Official BBR Tier List v5

[Supermodel From Paris]

Then there's good news! Your intuition isn't what we base a tier list on.

 

[BSP]

"A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play." -MBR Tier List Thread

Does the BBR follow this too?

 

[infiniteV115]

I would definitely think and hope so. This definition shouldn't apply solely to melee, or even solely to Smash. It should apply to every competitive game that holds tournaments, has multiple characters and a tier list, and requires skill.

 

[Chuee]

*dead* @ Z's list.

 

[tarextherex]

Ness is pretty bad though, putting Yoshi above him is right. The Ness tourney result hype seems to be gone anyway, and he sucks mostly because of his awful ground game, recovery, and even though his aerial game is good it still gets predictable and easy to adapt too. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes back to low tier if one of the low tiers proves themselves in tourney(mostly applies to Lucas, maybe PT, and maybe even Bowser or Mario).

 

[Savon]

I lost hope in Ness when I could just jump into his recovery to gimp him. I still don't understand how Ness is better than Lucas. At first glance it seems like Lucas is superior to Ness in almost every way. Could somebody explain how Ness is better than Lucas exactly?

 

[Chuee]

Could somebody explain how Ness is better than Lucas exactly?

Still haven't figured it out myself.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Still haven't figured it out myself.

You're just asking me to bug you about Lucas being worse than Ness again, aren't you?

*insert my typical Ness's air game being better than Lucas's ground game and more important results argument here*

 

[Chuee]

You're just asking me to bug you about Lucas being worse than Ness again, aren't you?

*insert my typical Ness's air game being better than Lucas's ground game and more important results argument here*

Your typical argument doesn't cut it anymore ma boy.
Lucas took a game off M2K /argument

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A game =/= a win.

Wins > games within a set. Ness showed up at MLG. Lucas did not. /argument.

 

[Chuee]

Ness showed up at one MLG.
Oh noes.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas is legit.

I personally think he's much better than Ness.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ness showed up at one MLG.
Oh noes.

One is greater than zero.

 

[Meru.]

Lucas recently placed well in Europe too.. Dx.

However Ness da bess and Lucas' haircut is gay :o.

Ok, on a more serious note ehh... Ness can be an annoying little prick. His aerials are really fast with good rewards. His aerial mobility is strenghtened by his fast acceleration and good 2nd jump. His ground game is pretty average, his grab game however is reaaally scary. His kill power is great and he's not bad at racking up damage as well. BUT he has grab release problems, his recovery is pretty bleh, he has some problems dealing with pressure and his range isn't always that fantastic.

That's what I got from playing him, may contain mistakes.

Don't know anything about Lucas however :l

 

[Chuee]

One is greater than zero.

Lets not forget about how the best Lucas outplaced the best Ike and the best Ness at MLG DC (May have placed the same as San idk)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There is a difference between "outplaced" and "the same". Let's see that results page. Did he go solo Lucas?

And who is the best Lucas? I've heard a number of different names, so I don't think there is a set "Best Lucas" as far as I know. Unless that changed since the last Lucas discussion in here.

 

[Chuee]

There is a difference between "outplaced" and "the same". Let's see that results page. Did he go solo Lucas?

Pretty sure he did.

And who is the best Lucas? I've heard a number of different names, so I don't think there is a set "Best Lucas" as far as I know. Unless that changed since the last Lucas discussion in here.

Pink Fresh is the best Lucas.

 

[deepseadiva]

ITT: Opinion is fact.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*nods*

I've heard Pink Fresh, Ninjalink, FAE, and I think Phoenix Alpha all be considered for top Lucas at some point. Not 100% sure about the last one, but you can't really tell which one is the best because they all show up so rarely high up in the results.

And how high was Pink's results? Higher than Shaky's 15th or w/e it was at the other MLG tournament?

 

[Chuee]

I think he placed the same as San.

 

[Meru.]

You guys are sooo lazy

Stop thinking, see for yourself

...
33: san37111 (EC) - Ike
33: PinkFreshhh - ?
...
49: Shaky3

MLG DC results.

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres also that florida dude galeon. he shows up to a tourney once every like 3 months. ***** a bunch of peoples and than fades back into obscurity

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

theres also that florida dude galeon. he shows up to a tourney once every like 3 months. ***** a bunch of peoples and than fades back into obscurity

This describes Lucas in general.

There is a Ganon main in AN with better results than the best Lucas

 

[Mr.-0]

The MBR is so stupid. It's like they made that definition just to piss on me.

 

[Chuee]

There is a Ganon main in AN with better results than the best Lucas

Then lets see them

 

[Nitrix]

My opinion of the list. Tear it appart guys:

<-- GOD TIER
<-- TOP TIER
<-- HIGH TIER

<-- HIGH MID TIER
<-- MID TIER
<-- LOW MID TIER

<-- LOW TIER
<-- BOTTOM TIER
<-- SATAN TIER

- G&W is too high....He belongs between fox and DK imo

- Pit and Peach belong between DK and ROB or around there


People should play Pit more. If you barely play him, it is easy to write him off as a lackluster character with little beneath the surface. Contrary to popular belief he isn't a bad character at all; he just requires work.

 

[Laem]

- G&W is too high....He belongs between fox and DK imo

- Pit and Peach belong between DK and ROB or around there


People should play Pit more. If you barely play him, it is easy to write him off as a lackluster character with little beneath the surface. Contrary to popular belief he isn't a bad character at all; he just requires work.

**** you.

10

 

[ShadowLink84]

"A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play." -MBR Tier List Thread

Does the BBR follow this too?

Well, first off, that is a statement based on a "metagame" tierlist.
There are also tierlists based on MU's.

