Official BBR Tier List v5

[Espy Rose]

They are also his fastest, and deal plenty of damage.

 

[Spelt]

You must be confused because we're still talking about different things.

 

[Ripple]

there are 2 different conversations going on spelt. currently, no one is talking about your point

 

[Mr.-0]

Snake's aerial"S are good, but not his aerial game. Have you ever seen a Snake play with hsi aerials like a marth? His aerial speed, and just porr aerial combat ability make him have a bad aerial game, even though eh has some amazing aerial moves. Yes, his bair and urair are sexy, but they're more punishing moves, not the kind of moves like MK's dair or marth's fair. And I think Snak'es recovery sucks because his cypher sucks, even though is recovery is techinically awesome, it racks up damag on himself to prevent him from being gimped. I think, having to c4 yourself to be safe, thus damagin yourself, and the fact that cypher sucks, even though snake CAN recover from far away, I don't like his recovery. And his aerials, while you can punish wanna-be gimpers with them (sorta like Ally used to do) that's extremely difficult, and if you punish wrong, you'll be in a terrible position, possibly 1 or 2 more C4's needed. And with that, and Snake's ease to hit, even thought he can survive crazy long, the damage racks up, FAST.

 

[solecalibur]

I'll admit, the frame one counter is very fast.
But again, grenades ARE his best move.

You have to use it wisely though it isnt that good imo, and you should only see a snake walking unless he is running to grab the ledge if at that

 

[Nefarious B]

there are 2 different conversations going on spelt. currently, no one is talking about your point

Because his point is... pointless. Snake is fast where he needs it, which is what matters. His playstyle does not require him to chase after fast opponents because for the most part they will be coming to him.

It's like if you said Snake sucks because all of his moves have high knockback making it so he can't combo. It's ******** because Snake isn't a combo character, his playstyle revolves around knocking people away to give him time to setup traps and create nade webs.

The only good point I've heard people bring up against Snake is that he seems to get out camped by some characters, which was thought to not be the case for a long time, and that hurts his overall strategy badly. If you watch TKD vs Havok's Snake you can see this pretty clearly.

 

[deepseadiva]

Can we stop talking to Spelt.

 

[Mr.-0]

I mentioned that Snake gets outcamped in some matchups <3
Someone should go make a "The Snake Debate: How Good Is He?" thread. Seriously. Someone. Make it in the Snake bords. Please. I"m asking for it.

 

[Ripple]

snake is good. end of story

 

[Seagull Joe]

OK LARGE FLAMING QUOTES BOUT TO HAPPEN:
/caps

same people that say that snakes air game is bad are the same people that go halfway up screen to juggle him and get outprioritised and die at 80 to a fast fall up air or bair.

Yes. How bout a match everyone has scene before:
Dmbrandon vs Ally last kill

Your not sure why his tilts being fast stands out??? REALLY? Maybe cuz they do 21% and kill you at like 105???

Snake's tilts do a ****load. Some Snake's even stop their Ftilt after the first hit on a shield and do more. They load up a ****load of damage in total. Ftilt won't kill at 105, but Utilt sure will and Dtilt maybe even to a degree. Regardless, Snake's Ftilt does almost as much as Ganon's Dair, but it's actually super safe and easy to land/use most of the time.

Don't forget the broken range.

Never doubt the range of Snake's Utiltor Ftilt.

The fact that they come out on like frame 5 combined with their power, damage, and range means SNake isn't going to be using many slow moves whatsoever.

People need to stop equating running speed with being fast because Brawl matches are played at a slower pace anyways.

So what...Do people realize how slow certain top tiers are on the ground? Snake's Dacus and super combos more then make up for it. Not to mention, Snake's boost pivot and regular boost grab make his regularly huge grab length EVEN larger by a great margin.

Yeah because jab, ftilt, and grenades defines snake's metagame?
wait... nevermind.
You pointed out snake's best movement option is walking, which i also pointed out as slow.

Who cares? Walking is good, but he doesn't need it.

No, Snake's metagame is defined by literal nade mindgames, camping, Ftilt, Utilt, and hard reads. His aerial more then make up for a lot of factors as well. C4 combos quite well and is a hard trap, especially when Dsmash is also somewhere on the field. Snake's are masters of mindgames. I think Snake mindgames are the most potent because they lead to the most damage output and require less thought. Diddy mindgames do damage, but not nearly as much in just one hard read from Snake.

