Official BBR Tier List v5

[Z'zgashi]

I believe him to be THE top of low tier. At least bottom of mid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Snake is still the second best character.

Once people get as good at abusing falco and diddys recovery as they are at abusing snakes, people will once again realise that snake is still better than both of them.

lol @ snake has no kill moves. thats like saying fox has no kill moves because you can shield and punish the up smash. except its worse because if you take away foxs up smash, he still has at least 5 moves he can kill you with. Where as if you take away snakes up tilt, he has about 15.

 

[Nefarious B]

I personally see Diddy having the worst matchups within the top 4 out of the top 4. The way I see it:

MK vs
Snake: slight advantage
Falco: slight advantage
Diddy: slight advantage

Snake vs
MK: slight disadvantage
Falco: even
Diddy: slight advantage

Falco vs
MK: slight disadvantage
Snake: even
Diddy: slight advantage

Diddy vs
MK: slight disadvantage
Snake: slight disadvantage
Falco: slight disadvantage


However, of the three character's matchups against MK, I think his slight disadvantage is arguably a little better. Falco and Snake each have a few characters outside the top 4 that give them trouble. The only character I'm sold on that has that on Diddy is Lucario and mayyybe Olimar. I think the Diddy Peach matchup is overstated and is probably even, and I think Luigi is just weird for Diddy but he should have the advantage.

Overall I think that even with the worst matchups within the top 4 out of the top 4, they're still good enough to make Diddy better than Snake or Falco because he doesn't have disadvantages comparable to Snake vs DDD or Falco vs Pika

 

[Teh Future]

if falco clearly beats 10 or so characters mk goes even with falco> mk

don give a **** about counters that are completely winnable and you hardly ever encounter

 

[Chuee]

Lucario?
Im pretty sure Diddy beats Lucario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario?
Im pretty sure Diddy beats Lucario.

He doesn't, it's even.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's hard to tell, honestly. I still think Falco is a -really- good character. I think Diddy and Falco have the potential for second. I used to think it was decisively Falco, but my opinion has shifted slowly over time. Now, I think that Diddy probably has the edge.

All the characters that can be argued for second just have a whole lot going for them, and fairly large holes in their game if you look in the right places.

 

[-LzR-]

Snake is still the second best character.

Once people get as good at abusing falco and diddys recovery as they are at abusing snakes, people will once again realise that snake is still better than both of them.

lol @ snake has no kill moves. thats like saying fox has no kill moves because you can shield and punish the up smash. except its worse because if you take away foxs up smash, he still has at least 5 moves he can kill you with. Where as if you take away snakes up tilt, he has about 15.

Why doesn't anyone get what I am trying to argue here?

Snake's uptilt is among the best killmoves in the game! Nothing else he has comes close to this.
Look at DK, he has the most killpower of the whole cast, but his fsmash isn't a killmove, his dsmash is.

You see, it's hard to avoid utilt for a long time. C4 can avoided on reaction. Snake's smashes are lol and the dthrow techchase is just another setup for his killmove.

Snake's uair is so predictable and has a narrow hitbox that it's not gonna kill reliably. Same for bair. Others can be DI'd out of.

And ftilt isn't used for killing as it's usually used for punishing to rack up damage.

Now tell me where I am wrong and what does Snake kill with other than his usmash?

I think MK's utilt is his strongest upwards killer when tipped, but it's still not a killmove as it's not reliable.

The keyword being RELIABLE.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Snake's Dash Attack is a KO move.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ganon's everything is a kill move.

 

[Nestec]

tell me where I am wrong and what does Snake kill with other than his usmash?

His uTilt.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Fair. Ask Big Lou about that one.

 

[-LzR-]

His uTilt.

Thanks for the correction.

At what % does his DA even kill? Because I don't recall ever dying from that move. If it was a killmove, I sure would have.

Keep in mind, by killmove, I don't mean a move that kills at higher percentages. I am meaning a move that the player is constantly trying to land in effort to finish the opponent.

Snake's don't DA for this reason.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I am meaning a move that the player is constantly trying to land in effort to finish the opponent.

Maybe that's why you think Snake can't kill reliably...

 

[Z'zgashi]

Snake doesn't really have problems killing on most characters.

 

[-LzR-]

AAAARGGHHH

What the **** is so wrong! I have said this a hundred times. Uptilt kills reliably and is the finishing move that almost always is the one to finish the opponent. I never said he can't kill duh!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Snake's aerials, Dash Attack (which KOs Squirtle at 140%, I believe), U-Smash, and grenades are all fairly reliable and are thus interchangeable.

It's just that U-Tilt is stupidly safe, reliable, and is his OoS move of choice.

 

[St4ticFir3]

Just because utilt is his bread and butter kill move doesn't mean he doesn't have other options.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^Stuff like that makes me question Falco being above a bit on my list, but again it's debatable for me.

Diddy has the results which is a nice plus for him.

 

[St4ticFir3]

You have little love for pit on there eh? We need more pit results in tourny : (

 

[YagamiLight]

The etymology in this thread hurts.

Reading this thread is probably making me lose brain cells. Z'zgashi not knowing second grade physics was the ultimate blow, though.

AAAARGGHHH

What the **** is so wrong! I have said this a hundred times. Uptilt kills reliably and is the finishing move that almost always is the one to finish the opponent. I never said he can't kill duh!

The _point_ is, many of Snake's kill moves are reliable. Utilt is just much _more_ reliable and as such that's the one you see killing people most of the time. It's not that it's the only thing he can kill with, if he wanted to he could kill with any of his aerials after a well timed read. This is just EASIER.

