Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[Luxor]

Irony

Oh the irony in the post above me

It's not irony. It's just funny.

I hope this post was meant to be ironic.

Crow said it, so it must be true.

Yeah BPC, ADHD said he's playing LM with Pierce to show why it's banworthy, and he actually made a decent post detailing why.

1.Circle camping.
2. "Cave of Life" or destroy the house, which is counterproductive to fighting.
3. Tornado can be autocanceled, and even if teched Meta has enough time to follow-up.
4. Promotes heavy camping, while certain blindspots are covered by the ceiling which is a legitimate reason to circle camp instead of approaching.
5. Locks if a player misses a ceiling tech and DI is read.

None of those are banworthy in and of themselves, just strong CP elements. It's debatable whether the sum of several smaller elements is banworthy (see GG)

 

[Crow!]

Circle camping does render a stage bannable if it renders the camper untouchable. Those in favor of the inclusion of Luigi's Mansion generally cited either their own or their friends' tournament experience on the stage which suggested that systematically forcing a circle camper to engage you was a feasible task when they addressed that issue.

 

[Shaya]

ADHD, I'm mad happy about your recent posts.
Come back to the BBR sometime <3.

Over all I'm very iffy about LM, mainly due to the potential circle camp.
However, what the stage creates, is actually quite an amazing feature for a counter pick.
General strategy on the stage is to destroy the 3/4s of the house before really initiating combat (or at least the top half). This applies to just about everyone; and in general for those who feel they may be at a disadvantage due to being out-'projectiled'. This is relatively safe to do, and a lot of characters have moves they either don't frequently use because they aren't too great or have a move which decayed has stronger combo ability (Marth's dtilt). Marth's dtilt fully decayed combos into fsmash (if it tippers) at kill percents. Sheik can always get the perfect decay needed for her ftilt, etc.

Anyway the main facet of the stage that is interesting for a counter pick, is the power of tech chasing. The stage forces one massive and constant tech chasing protocol that just about every character can use. I've seen some amazing matches between the likes of diddy and olimar that were just insanely fun to watch. Yes they lived to 200% or so, but the damage they were outputting on each other was completely skill related.

So yes, my qualm with the stage, and why I had voted it banned was the arguably over the top run away ability. But the cave of life is not so bad, as it is "controllable" by a player, I feel the mechanics of the stage (the regeneration of the house once it's completely destroyed, the HUMONGOUS SIZE of the boundaries and the "stage" itself...) are what makes it awkward for competition.

I'm generally in favour of stages being viable counterpicks that through having strong implications of the platformer genre have reasonably different ways to FIGHT.


Either way, yeah I feel LM's circle camp may be centralising for some characters (even though from what OS has told me/matches I have seen, all the characters who do really well here are the ones not exactly capable of running the clock anyway [diddy, olimar, dk, snake, rob]).

My thoughts on "fighting the stage" are when changes disallow you to calculate properly your next course of action, which results in a situation you'd prefer not to be in.
Things like getting cg'd by dedede but then BAM a PTAD car comes by to end it...

I would say "walls" can be like fighting the stage; because they centralise zoning so fiercely for some characters that avoiding it due to lack of options is quite minimal.

 

[BSP]

My thoughts on "fighting the stage" are when changes disallow you to calculate properly your next course of action, which results in a situation you'd prefer not to be in.
Things like getting cg'd by dedede but then BAM a PTAD car comes by to end it...

PTAD's transformations don't disallow you to determine your next action. If you were caught in D3's CG, you couldn't control your next action anyway.

 

[ADHD]

I have recorded there videos where I timed/was timed out. Two in which I was metaknight running the clock vs DDD and falco, and one where I was kirby vs wario. We literally couldn't hit eachother to stop the circle camping. He can plank in between transitions if you destroy the house, and when the house reappears the circle camping continues.

 

[-Vocal-]

I have recorded there videos where I timed/was timed out. Two in which I was metaknight running the clock vs DDD and falco, and one where I was kirby vs wario. We literally couldn't hit eachother to stop the circle camping. He can plank in between transitions if you destroy the house, and when the house reappears the circle camping continues.

Please, please upload these videos - I'm not being sarcastic, I want to watch THE PURE GAYNESS OF IT!

Plus it'd also start putting a lot of people in doubt, which they should be if it's as bad as you say it is

 

[Shaya]

I promote learning the stage.

