Official BBR Tier List v5

[Goldenadept]

Seriously, this Ness vs Lucas **** is getting old. Since everyone seems to hate Falco and marth, let's go to Olimar. So, what does everyone think about Olimar? I think he should rise.

dude, shut up.
calm down and read the discussion, this is a discussion thread, no one cares if you're bored, go pick your nose or something

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Niddo saying those is like me saying Lucas is better because his Dair does 20%.

I was correcting his comment about only Ness' Fair being mentioned.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lucas's zair recovery is also a very safe LONG option that Ness does not have.

 

[Mr.-0]

dude, shut up.
calm down and read the discussion, this is a discussion thread, no one cares if you're bored, go pick your nose or something

I"m allowed to do that?

Also, yeah, good point, fine... *sigh* imma go troll the melee boards or something.

 

[Spelt]

here's a hint on how to avoid getting dair locked: HOLD UP.

Seriously? You too?

It's amazing how many people still don't realize you can just tech the dair and be completely safe.
PLUS you'll be BELOW lucas ready to juggle him instead of the other way around.
Maaaaaagical.


Also Lucas' zair is not that safe. it's stupid easy to hit the snake before lucas pulls up to the ledge.

 

[Nestec]

dude, shut up.
calm down and read the discussion, this is a discussion thread, no one cares if you're bored, go pick your nose or something

Wow, nice bro, very classy...

:green:

 

[Goldenadept]

Wow, nice bro, very classy...

:green:

i aim to please

 

[Mr.-0]

He was being sarcastic.

 

[KillerJawz]

Golden was as well.... *sigh*

I read earlier in this thread that all of Lucas's aerials are safe on shield. Is that really correct?

 

[Mr.-0]

Of course not. And der, I"m not supid, pssh! I"m rather quite intelligeient, actually.

 

[NickRiddle]

Lucas's zair recovery is also a very safe LONG option that Ness does not have.

Except as soon as the snake grabs the ledge, you can hit it...
Or grab it.
Hitting it inclueds spiking it btw.

 

[Poltergust]

Of course not. And der, I"m not supid, pssh! I"m rather quite intelligeient, actually.

...You're trying too hard.

 

[Mr.-0]

...You're trying too hard.

I've been trying too hard since I was born , I'm rather, "socially inept" you could say? It's rather obvious, I've been told.

That, actually, was not me trying to be funny/get attention. I was serious.

 

[Chuee]

I read earlier in this thread that all of Lucas's aerials are safe on shield. Is that really correct?

Ill go look up his frame data.
All I know is Fair is -9
@NR: Yes, but not many characters can hit him from that position.

 

[KillerJawz]

Of course not. And der, I"m not supid, pssh! I"m rather quite intelligeient, actually.

......I have yet to see a single post from you that hasn't revolved around angering other users or just showing outright stupidity. Start posting something productive or don't post at all. Should you continue to post in an unproductive manner, I will start handing you infractions.

Ill go look up his frame data.
All I know is Fair is -9

Thank you.

 

[Poltergust]

I've been trying too hard since I was born , I'm rather, "socially inept" you could say? It's rather obvious, I've been told.

That, actually, was not me trying to be funny/get attention. I was serious.

So... those spelling/grammatical mistakes weren't intentional?

Oh dear.

EDIT: Actually, I feel that we're going to enter another grammatical debate if I leave this post as it is, so, please, no one respond to this post.

 

[Chuee]

Fair: -9
Bair: -22
Nair: 0
Dair: -9
Uair: -18

 

[Xebenkeck]

Look if you want one singlular reason why i believe ness is better, is because ness has a legitimate counterpick in Brinstar, that tips many match-ups in his favour. And if that is banned, he can take you to other stages that can be just as good in Delfino or Japes. Lucas doesn't have stages that affect him as much as the ones ness uses.

Ripple you lost all credibility to me when you said you never see Ness' never use Uairs. Uair is one of ness' best killers, killing most characters around 120%. Also when you said ness has no mix-ups, he can do more than short-hop Fair. He can do any combination of sour bairs, fairs, nairs, or a dair, in conjunction with three movment options in a short hop, a full hop, or a DJ rising aerial. Or if you think you'll be smart and shield, he can use the BEST dash grab in the game, to either throw you offstage with fthrow, in the air to attempt to juggle you with uthrow, or outright kill you with bthrow.

Chuee, you are so ridiculous you know, any response you have made is, "lol that is so wrong your stupid" you never actually disprove anything, you just shrug people off as saying they dont know what they are talking about, and that your knowledge is superior to everyone elses. And any time you actually tried a rebutle, it was nothing but theorycraft.