For a similar case, look at Olimar. What does he usually kill with? Usmash. Does that mean his Fsmash, Dsmash and throws are unreliable? Not at all. Usmash is just the one that kills fastest and is very fast.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You have little love for pit on there eh? We need more pit results in tourny : (

Sort of,

I think he is a fair character that while not amazing at anything, he also doesn't suck at anything.

The results do hurt a bit, but I'm fair in saying it's the character proving their worth via results and what traits they have. I don't think he is lacking in either too badly, but he's average which is mid tier by definition to me, not bad but not amazing, just good.

 

[Luigi player]

lol @ snake has no kill moves. thats like saying fox has no kill moves because you can shield and punish the up smash. except its worse because if you take away foxs up smash, he still has at least 5 moves he can kill you with. Where as if you take away snakes up tilt, he has about 15.

The difference between Fox's usmash and Snakes everything is that Fox can run FAST to his opponent to punish/surprise attack, while Snake moves really slowly if he wants to utilt/KO.

It's difficult to react to Fox's running usmash, he can also punish a landing easier, since he can follow his opponent more easily because of his speed, but for Snake if you're just out of his utilt range you should be pretty safe (exceptions are C4/nades/mine and dash attack).

 

[St4ticFir3]

Sort of,

I think he is a fair character that while not amazing at anything, he also doesn't suck at anything.

.

Well...He has a really good glide.

 

[Steam]

there's no way that diddy can't be second now that he has his easy infinite thing that he can set up easily.

 

[Ussi]

The difference between Fox's usmash and Snakes everything is that Fox can run FAST to his opponent to punish/surprise attack, while Snake moves really slowly if he wants to utilt/KO.

It's difficult to react to Fox's running usmash, he can also punish a landing easier, since he can follow his opponent more easily because of his speed, but for Snake if you're just out of his utilt range you should be pretty safe (exceptions are C4/nades/mine and dash attack).

I don't see how you can't see Fox's usmash coming when its one of the few things you can do out of dash...

however its still such a good punisher with that dash speed. And there is still OoS usmash too.

off topic - I want to see a Fox reverse Usmash for a kill just for epic lulz one day

 

[da K.I.D.]

lazer, snakes other moves dont have to be reliable by your definition because they all randomly kill.

with a character like sonic, you can feasibly say to yourself, "I can get hit by anything thats not his bair, f smash and down smash, and still be ok". you dont mind taking a grab, or a tilt, or a nair cause none of those things kill untill far too high of a %.

Its not the same with snake because as soon as you get to about 135%, getting touched by ANYTHING thats not the nades and f tilts that he used to get u to 135 to begin with is going to kill you.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Its not the same with snake because as soon as you get to about 135%, getting touched by ANYTHING thats not the nades and f tilts that he used to get u to 135 to begin with is going to kill you.

Snake is a character that should never work, and yet he does work. I don't get that...

 

[Chuee]

I don't see how you can't see Fox's usmash coming when its one of the few things you can do out of dash...

however its still such a good punisher with that dash speed. And there is still OoS usmash too.

off topic - I want to see a Fox reverse Usmash for a kill just for epic lulz one day

I've seen a japanese Fox mixup running Usmashes with running shieldgrabs.

 

[phi1ny3]

Snake is a character that should never work, and yet he does work. I don't get that...

It's 'cuz we are human

only Jason's a robot and even so he was not programmed on any algorithm under the statement:
if (char_select == Olimar || char_select == Diddy);

 

[adumbrodeus]

Snake is a character that should never work, and yet he does work. I don't get that...

The only reason he "shouldn't work" is cause people don't incorporate mix-up potential into their analysis. Snake pretty much always has winning options and those options do give him significant advantages. There's also the fact that his high weight requires his opponent to win the mix-up game a great deal more often and it also means that he wins on a trade.


That's why snake is good.

 

[Ripple]

there's no way that diddy can't be second now that he has his easy infinite thing that he can set up easily.

he can't infinite everyone. different characters have different trip lengths and lag after tripping.

DK almost has no lag after getting hit with a banana while someone like ROB or G&W has about 3x the amount.

 

[Steam]

he can't infinite everyone. different characters have different trip lengths and lag after tripping.

DK almost has no lag after getting hit with a banana while someone like ROB or G&W has about 3x the amount.

is there a list of characters this works on? :/

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

he can't infinite everyone. different characters have different trip lengths and lag after tripping.

DK almost has no lag after getting hit with a banana while someone like ROB or G&W has about 3x the amount.

And has no one done a compliation on this yet?

 

[da K.I.D.]

im more interested in a thread containing every characters trip data including frame vulnerable, rolls, get ups, if they are different than normal, and distances.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario can do it back to Diddy, lmao.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I think what we're all interested in is...current Toon Link placings.

 

[Steam]

I'm pretty sure most characters can do it back to diddy :0

@DTL- MJG at MLG, and Jash at whatever he went to

 

[-LzR-]

Whatever, let's throw in the last argument in this Snake thing.
Snake can kill with pretty much any move after 140%. I know it and it's a fact. But I don't see Snake's going for the kill with C4, ftilt, fsmash or mines.
They will almost always kill with utilt. If they fail to get it to hit, then they eventually finish their opponent with another move like a surprise C4.

I don't think my point was fully understood but whatever anyways it's pointless.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Alright. I understand what you're saying. And here's why I feel it's that way.

Not only are all of Snake's moves kill moves, but they're good, reliable kill moves. Then there's utilt. It's not that Snake couldn't go fishing for kills with a bunch of his other moves, but utilt is in a class of it's own in terms of KO moves. If any other character had Snake's back air, uair, dtilt, whatever, they would use them as a main means of KOing, but because of Snake's Utilt, he doesn't have to bother.

Although I still see ****loads of bair kills.