However a strong metagame isn't developed unless you fight those developing anti-strategies for those "horrible things".
This applies to characters / what not as well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

ADHD, I'm mad happy about your recent posts.
Come back to the BBR sometime <3.

Yeah. Massive props to ADHD for starting to justify his points intelligibly. Now he's like me, just less insane and with more rep.

Over all I'm very iffy about LM, mainly due to the potential circle camp.
However, what the stage creates, is actually quite an amazing feature for a counter pick.
General strategy on the stage is to destroy the 3/4s of the house before really initiating combat (or at least the top half). This applies to just about everyone; and in general for those who feel they may be at a disadvantage due to being out-'projectiled'. This is relatively safe to do, and a lot of characters have moves they either don't frequently use because they aren't too great or have a move which decayed has stronger combo ability (Marth's dtilt). Marth's dtilt fully decayed combos into fsmash (if it tippers) at kill percents. Sheik can always get the perfect decay needed for her ftilt, etc.

Anyway the main facet of the stage that is interesting for a counter pick, is the power of tech chasing. The stage forces one massive and constant tech chasing protocol that just about every character can use. I've seen some amazing matches between the likes of diddy and olimar that were just insanely fun to watch. Yes they lived to 200% or so, but the damage they were outputting on each other was completely skill related.

So yes, my qualm with the stage, and why I had voted it banned was the arguably over the top run away ability. But the cave of life is not so bad, as it is "controllable" by a player, I feel the mechanics of the stage (the regeneration of the house once it's completely destroyed, the HUMONGOUS SIZE of the boundaries and the "stage" itself...) are what makes it awkward for competition.

I'm generally in favour of stages being viable counterpicks that through having strong implications of the platformer genre have reasonably different ways to FIGHT.


Either way, yeah I feel LM's circle camp may be centralising for some characters (even though from what OS has told me/matches I have seen, all the characters who do really well here are the ones not exactly capable of running the clock anyway [diddy, olimar, dk, snake, rob]).

My thoughts on "fighting the stage" are when changes disallow you to calculate properly your next course of action, which results in a situation you'd prefer not to be in.
Things like getting cg'd by dedede but then BAM a PTAD car comes by to end it...

I would say "walls" can be like fighting the stage; because they centralise zoning so fiercely for some characters that avoiding it due to lack of options is quite minimal.

I like this post.

@Luxor: duly noted.

 

[sunshade]

I have recorded there videos where I timed/was timed out. Two in which I was metaknight running the clock vs DDD and falco, and one where I was kirby vs wario. We literally couldn't hit eachother to stop the circle camping. He can plank in between transitions if you destroy the house, and when the house reappears the circle camping continues.

If you show videos of this it will make me very happy. I dont enjoy luigi's mansion as a stage to be honest but I do not support the banning of anything until there is proof that it is justified.

 

[ADHD]

It's not fool-proof unbeatable, it's just very slightly beatable. But I suppose that's what circle camping is. If the Metaknight/wario/whoever makes a mistake when the house is destroyed then he'll be punished, but otherwise you shouldn't be able to hit him.

 

[-Vocal-]

It's not fool-proof unbeatable, it's just very slightly beatable. But I suppose that's what circle camping is. If the Metaknight/wario/whoever makes a mistake when the house is destroyed then he'll be punished, but otherwise you shouldn't be able to hit him.

Video please! And then we can all discuss whether or not there are legitimate problems with the gameplay

 

[ShadowLink84]

That and it's proved inconsistent results. I mean, I don't think anyone can disagree that Mew2king is better than random R.O.B., but he was still beaten by that random R.O.B. he three stocked the previous game on Luigi's Mansion.

M2K Sandbags, alot.
If anything he should have ***** ROB since its such a good stage for MK.
To the point I'd want to see it banned

You're not understanding that that issue is really very strong and passionate to some people. If we are going to have him remain legal, then at least we can try to not improve his already monstrous self.

No I do understand, but there is a difference between being stubborn and being in flat out denial.
If he is such a major issue, if he is CONSTANTLY the one dictating stage lists, if you have to make rules to make him weak so you can stand a chance, then something is wrong.

Its a case where people want to be right instead of seeing things as it is.
If this means MK is ban worthy, then thats fine.
If this means he isn't ban worthy, thats fine too, but the scrub mentality is annoying.

He's alright. There's nothing to lay down on the table that will solidify him being banned.

He is a breast with a nipple protector.
Ban under sexual content.

