Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Raziek]

Pit has other options punishing Up-b..

As far as this topic of Pit goes Smh again..

I didn't say he didn't, I'm just saying that the option that was heralded as a solution was then countered when it occurred later in the match.

Not saying he can't punish it, I just found it amusing.

 

[Pitzer]

Certain moves sometimes out prioritize at lower percents. Like I think percent has to do with Clashing in Brawl... but yeah I see what you ment..

 

[Judo777]

As far as priority goes the only difference between aerial and grounded nado (which btw this can be pretty significant) is that when you clank a grounded nado the move stops and the positions reset (like every grounded move) and when you clank an aerial nado it just continues anyway. Aerial Nados don't care about ur clank lol. However if you can manage to beat the nado hitbox (deal 9% more than it) AND not get hit by nado in the process you should be able to stuff it clean everytime. Or you can just hit MK and avoid nados hitboxes entirely.

As far as hitting B faster I have heard that it actually does make a difference but i don't honestly know what it is. I think it makes the hitboxes more active but I'm not sure.

 

[Kuro~]

Am I the only one who watched through to 8:50 where that EXACT situation happened a second time, except Earth got **** on by a glide attack for trying to punish?

Actually there's a pretty big difference between the two...one being the second time his reaction time was actually less he responded slower which is why you hear the *hugh* of bair start to come out but just barely not make it. And two the positioning was different that time.

Lmfao at people arguing about nado...look. Nair and dair both beat nado pretty solidly especially from above. Both grounded and aerial. So does ftilt.

 

[BSP]

Wouldn't pressing B give it more priority since you're leaving the ground?

 

[Steam]

Actually there's a pretty big difference between the two...one being the second time his reaction time was actually less he responded slower which is why you hear the *hugh* of bair start to come out but just barely not make it. And two the positioning was different that time.

Lmfao at people arguing about nado...look. Nair and dair both beat nado pretty solidly especially from above. Both grounded and aerial. So does ftilt.

MK also could have beaten out the bair the first time too. you can see the MK tilt his glide up before he gets hit... lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Just curious, would WoI oos be an option to use against blocked/whiffed SL? I would think that the windbox might throw off the spacing or clash w/ MK's glide attack if he releases it too soon (and Jumping w/ upB oos sounds nice w/o shield drop frames and all that), but this sounds like theorycrafting a la mode, and I haven't looked at Pit's frame data for specials much

 

[Pikabunz]

MK also could have beaten out the bair the first time too. you can see the MK tilt his glide up before he gets hit... lol

Just as Pit could've beaten the glide attack the 2nd time. He just needs to react faster.

 

[phi1ny3]

So wouldn't the viable conclusion be that it's a guessing game, and that MK fares better when it's in killing range because Pit has to be facing backwards to do bair oos in one jump?

 

[Steam]

Just as Pit could've beaten the glide attack the 2nd time. He just needs to react faster.

The problem is asking pit to react faster in that situation is a muuuuch harder thing to accomplish than MK simply canceling SL as soon as possible... Just about any given MK can do it and it's not a hard reaction for MK. But not even one of the best Pits in the world is fast enough to get that punish.

 

[Judo777]

Just curious, would WoI oos be an option to use against blocked/whiffed SL? I would think that the windbox might throw off the spacing or clash w/ MK's glide attack if he releases it too soon (and Jumping w/ upB oos sounds nice w/o shield drop frames and all that), but this sounds like theorycrafting a la mode, and I haven't looked at Pit's frame data for specials much

I don't think wind can clank stuff. But Grounded WOI is invincible frame 1 i think.

What if pit is facing MK (which seems much more likely)?

 

[Chuee]

But not even one of the best Pits in the world is fast enough to get that punish.

What does him being one of the best Pits have to do with his reaction time....

 

[Pikabunz]

Canceling SL isn't even a safe option for MK. He can still get hit.

 

[Steam]

What does him being one of the best Pits have to do with his reaction time....

with matchups we assume top play?

shuttle loop is a really fast move and hard to react to on shield. not mention you'd have to react even faster if you were facing him since you'd have to drop shield and turn around.

 

[Pikabunz]

What's wrong with using Fair?

 

[Steam]

What's wrong with using Fair?

absolutely nothing. but bair kills really early and that was their point in the first place.

 

[phi1ny3]

edit: disregard post

 

[Pikabunz]

I rather just use Fair. Bair is too risky if you're not already facing away.

 

[Kuro~]

I don't think wind can clank stuff. But Grounded WOI is invincible frame 1 i think.

What if pit is facing MK (which seems much more likely)?

Pit's grounded WoI is invincible frames 1-4 literally with *technical invincibility* on frame 5 as well. Pit's windbox is unique in that it can clank with hitboxes. OoS we can JCGrounded up B to cancel Rob dsmash, peachs dsmash, pikas dmsmash, any infinite jab agaisnt shield, tornado, and several other things i don't feel like typing. This is actually a relatively new thing that has been introduced but it has already been thoroughly tested.

Also, we could cancel Glair with WoI wind but the timing would be as difficult as snakes ftilt i imagine. All the above i mentioned are actually very easy compartively.

Also bair does work if done correctly. Fsmash works which still kills mk pretty much as early as diddy dsmash. Around 100-120. We have punishes if we want dmg or a kill. Also against GSL if he's at low % we can Dair Footstool WoI fair (which jab locks) to fsmash for a ~40-50% combo. This is fancy but actually not hard to pull off.

