Official BBR Tier List v5

[Nestec]

ness doesn't really do advancing nair

he does it oos or at the beginning of a second jump but fair is really the only advancer he has

Dair.

And Lucas has even less to approach with. Just Nair, I believe? And even that move is unreliable as an approach.

retreating dair as opposed to retreating fair is hardly a mix up. it has the same purpose.

they serve the same purpose but people switch off because of stale moves. ness' mix ups are bad

Of course they have the same purpose. They're retreat mix-ups. They're both for retreating.

And it doesn't matter WHY people switch off. The fact that he has the ability to switch off is what is important.

EDIT: Ahh, i didn't see your response to my question, Ripple. Hold on a moment...

wow, seriously?

his nair destroys shields, easily, EASILY pokes or crosses up AND autocancels in a short hop. full hop dair as a punish? and guess what, if you miss a tech, you just lost a stock. lucas' up-air juggles and has great shield pressure (you're supposed to use it like wario's up- air on shield) fair auto cancels so you can't grab him right out of a short hop fair. d-smash eats dodges and ledge play. his up B does over 25% if you hit them with it back into itself, which, honestly, isn't that hard

PK fire is abusable along with neutral B in certain match ups.

lucas' offense is amazing

Nair's range is far too low, you don't even have to shield to avoid it.

You're making assumptions by implying Lucas' opponent doesn't know how to tech. I can just as easily argue that Ness' PKT2 will take early stocks fast.

Ness' Uair works the exact same way, if not better.

Honestly, your last two sentences of the first paragraph almost perfectly describe Ness. And Lucas PKT2 is much too slow to connect.

Lucas PK Fire is not used for Offense. Much too easy to powershield.

:green:

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would say ness is better.

when you put all of their attributes together, they come out nearly even. The only reason I give ness the edge is because he has the best kill throw in the game.

 

[Ripple]

Dair.

And Lucas has even less to approach with. Just Nair, I believe? And even that move is unreliable as an approach.



Of course they have the same purpose. They're retreat mix-ups. They're both for retreating.

And it doesn't matter WHY people switch off. The fact that he has the ability to switch off is what is important.

EDIT: Ahh, i didn't see your response to my question, Ripple. Hold on a moment...

:green:

1st part. wrong, lucas can approach with more than just nair. you spouting that leads me to believe you have no idea how lucas works. fair is usable, up air is great, dair maybe but not often and bair only if they are kirby or jiggs.

second part. It DOES matter WHY people switch off. if it didn't, then ness should just use fair instead of nair everytime or vice versa. you need a move with a purpose for a cross up otherwise there is no point in using it and you'll get punished

 

[napZzz]

its too bad lucas's aproach game is balls, his range is pathetic. If he managed to get inside, his options are decent, but ness can apply pressure so much better...his shield pressure is amazing. Plus his grab doesn't suck, lucas just has jab/nair compared to ness

 

[Ripple]

its too bad lucas's aproach game is balls, his range is pathetic. If he managed to get inside, his options are decent, but ness can apply pressure so much better...his shield pressure is amazing. Plus his grab doesn't suck, lucas just has jab/nair compared to ness

you have no idea what you're talking about. ness having shield pressure?! are you high? that only thing ness has that pressures well is fair.

ness' options at getting in are balls too.

I never said ness' grab was bad. no one did. and lucas' grab isn't bad either

Nair's range is far too low, you don't even have to shield to avoid it.

same could be said for ness'.

You're making assumptions by implying Lucas' opponent doesn't know how to tech. I can just as easily argue that Ness' PKT2 will take early stocks fast.

I did not make an assumption. I mearly stated that IF the opponent misses a tech, they should lose a stock. if they do tech its still a great punish.

Ness' Uair works the exact same way, if not better.

debatable. I honestly never see nesses doing up airs though

Honestly, your last two sentences of the first paragraph almost perfectly describe Ness. And Lucas PKT2 is much too slow to connect.

which 2? the one with d-smash and up-b? or the up-b and and PK fine one? either way, ness' PK fire is not nearly as abusable as lucas'.

and lucas's up-b is not tooo slow to connect. you use it when they are on the ledge or in the air. ness' is usable in the same way but does not do nearly as much damage.

Lucas PK Fire is not used for Offense. Much too easy to powershield.

I separated that to note that it was more abusable than ness'. same with neutral-b. not to say that its a great offensive move

 

[NickRiddle]

Ness is still better. I know they're not clones, but that doesn't make Ness's spacing tool the reason that he's better than Lucas.