 

[Orion*]

Yeah. Massive props to ADHD for starting to justify his points intelligibly. Now he's like me, just less insane and with more rep.

but hes saying the exact same **** you ****ing moron. why do you even give a **** how long the post, or "well thought out" it was. it all holds the same amount of knowledge, and youre ******** if you actually start listening to him just because he added some fancy ****ing words to **** we already knew from his previous posts

 

[AvariceX]

Pokemon Stadium 2

A strong point for its legality lies in the fact that no characters seem to consider this stage a strong counterpick, and no characters seem to consider this one of their worst stages. This leads us to believe that this is a very fair stage overall. In fact, with no characters currently considering Pokemon Stadium 2 as a strong counterpick, there was a movement to allow Pokemon Stadium 2 to be considered as a Starter stage.

Sorry for not wanting to read through 25 pages to see if this has already been brought up, but the Ness boards have always considered PS2 one of Ness' best counterpicks (if not the best).

Otherwise I agree with the stage discussions though.

 

[T-block]

Thanks, Avarice. I had a feeling Ness would like it, and I know Lucas really likes it too. I'm thinking Yoshi would as well.

PS2 hasn't really been legal in enough places for things like this to show. Hopefully more regions will legalize it and we can start seeing how strong it really is for these characters.

 

[Shaya]

its an amazing sonic stage.
reasonable idea to strike it if you're a midweight against dedede though.
Even though the ice is only a 30 second transformation... and it isn't a guaranteed death, obviously.

Marth at least, on the ice, gets a guaranteed dthrow to dsmash from dedede ;\

 

[Espy Rose]

No Shaya.
PS2 is NOT an "amazing" Sonic stage.

Transformations disrupt his stage control, and KOing anyone heavier than he is is an absolute pain. Ice formation forces jumping and risky dashes, ground formation forces camping the hill to utilize the SDR abuse, electric stage is more or less neutral for him, since the treadmills aren't a big deal to recover through, and the wind stage botches up his control over his ASC.

The only "amazing" thing about this stage is his ability to navigate it fluidly inbetween transformations, and his ability to survive longer.

It's an "okay" stage.
Yoshi's Island: Brawl and Pictochat are his "amazing" stages.

 

[Crow!]

I have recorded there videos where I timed/was timed out. Two in which I was metaknight running the clock vs DDD and falco, and one where I was kirby vs wario. We literally couldn't hit eachother to stop the circle camping. He can plank in between transitions if you destroy the house, and when the house reappears the circle camping continues.

Bolded the actual trouble here - planking can result in timeouts even if the mansion didn't exist at all. Any argument about a stage enabling stalling must be able to work without requiring a Meta Knight to plank.

Unless the idea being proposed is that nearly every stage - especially most of the starters - should be banned in order to fix Meta Knight from ledge camping. Which is an alternative, albeit an extreme and probably very unpopular one. Especially considering that the few stages that would remain are generally very good Meta Knight stages to begin with.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think I found something that can really help us stop stalling. At the end of the game, they give you a list. At the bottom of the list there is this thing that says "longest drought". From what I have seen, this has to do with how much time you have gone without attacking(air dodges don't count). If someone tries to time you out by air dodging your moves or running away, their "longest drought" time is going to increase because they are not attacking and this can be used to determine stalling. I feel that this can help out the rule set a lot

 

[ADHD]

Bolded the actual trouble here - planking can result in timeouts even if the mansion didn't exist at all. Any argument about a stage enabling stalling must be able to work without requiring a Meta Knight to plank.

Unless the idea being proposed is that nearly every stage - especially most of the starters - should be banned in order to fix Meta Knight from ledge camping. Which is an alternative, albeit an extreme and probably very unpopular one. Especially considering that the few stages that would remain are generally very good Meta Knight stages to begin with.

So you are suggesting that to prevent the circle camping one should take time to knock the house down, then chase him while he is air camping/planking when he already has a solid lead in the first place, and repeat?

Wario can bike and jump high in the air repeatedly when the "FD" stage occurs until the house reappears.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I think I found something that can really help us stop stalling. At the end of the game, they give you a list. At the bottom of the list there is this thing that says "longest drought". From what I have seen, this has to do with how much time you have gone without attacking(air dodges don't count). If someone tries to time you out by air dodging your moves or running away, their "longest drought" time is going to increase because they are not attacking and this can be used to determine stalling. I feel that this can help out the rule set a lot

Do the attacks have to actually hit?