And as you saw in the video dash attack killed at 139 which is a pretty accurate representation of it's kill potential. Not amazing but viable nonetheless. And it resulted from a nado punish.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think were all forgetting something here.

up air is pits best aerial.

 

[Steam]

i think were all forgetting something here.

up air is pits best aerial.

and your point is?

 

[da K.I.D.]

anything mk does in the air, especially when hes gliding, will get beat by up air, which is a major point considering it stays out for a long time, and hits like 7 times for something like 16%.

that beats glide attack outright, and hits on either side of pit, therefore its the most effective and least complecated method of punishing shuttle loops. along with any other bad ideas mk gets when hes above pit.

 

[Steam]

Dair trades with it if MK spaces properly... it's also not too hard to DI out of. It also has the same issue as every punish tactic for SL on shield. it's still very difficult to react to and MK can get out of SL way earlier than the game should let him.

 

[NickRiddle]

As far as priority goes the only difference between aerial and grounded nado (which btw this can be pretty significant) is that when you clank a grounded nado the move stops and the positions reset (like every grounded move) and when you clank an aerial nado it just continues anyway. Aerial Nados don't care about ur clank lol. However if you can manage to beat the nado hitbox (deal 9% more than it) AND not get hit by nado in the process you should be able to stuff it clean everytime. Or you can just hit MK and avoid nados hitboxes entirely.

As far as hitting B faster I have heard that it actually does make a difference but i don't honestly know what it is. I think it makes the hitboxes more active but I'm not sure.

I'm not clanking with nado in any of my vids. If you clank with an aerial you cannot reset, so obviously the aerial nado keeps going.
In my vids I'm avoiding the nado hitboxes by hitting the very top ot if. I'm just showing which moves can actually hit it, as not every move can.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol, Pit's uair hitbox is monstrous.

 

[Steam]

lol, Pit's uair hitbox is monstrous.

it is. but MK can still get through it.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Lucario usmash being useful in a regular scenario!?

Ally falls for Lucario's USmash. I've killed him 3 times during tournament matches with it. (Of course I've never won a game against him though).

 

[Steam]

Ally falls for Lucario's USmash. I've killed him 3 times during tournament matches with it. (Of course I've never won a game against him though).

YOU SHOULD HAVE TOLD TRELAAAAAAA

/caps

 

[NickRiddle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4lzlpC8oUQ

 

[Flayl]

I'm sorry I made you angry, but...

You showed that hitting MK from above works. That wasn't my problem. My problem is with hitting MK from the side or getting close enough that if the hitbox of the tornado was active, it would hit/clank with you.

 

[Chuee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4lzlpC8oUQ

You had to search for the stage maker.
Son I am disappoint.

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm sorry I made you angry, but...

You showed that hitting MK from above works. That wasn't my problem. My problem is with hitting MK from the side or getting close enough that if the hitbox of the tornado was active, it would hit/clank with you.

You guys were talking about tornado's supposed priority.
I never said anything about hitting tornado from the side. You have to be crazy, or have amazing hitboxes (Ness fair, Ike anything, MK anything) to even think about that...

You had to search for the stage maker.
Son I am disappoint.

I have never gone there before.

 

[Flayl]

I'm glad that we're in agreement then and leave it at that. Could you ask the BBR/smash lab to post the info on tornado's hitboxes? I don't know the specifics, and it's helped before (there's a thread about shieldgrabbing it by mikehaze somewhere)

 

[NickRiddle]

Shieldgrabbing is it the PSC thing...
Also, some pivot-grabs just outrange nado. (And a couple of normal grabs.)

Basically, you have to compare grab hitboxes and the tornado hitbox.

Also, I'm not in the Smash Lab.

 

[Chuee]

I have never gone there before.

Lies, I saw the duelist stage.

 

[NickRiddle]

Lies, I saw the duelist stage.

I didn't make it.

 

[san.]

Tornado itself isn't a big deal, but its surprising speed and insane mixup potential does wonders. MK can use it in situations where the enemy will have difficulty preparing their anti-nado attack.

For some characters, it's not worth it to try to even hit that part since tornado is too maneuverable and there is little room for error for the other guy. I see more running away and punishing the lag, or even OoS for some characters.

 

[Chuee]

I didn't make it.

Oh ok.
btw my favorite part
"To steam and Flayl and everyone that disagreed. Suck my ****. Bye."

 

[DeLux]

I'm glad that we're in agreement then and leave it at that. Could you ask the BBR/smash lab to post the info on tornado's hitboxes? I don't know the specifics, and it's helped before (there's a thread about shieldgrabbing it by mikehaze somewhere)

We're working on it.

There will be a release soon*


* I say soon because it was supposed be out a while ago, but it's not out yet, so I'll start pushing my peoples to get crackin

 

[Judo777]

Tornado itself isn't a big deal, but its surprising speed and insane mixup potential does wonders. MK can use it in situations where the enemy will have difficulty preparing their anti-nado attack.

For some characters, it's not worth it to try to even hit that part since tornado is too maneuverable and there is little room for error for the other guy. I see more running away and punishing the lag, or even OoS for some characters.

^^^^ Sooooo much this. Alot of characters have anti tornado techniques (probably a solid majority) but the issue is it requires such delicate spacing and/or preparation and MKcan use it in an extremely large number of situations that you can't always space around or or have the preparation. Its just so much easier for MK than it is for you in that situation.

@Nick yea i know I was simply giving some info on what I understand of nado is all.