 

[Deleted member]

I have no issue approaching with Lucas. Hell, just walk and f-tilt.

 

[#HBC | J]

Wow people are actually having an educated debate on Lucas vs. Ness finally.

This is surely a change...

Lucas > Ness

He really is better but meh *shrug* They really are equal as Coney iirc said. Just an opinion that Lucas is better.

 

[_Kain_]

I have no issue approaching with Lucas. Hell, just walk and f-tilt.

The problem is that's not a good approach

 

[Deleted member]

The problem is that's not a good approach

It works. :3

 

[NickRiddle]

It works against people with no spacing moves.. :3

This is true.

 

[Ripple]

Ness is still better. I know they're not clones, but that doesn't make Ness's spacing tool the reason that he's better than Lucas.

then name some reasons.

legitimate reasons.

and please if you don't actually know how lucas works, don't talk about him

 

[Deleted member]

This is true.

::shrugs:: I like to pressure with it. Down smash is also a great punisher if they roll and sometimes if they spotdodge.

I think his down smash is just a good move in general. I bait people into it if I'm above them on a platform.

 

[Chuee]

Dair.

And Lucas has even less to approach with. Just Nair, I believe? And even that move is unreliable as an approach.



Of course they have the same purpose. They're retreat mix-ups. They're both for retreating.

And it doesn't matter WHY people switch off. The fact that he has the ability to switch off is what is important.

EDIT: Ahh, i didn't see your response to my question, Ripple. Hold on a moment...



Nair's range is far too low, you don't even have to shield to avoid it.

You're making assumptions by implying Lucas' opponent doesn't know how to tech. I can just as easily argue that Ness' PKT2 will take early stocks fast.

Ness' Uair works the exact same way, if not better.

Honestly, your last two sentences of the first paragraph almost perfectly describe Ness. And Lucas PKT2 is much too slow to connect.

Lucas PK Fire is not used for Offense. Much too easy to powershield.

:green:

Stop posting..............................please you're **** is so wrong it's not even funny............

its too bad lucas's aproach game is balls, his range is pathetic. If he managed to get inside, his options are decent, but ness can apply pressure so much better...his shield pressure is amazing. Plus his grab doesn't suck, lucas just has jab/nair compared to ness

Same reply as above.

Ness is still better. I know they're not clones, but that doesn't make Ness's spacing tool the reason that he's better than Lucas.

Oh and lets not forget how Lucas has a far better recovery, breaks out of release farther, has better tools to cover below him, can edgeguard better, and a better ground game.
But all that don't matter cuz Ness got fair.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lucas is better then Ness.

 

[Deleted member]

^Dat Pink Fresh experience.

 

[Chuee]

Lucas is better then Ness.

Wise words from a wise man.

 

[Nestec]

1st part. wrong, lucas can approach with more than just nair. you spouting that leads me to believe you have no idea how lucas works. fair is usable, up air is great, dair maybe but not often and bair only if they are kirby or jiggs.

Uair and Dair both have too poor of range to be used approaching.

Mentioning Bair was absolutely useless.

second part. It DOES matter WHY people switch off. if it didn't, then ness should just use fair instead of nair everytime or vice versa. you need a move with a purpose for a cross up otherwise there is no point in using it and you'll get punished

No one said anything about using Nair for retreating.

same could be said for ness'.

Haha, you're right, sir! Too bad no one ever said Nair was a useful approach option for Ness.

-_-

I did not make an assumption. I mearly stated that IF the opponent misses a tech, they should lose a stock. if they do tech its still a great punish.

Again, do you realize how bad the range is on this move?? Lucas' Dair is VERY situational when it comes to punishing.

debatable. I honestly never see nesses doing up airs though

You don't watch enough good Ness play.

which 2? the one with d-smash and up-b? or the up-b and and PK fine one? either way, ness' PK fire is not nearly as abusable as lucas'.

My bad, I meant the parts about Uair, Fair, and UpB. Yes, Ness PKF is not better than Lucas'.

and lucas's up-b is not tooo slow to connect. you use it when they are on the ledge or in the air. ness' is usable in the same way but does not do nearly as much damage.

When who is on the ledge or in the air? Don't use pronouns so loosely.

And dude.

Ness' PKT2 kills.

I separated that to note that it was more abusable than ness'. same with neutral-b. not to say that its a great offensive move

False, both are just as easy to powershield.

I agree about neutral B though.

Stop posting..............................please you're **** is so wrong it's not even funny............