Snake's Dthrow is one of the best, if not the best position you can put an opponent in from a grab. His Dthrow is one of the scariest aspects to his play because he can just turn and Ftilt, read a roll, or etc...

snake MOVES slow.

snake ATTACKS incredibly fast

end of discussion

This basically.^

I still don't think Snake is second. Broken tilts and a DACUS+ grenades arn't enough to make up for his terrible recovery, terrible aerial game, the fact that he now gets OUTCAMPED in a couple other higher tier matchups, he's easilty hitttable, cgrabable, and has slow movement speed, plus characters like olimar, pikachu, peach, and MK can string him easily. And, contrary to what his boards say, I think he struggles greatly in alot of higher tier matchups. Grenade spamming/camping and just defenseively playing with tilts and waiting to punish with setups and tech chases, is a high-octane (yet still defensive) offense, and because he does so much damage with such a conservatvie defensive style, and can punish and doesn't get hurt by punishing as much, those are definitely great pros and why he is in high tier. But, you said that he can get punished and it dopesn't matter, right? What about when he's at the edge, and gets hit off? He's easily gimpable, has a terrible air game, and a bad recovery. so in some situations his getting punished is really bad. Alot of characters can also chain grab him and psuedo-combo him, because of his slow movement speed and large size, so if he gets cged/semi comboed off the edge, then he could get gimped or something. So even at lower percentages he still has to carre about getting punished, although, admittedly, not as much. But still, I just think ehs truggles to use his only pros to keep up with the oter high tiers, so I definitely think he should be dropped.

Do you ever gimp good Snakes? No, because they recover HIGH. They don't put themselves into awkward positions to make themselves gimpable. By this logic, Diddy is easily gimp'ble because even a Jiggly that just drops and nairs can gimp him out of Up b.

He doesn't struggle too greatly in higher tier matchups. He wins almost all of them or is even. Da ****?

PEACH STRING SNAKE EASILY? What...And Pikachu/Olimar? Sure, Pikachu can grab him till like 70, but I don't know how he strings Snake easily. Olimar strings in what way? Reading grabs? He does that verse every character.

Snake is still a king of camping.

Snake's recovery isn't terrible, it just puts him in a terrible position once its over.

True for the most part. Pivot nades in the air add ability to avoid getting put in terrible position or just landing with nades to make himself and the opponent get hurt or mixups.

I like that people say Snake's aerial game is terrible.
Because it's stupid good, and everybody is ********.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Eh. I personally think his cons outwiegh his pros to a (minimal) extent where he should be fifth. He's still good, and those wee valid, but I just think he struggles so much against other characters, and can't compete with them. But, then again, I am retarted, so...

No, his pros more outweigh his very few cons. You're insane.

Snake is also slow and a large target.
We weren't talking about results only weight and damage so they don't matter.

You are so outta the loop. No one is paying attention to what you say LOLOLOLOL.

Why yes, snake's aerials are slow (besides his b-air).
his actual good moves are quick though: Grenades, jab, tilts, and the DACUS are all quick and useful.

True.

Snake isn't slow by any stretch of the imagination. Snake walks a lot and remains stationary because he's so good from that position but he isn't "slow".

Yessssssss. His Dacus also goes across almost all of Fd. Who cares if he's slow? Does anyone know how easy it is to hit someone's shield with dash attack and then dacus out of it? 5/10 times the DA and Mortar will both hit. I hate this combo and it's so good lol.

yes because mobility is such an important aspect of a character based on stage control

It's a factor.

@ Jimmyfosho

No I'm not. ADHD has shown that Diddy is underrated and has a lot of potential, and he has destroyed M2K.

And I don't think MK is as broken as most people think he is.

And Nagahari from Japan has shown that Diddy has an inescapable single naner infinite on ZSS, but it probably works on the entire cast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU1TeT04b9A

M2k beat Adhd pretty badly at the Md/Va tourney I went to. He played 99 stock with Lie's Diddy the night before to be ready for Wyatt. He also has copied/talked to Anti about Diddy matchup shiz.

Most of the cast can infinite Diddy back. M2K beat ADHD pretty badly in their most recent encounter.

And no one ever does it LOL.

I think Snake is second, but third? I'm not sure, Falco or Diddy?

He might be 3rd. Diddy loses to Snake though matchup-wise, which is why I'm hesitant to put Diddy above Snake till the matchup gets more evenish.

