[Shaya]

also no offence, but not much point posting 'your opinion' on a character's match ups <,<

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, if it helps I think Yika's opinions and corrections on Yoshi's match-ups look accurate to somebody who practices with one of the most recognized Yoshi players [on the Yoshi boards] and understands the character better than most players in general.

The only problem is that I agree with Yikarur, which is ewwww....

 

[Browny]

also no offence, but not much point posting 'your opinion' on a character's match ups <,<

For the post count +1 imo.

 

[Lenus Altair]

???

and bair really isnt that easy to sweet spot unless you alreadpeoply have them in a super awful position (that really should be able to avoid, just take the uair damage and live with it lol)

if theyre grounded its definitely not hitting

edit:

It really is possible I'm wrong but I have yet to see or play a pit player that makes me feel like I shouldn't be wrecking them.

Sorry Typo, You can plank so long as you dont got to time. And I still disagree about bair on Snake and DDD. Its much easier for Pit to land on them.

 

[Technodeath]

I'm sorry Lenus. But your sig invalidates everything you say on these forums.

 

[Purple]

also no offence, but not much point posting 'your opinion' on a character's match ups <,<

Especially with no reasoning behind them.

 

[Yikarur]

The only problem is that I agree with Yikarur, which is ewwww....

that happends quite often in the last time..
perhaps we're doing it wrong

 

[Juushichi]

What? I can't believe that TL vs DK is even. Also, you have Zelda as 55-35.

 

[Hylian]

ddd/g&w is even. it used to be thought of as bad a fairly long time ago. both sides have to play really, really careful though.

it's just not a matchup that happens much at all, hahah

I've been saying that match-up is even since 08 lol. No one ever believed me though :/.

Lucas v Sheik is a horrible MU for Lucas. much worse than 6-4

then again I'm just bad at SDI'ing GR Dacus.

You mean you are bad at DI'ing upsmash? You can't SDI a grab release.

 

[Steam]

Hey, I help out too. :<

That was referring to him saying that everyone on the luc boards thinking I'm full of ****.

@TL Mus- Lucario doesn't have a significant advantage on tink IMO. though I do think lucario has a slight advantage. TL is still pretty good inside against lucario. all lucario really has going for him other than the obvious is TL not killing, which... is rather huge...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You mean you are bad at DI'ing upsmash?

Yes; you aren't sent as far when you're hit both times. I imagine you know that, but, I figured I'd clarify.

 

[Meru.]

also no offence, but not much point posting 'your opinion' on a character's match ups <,<

It's someone's opinion that the character's match-up is xx-yy. If someone says 'imo' he wants to imply that he solely speaks for himself, not for e.g. a whole board. There is much point in posting your opinion and stating it is 'imo'.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

also no offence, but not much point posting 'your opinion' on a character's match ups <,<

I guess it might matter more if he helped with the MU chart, I dunno if he has.

Like I said before, I'm fine with how I have been working with Lucario's Match-ups and helping getting it organized. So I'll finish it up and let it get released them

That was referring to him saying that everyone on the luc boards thinking I'm full of ****.

@TL Mus- Lucario doesn't have a significant advantage on tink IMO. though I do think lucario has a slight advantage. TL is still pretty good inside against lucario. all lucario really has going for him other than the obvious is TL not killing, which... is rather huge...

Ok, because honestly I see people on the boards who have far greater wth opinions on things across the boards. No one, outside of the one incident in the backroom, think your full of fit, that I can safely say.

 

[Z'zgashi]

no ds4, tink is terrible for yoshi, just watch our matches, if I can't get the approach and take a single boomerang to the face, I take 60 damage every time

 

[Jimmyfosho]

What? I can't believe that TL vs DK is even. Also, you have Zelda as 55-35.

it's so even that it is a counter.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I'm sorry Lenus. But your sig invalidates everything you say on these forums.

Sorry I don't conform to childish bigotry.

 

[AkiroWolf]

Well I like this list a lot better than the one for Melee, but then again I like Brawl a lot better than I like Melee in the first place but my thoughts.

I like Meta Knight being in first he is one of my most played characters in the game especially for his mixture of juggling techniques and ways of knocking the opponents far.

Diddy Kong I strongly disagree with being that high. I find him really short on reach and powerful attacks to knock people away with although he fairs well in crowds better than some.

Sonic I wish would have placed higher but in all truth there isn't really a reason for him too. As much as I like him as a character he is quite good for keeping the opponent off guard but beyond that he doesn't have much going for him with not that many knockbacks.

Kirby I wish could have placed higher but this is one of the reasons I prefer Brawn over Melee because Kirby got the upgrades he needed.

King Dedede and Zero Suit Samus are two characters that should not have been as high as they are. Dedede is terribly flabby in the middle of a match and sticks out a bit like Bowser getting hit by everyone. Only thing is that he can clear a bit better than Bowser can. His third jump however is really inaccurate and works against him. Zero Suit Samus I just find feeble in Brawls and doesn't have any real strong attacks to back her up.

Wolf I thought should have been a bit higher. I find his attacks a lot better to work with mostly because they are not as clumsy as Falco's or Fox's. The only thing that really works against him is that Fire Wolf. I find it terrible to aim with and barely use it.