Oh and lets not forget how Lucas has a far better recovery, breaks out of release farther, has better tools to cover below him, can edgeguard better, and a better ground game.
But all that don't matter cuz Ness got fair.

I hate repeating myself...The grab-release situation has been GREATLY reduced due to the newly-discovered grab-breaking, so please stop bringing it up.

I will concede that Lucas has a much better recovery and better ground game.

Better tools to cover below him?? You mean, Lucas Dair? With the almost perfectly-vertical range? Or Bair, with even worse range?

No. Ness' Dair alone is better than all of Lucas' options for defending from below.

Edgeguard better...with PKT? Again, Ness can do this better.

:green:

 

[#HBC | J]

*facepalm*

 

[Chuee]

Uair and Dair both have too poor of range to be used approaching.
which is why you use Fair.
Herp

Mentioning Bair was absolutely useless.



No one said anything about using Nair for retreating.



Haha, you're right, sir! Too bad no one ever said Nair was a useful approach option for Ness.

-_-



Again, do you realize how bad the range is on this move?? Lucas' Dair is VERY situational when it comes to punishing.
the range isn't that bad lol.



You don't watch enough good Ness play.
I watch plenty of Ness play, and Ness doesn't use Uair that often.



My bad, I meant the parts about Uair, Fair, and UpB. Yes, Ness PKF is not better than Lucas'.



When who is on the ledge or in the air? Don't use pronouns so loosely.

And dude.

Ness' PKT2 kills.
Ganon's warlock punch kills.


False, both are just as easy to powershield.
Except one is safe on block and the other isn't

I agree about neutral B though.

:green:

greeeeeeeeen
EDIT: hi J

 

[Mr.-0]

Ness is better, cause hes got the moves. He has Fair. There. That's why he's better. Get at me.

 

[Chuee]

Ness is better, cause hes got the moves. He has Fair. There. That's why he's better. Get at me.

When you said you knew nothing about non-top 10 characters you were right.

 

[#HBC | J]

^lol @ posts like these

anyways Hiiii Chuee :3

Edit: Ninja'd by Chuee grrr

 

[Steam]

LOL@people from MD/VA saying lucas is better

LOL@people from FL saying ness is better.

LOL@ Shaky and Pinkfresh

 

[Seagull Joe]

I have played Shaky at Mlg Dc and I have played Pink Fresh at a recent local.

I lost to Pink and beat Shaky.

I say Lucas is better based off of playing both of them. Ness's walling is easily beaten while Lucas's ground game and his aerials are just better...He can gimp some with his up b and his Usmash kills super early.

The Dair lock combo can even lead to an Usmash. Fsmash has transcendent priority. Lucas's Dthrow is ALSO a killing throw, but like 40-50% higher depending on character compared to Ness. His recovery is better and his grab release is farther, which makes him less susceptible to certain moves.

Example:
-Wolf can only Fsmash Lucas.
-Wolf can do anything to Ness.

So...I think Lucas>Ness.

 

[Nestec]

greeeeeeeeen
EDIT: hi J

Like I said, Fair is Lucas' only viable approach option, making it VERY predictable. Not to mention its garbage range, and how there are 101 ways to avoid it without having to shield.

Dair range is bad, bro. Practically ALL vertical. If the opponent is not directly under Lucas, the attack whiffs and little Luke is punished.

The Uair argument will go in circles, so just forget it.

You just compared PKT2 and Warlock Punch. Get out now.

By the by, I edited my earlier post with a response to you.

Ness is better, cause hes got the moves. He has Fair. There. That's why he's better. Get at me.

Sadly, this is rather true...

I have played Shaky at Mlg Dc and I have played Pink Fresh at a recent local.

I lost to Pink and beat Shaky.

I'm waiting for the part where you find five dollars.

I say Lucas is better based off of playing both of them. Ness's walling is easily beaten while Lucas's ground game and his aerials are just better...He can gimp some with his up b and his Usmash kills super early.

...oh my god....

his aerials are just better

The Dair lock combo can even lead to an Usmash.

LOL you forget to turn off Pitfalls?

Lucas's Dthrow is ALSO a killing throw, but like 40-50% higher depending on character compared to Ness.

Then don't bring it up.


:green:

 

[Ripple]

Like I said, Fair is Lucas' only viable approach option, making it VERY predictable. Not to mention its garbage range, and how there are 101 ways to avoid it without having to shield.

:

this is so wrong it isn't even funny

 

[Mr.-0]

Hey, Nestec, I speak the truth, and only the truth. Chuee, you're just passing kidney stones right now or something. Way too salty to admit I'm right.