You do realize that M2K isn't the only MK out there right? Anti beats ADHD every time they play each other. He also beats practically every Diddy he plays. Also M2K has beaten ADHD in their most recent set. Though I do agree with you saying that MK isn't as "broken" as people thought he was in the past but he with no doubt the best character in the game. That thing Nagahari did.. really situational and it really won't be happening on a smart MK or player anytime soon. Though it doesn't really matter as much almost the whole cast can do it on Diddy as well.

No, Mk is by every means "broken" based on the stage list and ruleset. Having both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise legal gives Mk a guaranteed win. If only Smashville, Battlfield, and Final Destination were legal then this "broken" aspect might change. Not to mention planking gives Mk guaranteed wins. Rules must be in place, but this isn't the proper place for Mk "broken" discussion so I'll leave it at that. I'm also not in favor of banning him.

I meant they haven't played as well in tournaments as Snake has , and while the metagame is based off of the way people play, there is still such a thing as the highest possible human play. When I refered to the current metagame, I meant playing as bets as humanly possible with the AT's known, with the current knowledge on MU's, and how those MU's are played. So, I'm going to keep on using that definition. And, a tier list is to be based off of the highest possible human level in the current metagame, not the highest known human level. While the latter, along with MU's and the discovery of AT's does create the current metagame, a tier list is to be decided from the highest possible human level of play, not the highest known. And, we should hypothesize when creating tier lists, because a tier list is not a bunch of frame data or a tounrament rankings list, it is exactly what I said it was before: A ranking of the characters in the game that predicts how well they will do in tournies, based on how good thise characters are in the current metagame, and being played at the top of humanly possible performance. Even if our opinion is subjective, that is why there is a BBR, to hypothesize as fairly as possible. If tier list were just tournament rankings, we'd only need Ankoko or whoever made/makes that in the BBR, so it wouldn't even be that. And, again, of course we don't know how much potential the characters have, because the tier list changes. If we knew, the metagame wouldn't change, the iter list wouldn't change, the MU's wouldn't change, etc. We hypothesize from the data given to us (moveset analysis, theorycraft, AT's, MU's) and tournament results, imo, are not or should not be a part of that data.

At this rate, however, it's turning into "Should a tier list have moveset analysis or tournaments results in it's data pool, and which one should weigh more?" debate, so after a few more posts I'm going to agree to disagree.

"Highest possible human level of play", you keep saying that, but is that even achievable? Do things other then humans have the capability to play brawl? Do you do anything but theorycraft?

On paper, Sheik is top tier, but she clearly isn't based on tournament rankings, matchups, and her flaws.

WOw this thread went to **** overnight. I blame Mr. O and the American Government.

Mr-0 is a moron. His posts make my brain cells die.

But, you see, in smash, theres players, and characters. Soo ur analogy sucks. And, yeah, I've made this thread terrible, so, I"m gonna drop this topic.

This thread hasn't become terrible, but too many theorycrafting makes me wonder people's intelligences.

theres no way that i could elaborate this without insulting fatal, and hes a cool person and a great player.

however two things

1) i dont Ever ride hype trains. infact im usually the person insulting them unless ive had a long standing belief of something (in which case im insulting you for being late)

2) the fact that i even stood a chance against fatal and have taken sets from him before in tournament considering my current level at the time shows that while fatal can beat people m2k can, he will lose to people that ally wouldnt.
im super inconsistent vs snake and at the time i housed ally and couldnt even beat his sandbagging aggro snake in multiple friendly sets... **** even his marth was wrecking me LOL

^ also if you want to use the argument about not using how people do vs you as an example, im really not going into detail because its

A) not worth it
B) insulting to fatal, and i like him

edit: i dont see how people think snake is better than diddy.... in any way. you have to be ******** LOL

Diddy is better, but I'm usually hesistant about thought whether matchups specifically to the person below or above someone on a tier list matter in relation to where they are.

I agree that Diddy is better than Snake. Hell, I'd even say Diddy can compete well with MK for 1st.

I WANT THAT NASTY THAT GUSHY STUFF!

Let's go back to a serious topic: Where should snake be on the next tier list? We haven't really finished this topic, in fact, we haven't really done anything.

3rd.

b tier.
along with falco and ice climbers.

Definitely No.

Snake will be 3rd because he still gets results and everyone has bias that he has to be a good character.

Yeah.

Of Course. Snake is so overrated.