If the attacks don't actually have to connect, it just cripples air camping and doesn't really combat stalling or circle camping because I can simply run away and then just throw out attacks to avoid getting a high drought time

 

[SaveMeJebus]

the attacks don't actually have to hit but this makes it so that you can punish them when they are throwing out random attacks so they do not increase their drought time. In my opinion it is easier to punish someone that is doing something than it is to punish someone that is doing nothing and waiting for you to make the first mistake

 

[Luxor]

I think I found something that can really help us stop stalling. At the end of the game, they give you a list. At the bottom of the list there is this thing that says "longest drought". From what I have seen, this has to do with how much time you have gone without attacking(air dodges don't count). If someone tries to time you out by air dodging your moves or running away, their "longest drought" time is going to increase because they are not attacking and this can be used to determine stalling. I feel that this can help out the rule set a lot

To enforce this, you'd have to put a cap on how long they can stand there without hitting each other.
...
...
...
...
...
So if I hit someone with a laser occasionally and circle camp them, they lose? Surgical rules are for scrubs. Unless it's an MK LGL.

So you are suggesting that to prevent the circle camping one should take time to knock the house down, then chase him while he is air camping/planking when he already has a solid lead in the first place, and repeat?

Wario can bike and jump high in the air repeatedly when the "FD" stage occurs until the house reappears.

Punish his landing. Besides, will Wario really CP you here? MK will, I guess.
Does anyone know how long the "FD" state lasts until the stage respawns? IIRC MK can stall through it and get hit at most one time.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

how would they lose while using this rule and not by using the old rules?

 

[Joe_Cool]

hmmmmm cool

 

[Crow!]

So you are suggesting that to prevent the circle camping one should take time to knock the house down, then chase him while he is air camping/planking when he already has a solid lead in the first place, and repeat?

If your character is unable to interrupt the camping pattern more directly, then yes. If air camping is a problem for a matchup in the FD form of this stage, it's a problem pretty much anywhere.

Also, keep in mind that the would-be staller needs to earn a "solid lead in the first place." For a number of the usual suspects for timeouts, this isn't a very reliable stage for accomplishing that.

 

[-Vocal-]

To begin, Lord Helmet: you were wrong. Don't claim something unless you test it extensively.

Now.

For those that have been discussing the possibility of a rule concerning Ganoncides, I have done some testing and compiled my results and thoughts in a thread here.

Tl;dr:
-The game rarely claims Ganondorf as the victor of a Ganoncide - it didn't happen once in the 240 tests I ran.
-Port priority has an effect. If Ganon is closer to port 4 than his opponent, his opponent has a significantly higher chance at claiming victory than if the roles were reversed; judging by my data, there is at least a 50% percent chance, perhaps even 60%.
-Any rule claiming Ganondorf to be the victor of a game following a suicide would be nothing more than an arbitrary buff. People have been saying this, but now there is data to back this up as well.

 

[gallax]

I also remember someone saying that the height at which ganon performs a ganoncide may also have an influence on who the victor is, due to rotation after ganon grabs the opponent.

 

[T-block]

Thanks, Vocal. That's what I wanted to see ^^

If you ever feel like doing more testing, trying grabbing the victim from different heights (or maybe you already did). The most likely theory at the moment (proposed by AA) is that every frame, Ganondorf and his victim move down a significant amount. Sometimes the amount of movement is enough to push them both into the blastzone on the same frame, in which case we'll see a sudden death. In most cases, since Ganondorf is lower than his victim, he actually reaches the blastzone first. So miniscule adjustments (like...pixels) in where the victim is grabbed could change the result, which is why we call it essentially random.

That's just a theory though.

 

[-Vocal-]

I also remember someone saying that the height at which ganon performs a ganoncide may also have an influence on who the victor is, due to rotation after ganon grabs the opponent.

Thanks, Vocal. That's what I wanted to see ^^

If you ever feel like doing more testing, trying grabbing the victim from different heights (or maybe you already did). The most likely theory at the moment (proposed by AA) is that every frame, Ganondorf and his victim move down a significant amount. Sometimes the amount of movement is enough to push them both into the blastzone on the same frame, in which case we'll see a sudden death. In most cases, since Ganondorf is lower than his victim, he actually reaches the blastzone first. So miniscule adjustments (like...pixels) in where the victim is grabbed could change the result, which is why we call it essentially random.

That's just a theory though.