 

[#HBC | J]

Fair being Lucas' only viable approach. Ha. Obviously you are mistaken with someone else. AND saying Fair has no range. Meta Knight's Fair says hello and gets outranged by Lucas' Fair iirc. Also if you are being smart with people, give us those 101 ways to avoid it. With only one character mind you. I'm curious.

Dair range is bad? xD

Uair is a good move.

You said Ness' PKT2 was a reliable kill move soooo

and also Sadly, that is rather false.

 

[Chuee]

Nestec you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Delta-cod]

Lucas is better than Ness. Lucas is just faster (movement), and it lets him put on a lot of pressure. When Lucas hits me, I'm 100x more afraid of being ***** than when Ness hits me. When Ness hits me, it's like "Oh, I'll get hit a little then knocked away." When Lucas hits me, it's like "Oh **** what if he dairs me and I don't tech or what if he fairs me or what if I shield but my shield's already weak from Nair and . . . "

Plus, it's not as easy to camp Lucas because he's faster, and he can sort of break walls with PKF. His movement speed gives him greater options overall, imo.

 

[#HBC | J]

Also you keep editing your posts after someone responds to them....how is someone supposed to respond if you keep changing what you say? =/

And yes Lucas' Dtilt lock can lead to a Usmash however I cannot remember for certain if it's guaranteed like the Fsmash

Hiii Delta =o

 

[Nestec]

this is so wrong it isn't even funny

yeah okay brah.

Hey, Nestec, I speak the truth, and only the truth. Chuee, you're just passing kidney stones right now or something. Way too salty to admit I'm right.

Lol.

I like you.

Fair being Lucas' only viable approach. Ha. Obviously you are mistaken with someone else. AND saying Fair has no range. Meta Knight's Fair says hello and gets outranged by Lucas' Fair iirc. Also if you are being smart with people, give us those 101 ways to avoid it. With only one character mind you. I'm curious.

Dair range is bad? xD

Uair is a good move.

You said Ness' PKT2 was a reliable kill move soooo

and also Sadly, that is rather false.

Lucas is running at me. He jumps. He will Fair. So I roll backwards/jump backwards/walk away. And I wasn't being smart, 101 was an exaggeration.

Yes, Dair range is bad.

Point to my post in this thread where I said Ness' PKT2 was a reliable kill move.

Nestec you don't know what you're talking about.

yeah okay brah

:green:

 

[Chuee]

Lucas is running at me. He jumps. He will Fair. So I roll backwards/jump backwards/walk away. And I wasn't being smart, 101 was an exaggeration.

Except he keeps running and punishes your roll with Dair and reads your forward tech roll and Fsmashes you.
GG

 

[Nestec]

Also you keep editing your posts after someone responds to them....how is someone supposed to respond if you keep changing what you say? =/

And yes Lucas' Dtilt lock can lead to a Usmash however I cannot remember for certain if it's guaranteed like the Fsmash

I'm sorry I take a while to respond. By the time I finish typing, seven other people have posted.

You have my HONEST word, I do not change what I say.

Hell no it's not guaranteed. How is it not possible for one to roll away before Lucas can release his Usmash?

And yes, Dtilt to Fsmash is a legit setup.

:green:

 

[Mr.-0]

I like you too nestec

Yo, everyone, If I had blue halo armor, talked really slowly, hatted kittens and babies, had a name that's a part of a train, who would I remind you of?

 

[Delta-cod]

Hiii Delta =o

*Sincerely hoping this isn't Pink and that I wasn't completely mindgamed by the name/avi combo*

Gentlemen, let's not get into super theory bros brawl here. You can't type out a fight on smashboards, lol.

 

[Nestec]

Except he keeps running and punishes your roll with Dair and reads your forward tech roll and Fsmashes you.
GG

Lucas is running at me. He jumps. He will Fair.

I had no clue Lucas could instantly return to a running animation immediately after jumping.

:green:

 

[#HBC | J]

haha its not Pink =p

Also what your doing is what Delta is saying. Super Theory Bros. doesnt work~

And do u have proof it's not garunteed i'm sure one of my Lucas threads has the answer. If not there are many other threads to check.

Please go research Lucas before speaking about him cuz what you are currently saying is not correct. ^^

 

[Delta-cod]

I had no clue Lucas could instantly return to a running animation immediately after jumping.

:green:

You're assuming that you'll react perfectly every time and that you'll always have room to roll back, and that the Lucas won't mix it up.

Stop theory crafting so hard.

Edit: J, do I know you then? ._.''