Snake isn't overrated wvjrv9jrv9rj.

We all know that Diddy is better than Snake. Snake should move down to the 3rd spot below Diddy. Snake might be overrated, he might be destroyed in the air by anybody with a decent air game, but the fact is that he still works. Snake still does what he needs to do to win. People can say all they want about Snake deserving a huge drop, but what have the people below him besides Diddy done to warrant them being above him? Somebody needs to answer that question first and foremost.

What has Falco done recently that Snake has not? What has Wario done recently that Snake has not? What has Marth done recently that Snake has not? What have the Ice Climbers done? Snake might not be as dominant as he used to be, but he is still more dominant than those below him besides Diddy.

Wario, Falco, Marth, and Ics have done nothing that I know of. The only Marths that bring in results are Mr. R, Leon, and Mikehaze. Falco-Dehf, but who else? Wario? I don't know any good Wario's left. Hunger just came back and got 5th at some Wisconsin tourney if I recall correctly, but that's not even money placing in some areas. Do any Ice climbers other then Lain bring in results? Lain uses Mk a lot too, so I don't even know if you consider that a lot of Ic's results.

Diddy has plenty of results. So does Snake and especially Mk. Too bad Ankoku's thread is gone.

Heck even Kain brings in a lot of 1st places at tourneys with Wolf. Does Wolf deserve a huge rise? No, but maybe a slight one to be more consistent with his results/placings/matchups.

You guys are crazy. Snake is heavy enough and does so much damage that all the stuff on paper about abusing him doesn't really matter. You can't take into account reads when talking about match-ups. Snake does a ton of damage from a single read, and can afford to make far more mistakes than other characters because of his survivability. This alone makes him one of the best characters. No one is going to play perfect and abuse everyone perfectly, snakes margin of error is far greater than other characters. This means he is always going to place high, even at the top levels of play.

I wish I could plus rep your post Hylian.

What other character has a disjointed, 5 frame, 21% damaging tilt?

Sheik

Spoiler

but seriously no one lol.

Snake's aerials are amazing :/

They don't let him be an aerial based character and none of them are for approaching, but bair alone makes him pretty freaking terrifying.

Uair is even scarier then Bair I think because neck kick kills super ****ing early.

For the 12345367th time.
Damage and hitboxes are not what i'm talking about here.

No one cares. Your posts are largely being ignored and the discussion is going in other directions.

what about a 5 frame 100% kill move, and a frame one counter?

Yes.

I'll admit, the frame one counter is very fast.
But again, grenades ARE his best move.

And grenades are ****ing amazing. They're like explosive naners.

 

[Mr.-0]

HUGH *** POST. And matchups and character flaws are part fo paper reading, so if you consider everything 'cept for tournament rakings theroycraft, then yes, all I do is therorycraft. AS to your brain cell comment, If I keep on posting, then everyone will be mor stupid than me, and then I W"ILL BE THE BESTEST! XD

 

[Ripple]

Dear Mr. -0,

please do not turn into another A2ZOMG

thanks,
-the smashboards community

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Does the Shiek/Zelda do much?

 

[Mr.-0]

Who's a2ZOMG?

 

[Steam]

I lol'd when I pictured an exploding banana after reading seagull's post

 

[Mr.-0]

. If Snake's so good then, why is he not first? You guys are making him sound brokener than MK.

 

[Steam]

. If Snake's so good then, why is he not first? You guys are making him sound brokener than MK.

Because snake is better than 4th but worse than 1st. I don't know how that's so hard to understand

 

[Seagull Joe]

Mr.-0 please stop posting LMAO.

 

[Steam]

Mr.-0 please stop posting LMAO.

Summary of the last 10 pages

 

[Mr.-0]

I was just saying... I dont think Snake is better than MK, but u guys are hyping him up way too much... all I'm saying, I personally think Snake is 5th. I'm ********, but Saegul Man, admit it, it's funny how stupid I can be

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Is Mr.-0 still harping on about Snake's movement speed, but ignoring MK's terrible aerial speed?

 

[infiniteV115]

1: MK
2: Diddy
3: Snake

The lowest Snake will ever go in the next 2-3 years is 5th, if we see a huge boost in Marths and Falcos. Very unlikely though, and I doubt it will happen. Snake won't have any significant drop for a while, no matter how much I think he deserves it.