Lucas isn't bad IMO, the only reason this is so overblown is because Ness is in mid tier, and lucas is in low tier. IMO either both have to be low tier, or both have to mid tier, as they are not that different to the point that a tier seperates them.

 

[Ripple]

Ripple you lost all credibility to me when you said you never see Ness' never use Uairs. Uair is one of ness' best killers, killing most characters around 120%. Also when you said ness has no mix-ups, he can do more than short-hop Fair. He can do any combination of sour bairs, fairs, nairs, or a dair, in conjunction with three movment options in a short hop, a full hop, or a DJ rising aerial. Or if you think you'll be smart and shield, he can use the BEST dash grab in the game, to either throw you offstage with fthrow, in the air to attempt to juggle you with uthrow, or outright kill you with bthrow.

just because you tell me how good a move is doesn't mean that people actually use it.

how often is an opponent above ness? not counting after after a up-throw the answer is never. why? ness has good verticle spacing. he is always jumping his fair covers a good deal ahead of him and a little bit over him. then when he lands he bairs or dairs. the opponent is always on the sides of ness. never above.

and even IF ness uses an up-throw I ALWAYS see people opt for a PKT since it eats air dodges and is a guaranteed hit. and can lead into another PKT

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Ness is better but not by much, 2-3 spots at most.

I could careless about results, his tools help him gain better match-ups pretty clearly.

On the other hand I think Lucas is better in doubles.

 

[Spelt]

And any time you actually tried a rebutle, it was nothing but theorycraft.

...You do realize your post is 100% theorycraft, right?

 

[Xebenkeck]

just because you tell me how good a move is doesn't mean that people actually use it.

how often is an opponent above ness? not counting after after a up-throw the answer is never. why? ness has good verticle spacing. he is always jumping his fair covers a good deal ahead of him and a little bit over him. then when he lands he bairs or dairs. the opponent is always on the sides of ness or below him. never above.

and even IF ness uses an up-throw I ALWAYS see people opt for a PKT since it eats air dodges and is a guaranteed hit. and can lead into another PKT

I use uair all the time, i get most of my kills with it, what ness' do you play that NEVER use uair? Me stating how good it is only was implying why I use it and others do to.

Umm, suggesting that the opponent is never above ness is theroycraft, unless playing on FD. platforms always play a factor in any match. Watch any brawl video and i guarentee you that no one is always below or beside an opponent. All it takes to disrupt that is to get hit once by anything, and knockback will put you above ness in most cases. This is of course is assuming you don't get uthrown anyways.

Yes most people do go for PKT, i don't see what you were trying to point out. I said use uthrow to try and juggle, and PKT is Ness best juggling option. If it is at higher percents, I personally try and hit an uair, but thats just me.

 

[Chuee]

Look if you want one singlular reason why i believe ness is better, is because ness has a legitimate counterpick in Brinstar, that tips many match-ups in his favour. And if that is banned, he can take you to other stages that can be just as good in Delfino or Japes. Lucas doesn't have stages that affect him as much as the ones ness uses.

Lucas is as good as or better than Ness on Brinstar.
but Ness should CP Delfino more than Brinstar anyways.

Chuee, you are so ridiculous you know, any response you have made is, "lol that is so wrong your stupid" you never actually disprove anything, you just shrug people off as saying they dont know what they are talking about, and that your knowledge is superior to everyone elses. And any time you actually tried a rebutle, it was nothing but theorycraft.

No, I did that a few times with posts that clearly showed me the poster had no knowledge of either character. And, discussion is pure theorycraft besides results lol. [/QUOTE]

 

[MechaWave]

lol Extreme late post~

Peach should have moved up, and I'm not saying that just because I main her. Zelda and Jigglypuff should move up a tier.

Come on people, develop better metagames! D=

 

[Xebenkeck]

...You do realize your post is 100% theorycraft, right?

Umm again how. Saying that Ness has good counter-pick stages is a fact. You can't say that Ness doesn't do better on those three stages than he does on the starters.

Saying ness can SH, FH or DJ any aerial he chooses isn't theory either, that is a fact. I press x -ness jumps, i press >A, ness does an aerial. Doing any possible combination that is effective(and by effective i mean SH'ing Snakes Fair is not a good mix-up) means you have mix-ups.

and the rest was me telling chuee, hes "cool"

 

[Tesh]

Its a man's metagame. Peach, Zelda and Puff just can't compete. ZSS has the boobs so we let her hang out in high tier.

 

[MechaWave]

Its a man's metagame. Peach, Zelda and Puff just can't compete. ZSS has the boobs so we let her hang out in high tier.