In regards to the SBR, ehhhh not sure. Myown preference is that of MU's.

 

[Nestec]

People should play Pit more. If you barely play him, it is easy to write him off as a lackluster character with little beneath the surface. Contrary to popular belief he isn't a bad character at all; he just requires work.

That is not "popular belief" at all. I've rarely heard anyone call Pit a "bad character". He's just the epitome of mediocrity. He belongs practically in the very middle of the tier list.

The Ness tourney result hype seems to be gone anyway

This is very true, honestly. Ness has done nothing noteworthy in quite a long time.

EDIT:

And also, people reeeeeally need to stop bringing up Ness vs Lucas until something dramatic happens with either of them.

Ness is better than Lucas.

Results-wise, they are about equal, with Lucas very slightly showing better results right now.

But as far as match-ups go, Ness wins. He honestly just has better tools than Lucas when it comes to dealing with top-level opponents. The ONLY advantage Lucas has on Ness is his more reliable recovery.

:green:

 

[Meru.]

Tier lists should not be based on hype @_@

 

[Chuee]

But as far as match-ups go, Ness wins. He honestly just has better tools than Lucas when it comes to dealing with top-level opponents. The ONLY advantage Lucas has on Ness is his more reliable recovery.

:green:

No.
You probably don't even know that Lucas breaks out from GRs farther than Ness.

 

[Deleted member]

What tools does Ness have that makes him better suited for top-level opponents compared to Lucas?

 

[tarextherex]

^Of course not, it's just that to me, hype seems like the only thing which made Ness move up.

EDIT: directed to Yaaay

And Nestec, sorry about bringing this back, it's just that I wanted to mention that Ness wasn't really that good, and Lucas might be one of the low tiers characters that could surpass Ness. About MUs though, aren't Lucas's better? I'm pretty sure that Lucas's mains even worked around some of their **** MUs, so I think Lucas's MUs are better now. His less linear game seems to be more adaptive to higher level play than Ness's.

 

[Ripple]

lucas has a MUCH better mix up/cross up game than ness does.

what can ness do? wall? does he have a great offense game? no. lucas has a great offense game but a lack luster defense.

in this type of game a defense with weak offense is a terrible thing to have. (I.E. Zelda, ganon, bowser)

 

[Chuee]

Ness actually does have really good aerial mix ups.
It's just that if you read them Ness gets hit.

 

[Nestec]

Tier lists should not be based on hype @_@

They really shouldn't, but that's the way it works.

When big names start to make certain characters look good, people begin to hypothesize and speculate on why the character gains success. This speculation and hypothesizing leads to the "understanding" of what makes said character good.

And all of that speculation and hypothesizing would not happen if it weren't for the hype that stimulated it.

You probably don't even know that Lucas breaks out from GRs farther than Ness.

Hardly relevant. Both get gayed anyway.

And I could be wrong, but I thought grabs get forced jump breaks anyway now, because of K Prime's shenanigans.

What tools does Ness have that makes him better suited for top-level opponents compared to Lucas?

A better keep-away game and more than one reliable kill move.

And Nestec, sorry about bringing this back, it's just that I wanted to mention that Ness wasn't really that good, and Lucas might be one of the low tiers characters that could surpass Ness. About MUs though, aren't Lucas's better? I'm pretty sure that Lucas's mains even worked around some of their **** MUs, so I think Lucas's MUs are better now. His less linear game seems to be more adaptive to higher level play than Ness's.

Lucas loses to MK, Snake, and Marth. And those are only his large disadvantages. His small disadvantages are even greater in quantity.

Ness loses to Marth, as his only meaningful large disadvantage. Like Lucas, he also has some other small disadvantages.

Less linear? In my opinion, Lucas is just as linear of a character as Ness is.

lucas has a MUCH better mix up/cross up game on the ground than ness does.

Correction in bold.

what can ness do? wall? does he have a great offense game? no. lucas has a great offense game but a lack luster defense.

Lucas does not have a "great" offense game. Explain to me why you think he does.

It's just that if you read them Ness gets hit.

...which is true in just about every case for every character.

:green:

 

[Ripple]

Ness actually does have really good aerial mix ups.
It's just that if you read them Ness gets hit.

retreating dair as opposed to retreating fair is hardly a mix up. it has the same purpose.

same with advancing fair and advancing nair. they serve the same purpose but people switch off because of stale moves. ness' mix ups are bad

Lucas does not have a "great" offense game. Explain to me why you think he does.

wow, seriously?

his nair destroys shields, easily, EASILY pokes or crosses up AND autocancels in a short hop. full hop dair as a punish? and guess what, if you miss a tech, you just lost a stock. lucas' up-air juggles and has great shield pressure (you're supposed to use it like wario's up- air on shield) fair auto cancels so you can't grab him right out of a short hop fair. d-smash eats dodges and ledge play. his up B does over 25% if you hit them with it back into itself, which, honestly, isn't that hard

PK fire is abusable along with neutral B in certain match ups.

lucas' offense is amazing

 

[Coney]

ness doesn't really do advancing nair

he does it oos or at the beginning of a second jump but fair is really the only advancer he has

i don't know who's better and i can't really see people feeling so strongly one way or another about it, they seem pretty equal

in the past people said ness was better simply because it was the "cool" thing to do, to be a contrarian, this is back when everyone thought lucas was the ****

now, i don't know

 

[NickRiddle]

Ness is better.
Only because his spacing tool is better.

 

[Ripple]

Ness is better.
Only because his spacing tool is better.

they aren't clones. just because ness has a better spacing tool does not mean he is the better character