Pokemon Trainer is a character I wish got a bigger placing mostly with Charizard but the whole switching in and out really knocks him off the bigger spots.



Anyway feel free to comment on things. I know that this is going to get at least some arguments.

 

[solecalibur]

 

[Juushichi]

Dammit Sole, you beat me to it.

 

[AkiroWolf]

Course I'm new here it says so on that thing <<<<<<<<<<< next to my name.

Thats what I think of the tier list and I stick what I just said.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Akiro: I suggest you look into videos of high level play, especially with diddy. Power isn't what diddy is all about, but he does have enough to do what he needs. Diddys advantage is the fact that he is so safe on everything he does and that he has setups for big damage and kills to make up for any short comings he has.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that you're not entitled to your opinion, but I suggest you watch and see some high level play so that you understand how the characters work.

 

[AkiroWolf]

@Akiro: I suggest you look into videos of high level play, especially with diddy. Power isn't what diddy is all about, but he does have enough to do what he needs. Diddys advantage is the fact that he is so safe on everything he does and that he has setups for big damage and kills to make up for any short comings he has.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that you're not entitled to your opinion, but I suggest you watch and see some high level play so that you understand how the characters work.

There isn't really any point to that, I don't ever really intend to play as Diddy Kong because I don't really like his moveset. I really only like playing as characters that I feel comfy playing as otherwise I really can't enjoy the game as much as anyone should. I like playing as characters that feel like their moves come naturally to you if you know what I mean.

Though in saying that, it is some good advice I will check it out on characters that are more interesting.

 

[John12346]

Akiro, I'll tell you about why everyone is where they are.

Diddy Kong's DownB bananas allow him to make high damage combos and guarantee combos into his kill moves. Not many characters can boast guaranteed smashes like Diddy. Although you're right that he is pretty weak, his combos more than make up for it, as the damage gets tacked on like nobody's business.

King Dedede has suprisingly high mobility and some great dodges, especially in his spotdodge. He's able to Down Throw opponents and get a free dash and regrab on all but ~8 characters in the game, formerly known as chaingrabbing. By finishing with a Forward Throw or Back Throw at the ledge, a full chaingrab can do up to ~40 damage. In addition to this, his Back Aerial has massive priority, range, speed, and power, which is great against opponents approaching in the air. He also has an Up Tilt that makes him temporarily invincible, kills at the same percent as Snake's Up Tilt, and comes out almost as quickly.

Zero Suit Samus has some kill moves in her Back Aerial and DownB. And she can guarantee they'll hit if she hits with a Down Smash paralyzer beforehand. She's definitely weak, but being able to rack up fast damage, combined with reliable setups to average kill moves definitely helps.

Wolf, unfortunately, is good on paper, with a quick Forward Smash, a fast kill move in Down Smash, a fast and ranged Back Aerial, coupled with a spammable Blaster and Reflector, but the main drawback is that a lot of the things he does are simply defeated by shielding. This, plus his cruddy recovery, drop him pretty low, although I can see why you'd think he should be higher.

 

[Vinnie]

When's the matchup chart supposed to come out?

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Vinnie: When it's finished ;3

 

[Juushichi]

Vinnie, who is that girl in your picture and what is up with her nose?

On topic, idk.

 

[Coney]

Diddy Kong I strongly disagree with being that high. I find him really short on reach and powerful attacks to knock people away with although he fairs well in crowds better than some.

tier lists are based off of the way that the competitive community plays--namely, 1v1 on stages with minimal distractions. diddy absolutely thrives in this environment. his ability to rack up incredible amounts of damage while staying absolutely covered is why he's so good, and when played correctly his difficulties in killing aren't even that bad. another thing you have to factor in is that he doesn't necessarily HAVE to kill anyone, as he forces approaches with early leads extremely well.

Sonic I wish would have placed higher but in all truth there isn't really a reason for him too. As much as I like him as a character he is quite good for keeping the opponent off guard but beyond that he doesn't have much going for him with not that many knockbacks.

you seem to put a lot of emphasis on power. that's fine and all, but consider other attributes of the characters.

King Dedede and Zero Suit Samus are two characters that should not have been as high as they are. Dedede is terribly flabby in the middle of a match and sticks out a bit like Bowser getting hit by everyone. Only thing is that he can clear a bit better than Bowser can. His third jump however is really inaccurate and works against him. Zero Suit Samus I just find feeble in Brawls and doesn't have any real strong attacks to back her up.

ddd certainly gets combo'd to high hell, but it doesn't matter when he lives forever. and while his third jump is both a blessing and a curse, i would never say it's "inaccurate." it has a lot of intricacies about it that people don't realize at first glance, but you can actually maneuver the thing a lot better than people think you can.

again, don't prioritize killing so much. zss DOES have killing moves though, so i don't know where you're coming from there.

in short, it seems like you're making opinions of a tier list ignorant of the knowledge that cultivated it. familiarize yourself with the game a bit more, particularly with high level play, and some/all of this stuff will make much more sense to you.

 

[Poltergust]

King Dedede has suprisingly high mobility

wut