So you're saying ZSS is a man with nice bOObs? Because apparently her boobs are incredibly tiny in that Power Suit resulting in a very low placement. :3

 

[Spelt]

Umm again how. Saying that Ness has good counter-pick stages is a fact. You can't say that Ness doesn't do better on those three stages than he does on the starters.

No it isn't.
Linking videos and posting results where ness did good on a counterpick is fact.

just saying any stage is good for him is opinion, even if the majority of ness mains also think it. it just makes it a common opinion.

I can say Hanenbow is a good ness stage, does it make it fact?
No.
Ness mains doing good on Hanenbow does.

Saying ness can SH, FH or DJ any aerial he chooses isn't theory either, that is a fact. I press x -ness jumps, i press >A, ness does an aerial. Doing any possible combination that is effective means you have mix-ups.

Yes, Ness has aerials. This is fact.

However, saying how and why using them is good for him and explaining how it puts him in an advantageous situation is theorycraft.

This is all common sense.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

...You do realize your post is 100% theorycraft, right?

Yeah, cause going off pure tournament results is totally legit and isn't going to cause issues with player skill, regions, available mains of characters, etc.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Huh, so MK dominating on RC is theorycraft now? So common knowledge of the game is theorycraft now, thats news to me.

Did I say it puts Ness in an advantageous situation, no i merely stated Ness is capable of mixing up his aerials by either SH, FH or DJ one. AS IS ANY CHARACTER. Some characters have better mix-ups because they have a better set of usable aerials.(this only applies to aerial mix-ups obviously)

 

[Spelt]

Yeah, cause going off pure tournament results is totally legit and isn't going to cause issues with player skill, regions, available mains of characters, etc.

That wasn't my point. At all.
I was pointing out how hypocritical he was for insulting someone for theorycraft after doing it himself.

I was not assessing the validity of theorycraft in any way.

Huh, so MK dominating on RC is theorycraft now?

Yes, it essentially is. However it's so easy to prove by linking one of the many videos where a characters gets ***** vs MK on RC nobody would dare argue against it.

The rest of your post is just ad hominem filled sillyness so I won't bother responding.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That wasn't my point. At all.
I was pointing out how hypocritical he was for insulting someone for theorycraft after doing it himself.

I was not assessing the validity of theorycraft in anyway.

Alright fine.

~

To another point not directed at anyone.

People seem to thing results should matter more than tools & match-ups.

Like if people want to do it weighted ok results can have some impact, but saying they are almost exclusively as important.

My question, why?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Yes, it essentially is. However it's so easy to prove by linking one of the many videos where a characters gets ***** vs MK on RC nobody would dare argue against it.

The rest of your post is just ad hominem filled sillyness so I won't bother responding.

I could scour youtube, for all the matchs that ness has won on those stages, or you could trust people who have played Ness from the beginning of the games release to know which are his best stages, and are agreed to be his best stages through two years of playing. But apparently that would be opinions of completely uneducated people who don't know anything about their character right?

Ya sure just like chuee, when you dont have a responce, you blow the person off and call them stupid.

 

[Ripple]

Alright fine.

~

To another point not directed at anyone.

People seem to thing results should matter more than tools & match-ups.

Like if people want to do it weighted ok results can have some impact, but saying they are almost exclusively as important.

My question, why?

results show the what current metagame is composed of and what most players' focus is. I.E. mix up based characters, aerial characters, grounded characters, offensive characters, defensive characters.

you could have a great ground based character in a game but if its not the focus of the main metagame it seems foreign to people

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Air games seem to be superior to ground games unless the ground game offers a lot of stage control.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Alright fine.

~

To another point not directed at anyone.

People seem to thing results should matter more than tools & match-ups.

Like if people want to do it weighted ok results can have some impact, but saying they are almost exclusively as important.

My question, why?

Results prove the therorycraft of match-ups and discussions. If Ganon is suppose to have a 20-80 match-up with MK, but Ganon wins multiple tourneys, clearly something is wrong in the discussions. Likewise Pits rise last tier list was the theory that he was a good character, however the results he got showed that he wasn't that capable.

I do agree however results should not be everything, as with the thread i made in the other board, i beleive macth-ups are important too because its important in our meta-game to have a good match-up with MK, if you don't you are significantly hurt like Tlink.