I'm not laughing at you guys: I'm laughing because I got the exact same impression while testing The thought occurred to me because Meta Knight seemed to claim victory more often when I grabbed the very top of him.

I tested it and decided that it wasn't really a factor, but I didn't do very many tests on it and after hearing both of you mention this there might be some validity to it.

Bah. Hilt hasn't given me the codes to test frame data for Olimar yet, so I might take a little time tomorrow to see what I can find out about this.

edit: It may also be a possible explanation for why victories occurred more often with MK and Jiggs - since there's a smaller target, perhaps it's more common to hit the necessary height on them as opposed to someone like Snake where it's more likely to hit the middle of him.

Though I seem to remember victories after grabbing them pretty low too Humbug, maybe I will test it...

 

[Spelt]

Surgical rules are for scrubs. Unless it's an MK LGL.

lol. so contradictory.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

lol. so contradictory.

It's there because without it, the game completely falls apart.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Unless we ban MK. It seems like the game would be pretty fine without him.

 

[-LzR-]

Without MK Brawl would be an interesting game. Too bad he isn't going anywhere.

 

[BBQTV]

if metaknight was banned would mewtwoking pick up snake? and if you dont have to use the sbr rules how is that gonna stop people from letting him play and what about mlg? im sure they dont give a **** at what sbr thinks

 

[Raziek]

if metaknight was banned would mewtwoking pick up snake? and if you dont have to use the sbr rules how is that gonna stop people from letting him play and what about mlg? im sure they dont give a **** at what sbr thinks

AFAIK, He'd probably go Marth. That would be my guess.

As for people ignoring an MK ban if it was recommended, I'm sure that would happen in a few areas, but I'm very doubtful that you would have widespread discontent. Much like this ruleset, people would rage for a couple days, then they'd learn to deal with it.

The BBR has little REAL power, but ****ed if they don't have a lot of influence.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure MLG took the BBR into consideration with their ruleset.

 

[BBQTV]

but people are still raging aren't they? and if metaknight was banned that would split the community even more then it is now probably

 

[Raziek]

but people are still raging aren't they? and if metaknight was banned that would split the community even more then it is now probably

Some are still upset, but there is nothing like there was initially.

And even if MK WAS banned, eventually people would deal with it. Some people would still host MK-tournies, I'm sure, but as a whole the community would probably accept the change. Maybe not initially, but this is probably largely due to the sheer number of people who MAIN MK.

 

[-Vocal-]

It's there because without it, the game completely falls apart.

It's still arbitrary, and the ruleset does not contain arbitrary character gameplay rules. (A case could POSSIBLY be made for the IDC, but I have a feeling it would end in a definition of stalling. A BBR member could probably address that more clearly.) Allowing arbitrary character rules would make the goal balancing the game, which the BR isn't trying to do - they just remove what must be removed in order to make the game competitive. Also, refer to my signature

if metaknight was banned would mewtwoking pick up snake? and if you dont have to use the sbr rules how is that gonna stop people from letting him play and what about mlg? im sure they dont give a **** at what sbr thinks

I actually asked him this the other day. He said he would stop playing Smash entirely. Maybe that's just his way of influencing people not to ban him, but who can say.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Really, saying "the better player didn't win" is pretty much the most simple tenant of scrub logic.

note the words sometimes

and random factors

and match-ups.

ADHD pretty much said everything I was going to say about Luigi's Mansion. On this stage, you're either abusing the stage via circle camping or ceiling things, you're destroying the stage so your opponent can't do that, you're camping when the stage is down so you can abuse it again, or you're losing. I feel like stage zoning takes priority over most other PvP elements here, and if you're admitting that circle camping is a problem with the stage up, and you have to destroy the stage to get rid of that, the stage just shouldn't be legal. The flat stage is only there for 20 seconds (IIRC), so you're pretty much saying, "Do actions punishable and advantaged to your opponent so you can have a playable stage for 20 seconds."

but hes saying the exact same **** you ****ing moron. why do you even give a **** how long the post, or "well thought out" it was. it all holds the same amount of knowledge, and youre ******** if you actually start listening to him just because he added some fancy ****ing words to **** we already knew from his previous posts

also this to some extent. I think videos and more concise information is more convincing to people (especially when we're all on a forum and stubborn), but more concise doesn't mean wordier. Some people are way too wordy and think that a "good argument" is taking a paragraph and making it 5 times longer with the same information.