 

[Chuee]

1: MK
2: Diddy
3: Snake

The lowest Snake will ever go in the next 2-3 years is 5th, if we see a huge boost in Marths and Falcos. Very unlikely though, and I doubt it will happen. Snake won't have any significant drop for a while, no matter how much I think he deserves it.

You make it sound like Snake's worst MUs are marth and Falco

 

[_Kain_]

This thread kinda lost credibility when Mr. O made like 12389127 posts about Snake being 6th and not being convincing in any of them and Spelt arguing that Snake is slow

tl;dr Snake is still good at 2nd, possibly 3rd cause of Diddy. People in here are underrating him, i've seen people say he's bad cause he's easy to juggle when....not much of the cast can even capitalize on that much, and he still has ways of avoiding it. People saying his aerials are bad...lolwut? NO THERE NOT! And 4 ftilts and your basically already in killrange of his utilt....from just 4 moves! 4 reads...seriously people stop being dumb Snake is still amazingly good, the bad MU's he has aren't even that bad lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's not at all what I meant. I just meant that I can't see anyone else in the cast rising above Snake any time soon. Soon being in the next 3 years. And even if Falco and Marth are the only ones with a chance, it's an extremely small one.

I'm aware (and I'm sure you're aware) that being above somebody in the tier list =/= having an advantageous MU against them. One of Marth's worst MUs is DDD.

 

[Big Moose]

Snake is the second best and always will be end of discussion.

 

[Mr.-0]

Okay, fine. Side note, on Rocket Toilet, I got 100677 in length, and 6014 in height XD

http://www.kongregate.com/games/pitergames/rocket-toilet

Fine then, so, we have, with certainty, the top three like this:

MK
Snake
Diddy Kong

With a chance (maybe) for diddy and snake to be swithed, but let's ignore that for now, even though I think they should be swtiched.
Who's number fourth? I say Falco still.

 

[Orion*]

You make it sound like Snake's worst MUs are marth and Falco

no.... he didnt at all. please like read LOL

i legitimately skim every post because 99% of them are not worth reading and when even i easily can tell what he's implying then there's a problem with your comprehension

anyway

i dont think snakes that good. hes bottom of A or top of B imo

 

[Mr.-0]

Eh. I wanna skp the Snake debate, noone likes me posts about it (mostly cause they're reaterted, but they're still my retared opinion.
So, is Falco still fourth?

 

[-Mars-]

Snake is the second best and always will be end of discussion.

No. Also come to some Utah tournaments bro.

Eh. I wanna skp the Snake debate, noone likes me posts about it (mostly cause they're reaterted, but they're still my retared opinion.
So, is Falco still fourth?

Can somebody ban this guy from this thread please?

 

[Ripple]

no.... he didnt at all. please like read LOL

i legitimately skim every post because 99% of them are not worth reading and when even i easily can tell what he's implying then there's a problem with your comprehension

anyway

i dont think snakes that good. hes bottom of A or top of B imo

wut? snake being worse than ICs? LOL! that's just stupid.

 

[Espy Rose]

Snake being worse than Wario and Marth also sounds...well...odd.

 

[Mr.-0]

No. Also come to some Utah tournaments bro.



Can somebody ban this guy from this thread please?

What the hell did I say then do aggrivate you so much?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What the hell did I say then do aggrivate you so much?

You're worse than me at knowing when to quit for starts...

 

[NAKAT]

Damn *****s still arguing in this thread lol.

 

[Mr.-0]

You're worse than me at knowing when to quit for starts...

Dude, I laid off the Snake thing. Read the post, I can't think of anything I could have said there to pisss him off. Seriously, I just think that guys a total ******.

Why the **** does it edit cuss words?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, you're just jumping right off to another character after taking the Snake thing too long. You didn't even have a break between the two.

EDIT: also, probably this line

noone likes me posts about it (mostly cause they're reaterted, but they're still my retared opinion.

I have no clue what you're saying there. "reatered" isn't a word, and the whole thing is rather...not precise I guess?

 

[Mr.-0]

Nobody likes my posts about Snake's position on ther tier list (mostly because they're retarted, but they're still my honest, retarted opinion.)

There, happy :/ And what do you mean, break, this is a discussion, if they want a break, they can go downstairs, get apple juice, and play Halo or something.

 

[Steam]

you're still not spelling ******** correctly

 

[ShadowLink84]

Can we cease the bandwagoning? I think its been established Zero was wrong. Let's move on already and discuss something else, like Toon Link.