 

[So Fatal]

theres no way that i could elaborate this without insulting fatal, and hes a cool person and a great player.

however two things

1) i dont Ever ride hype trains. infact im usually the person insulting them unless ive had a long standing belief of something (in which case im insulting you for being late)

2) the fact that i even stood a chance against fatal and have taken sets from him before in tournament considering my current level at the time shows that while fatal can beat people m2k can, he will lose to people that ally wouldnt.
im super inconsistent vs snake and at the time i housed ally and couldnt even beat his sandbagging aggro snake in multiple friendly sets... **** even his marth was wrecking me LOL

^ also if you want to use the argument about not using how people do vs you as an example, im really not going into detail because its

A) not worth it
B) insulting to fatal, and i like him

edit: i dont see how people think snake is better than diddy.... in any way. you have to be ******** LOL

Didn't you only beat me once at dna? which i then beat you in losers right?

Can't really remember and Ally is definitely better than me but im closing in.

 

[BSP]

Results prove the therorycraft of match-ups and discussions. If Ganon is suppose to have a 20-80 match-up with MK, but Ganon wins multiple tourneys, clearly something is wrong in the discussions. Likewise Pits rise last tier list was the theory that he was a good character, however the results he got showed that he wasn't that capable.

I do agree however results should not be everything, as with the thread i made in the other board, i beleive macth-ups are important too because its important in our meta-game to have a good match-up with MK, if you don't you are significantly hurt like Tlink.

If MUs have an influence, make sure the people who make the ratios know what the **** they're talking about.

And I agree with what you said. If you claim X character has better tools than Y character, but Y's performing better, maybe you need to change your opinion.

 

[Spelt]

I could scour youtube, for all the matchs that ness has won on those stages, or you could trust people who have played Ness from the beginning of the games release to know which are his best stages, and are agreed to be his best stages through two years of playing. But apparently that would be opinions

Or you could take like 30 seconds to easily link to a video to prove your claims. Instead you complain about someone doing the same thing you are.

of completely uneducated people who don't know anything about their character right?

yes that is EXACTLY what i said.



Thanks for putting words in my mouth, and showing why responding to you is pointless.

I give you an intelligent response and you go "hurrdurr ur dum".

Ya sure just like chuee, when you dont have a responce, you blow the person off and call them stupid.

You're still evading my point completely. The hypocrisy continues.

By the way, I kinda did reply.

Yes, it essentially is. However it's so easy to prove by linking one of the many videos where a characters gets ***** vs MK on RC nobody would dare argue against it.

reposting so I can get a legitimate response ... maybe?

 

[Orion*]

Snake being worse than Wario and Marth also sounds...well...odd.

i feel like snake sucks at forcing me to make mistakes in comparison to the other characters when im playing well.

also snake has ZERO approach, and the better we get at brawl the more this will be abused

Toon Link would be top tier if MK wasn't in the game. As it stands I'm not really sure what to do with him. I think Toon Link and Peach are the two characters who stand to gain the most in an MK-banned meta.

no. marth would **** though LOL

OK. I will just outright say it!

I think Marth probably beats MK. Get at me!

no...

i LOSE to marth and even realize when im getting hit its because im just getting outplayed. marth at top level is a very even matchup but mk definitely wins, he just out boxes marth.

All characters deserve an equal chance at discussion, Mr. 0. Not talking about anyone below the top 10 just shows ignorance.

not really all of those characters are pretty worthless

Wise words from a wise man.

you lose credibility when you argued with larry about lucas vs falco LOL

You can beat ZSS by staying mid-range from her. She has nothing surprising she can do to you. If she tries to jump in, you shield.

real talk though that post was amazing

Except as soon as the snake grabs the ledge, you can hit it...
Or grab it.
Hitting it inclueds spiking it btw.

wait you can hit the snake or you can hit lucas? if so why dont mks just dtilt the snake. im so mad LOL

...You do realize your post is 100% theorycraft, right?

LOLOLOL spelt w/ that real talk

Huh, so MK dominating on RC is theorycraft now? So common knowledge of the game is theorycraft now, thats news to me.

*cant read*

Ya sure just like chuee, when you dont have a responce, you blow the person off and call them stupid.

i know its quite annoying ive considered blocking him

Air games seem to be superior to ground games unless the ground game offers a lot of stage control.

what does this even mean or imply...

Didn't you only beat me once at dna? which i then beat you in losers right?

Can't really remember and Ally is definitely better than me but im closing in.

i honestly dont remember, idc to much about that ****

but i do remember one day i beat you and then you beat me
and then we had SUPER close sets in WFs and GFs that where all like game 5 last hit
i cant remember if we played any other sets than that off the top of my head tbh, so youre probably right - my bad

but its not really the point, i obviously made my post try very hard to NOT insult you or your credibility because we all know youre a cool guy and you are an amazing player. I just think its dumb to say youre better than ally <3

its fair to say that you can beat top players and you can place and win top tournaments though