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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0
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Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
Ice climbers ****ing **** with bananas...
At most i'd say 55:45 diddy. But i could see it being even. It just requires more desynch gameplay than usual.
At most i'd say 55:45 diddy. But i could see it being even. It just requires more desynch gameplay than usual.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
i man holding 2 bananas with jab locking iceblocks, infinite cgs, one of the greatest defensive walls ever, and true combos out the ***........ that is a scary thought. i wonder if ICs could do desynced glide tosses or jump cancel throws.
seriously that sounds scary as **** if an ICs had literally perfected desynched double banana play on top of there already awesome bs. but wat are the chances that an ICs is that well trained in the diddy MU? until that guys comes out of nowhere and starts destroying diddy kongs, all we can acknowledge now is that banana's stop cgs and separate them well enough
seriously that sounds scary as **** if an ICs had literally perfected desynched double banana play on top of there already awesome bs. but wat are the chances that an ICs is that well trained in the diddy MU? until that guys comes out of nowhere and starts destroying diddy kongs, all we can acknowledge now is that banana's stop cgs and separate them well enough
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
I don't think they base their ratios on how difficult it is to CG the character or else they would be like +4 vs mk. Unless you mean it's difficult getting the grab then that's a different story.
Steam
Smash Hero
nades also like to break up CGs
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Snake is not ICs hardest matchup.
He is not the hardest to CG. If he IS the hardest to CG, then it would be fair to say that the IC doesn't know the matchup, because if you CG correctly, the timing window is about as hard as punishing someone during a forced getup animation. Aka super easy
He is not the hardest to CG. If he IS the hardest to CG, then it would be fair to say that the IC doesn't know the matchup, because if you CG correctly, the timing window is about as hard as punishing someone during a forced getup animation. Aka super easy
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Can't you like... SDI hobbling? Isn't it pretty easy lol?
MK vs ICs is pretty tough for ICs, though
MK vs ICs is pretty tough for ICs, though
Obviously the latter.
Exactly. And Snake kills Nana really easily via Fsmash/Dair.
I've heard the CG is difficult from numerous ICs and that he's easier to hobble, but that has nothing to do with actually knowing the Snake matchup. Wtf.
Also MK may be harder but it's definitely fair to say that Snake has better practical options vs ICs than anyone besides MK.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
iirc Meep beat Ally before he quit, and Ally has a lot of ICs practice under his belt. It's a **** MU until you get really, really good w/ ICs, then it becomes a tad more leveled off imo. It's a very tedious MU, and imo the Japanese matches of said characters are a pretty good example of how it pans out (minus ICs being free on crazy CPs).
Fsmash can be alleviated if the Popo jumps when they're separated and if he's still close, which makes Nana jump to join up w/ him. Now if one is really far away, yeah she's done for
And yes, Snake is probably up there in hardest MUs, although MK and Wario are tougher imo.
I would like to say that in theorycraft land aka top play, nades don't affect CGs, but tbh they pretty much screw around with their little ****** minds all the time and you pretty much have to buffer every single throw to stop nades from coming out. However, you can also CG away from grenades
real talk though, I find it hard to CG snake unless I do hobbling or the easy dthrow -> fthrow at low percents.
Fsmash can be alleviated if the Popo jumps when they're separated and if he's still close, which makes Nana jump to join up w/ him. Now if one is really far away, yeah she's done for
And yes, Snake is probably up there in hardest MUs, although MK and Wario are tougher imo.
I would like to say that in theorycraft land aka top play, nades don't affect CGs, but tbh they pretty much screw around with their little ****** minds all the time and you pretty much have to buffer every single throw to stop nades from coming out. However, you can also CG away from grenades
real talk though, I find it hard to CG snake unless I do hobbling or the easy dthrow -> fthrow at low percents.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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You don't need to hobble snake for it to be an easy CG.
Based on frame testing, up to around 56%, there is 5+ frames of a regrab window on a dthrow CG. Up until about 130% it's 4 frames. The problem that people have with the CG is that they don't understand the mechanics well enough and they try to go faster than they need to. In comparison, the window to punish on hobbling is 7 frames.
So if the IC is doing ANYTHING that isn't Dthrow CG walking Snake across the level, they're placing unnecessary tech difficulties on themselves, thus showing they don't know the matchup inside and out.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Grabbing the dthrow on snake is so easy. I can never understand why IC mains have issues with it. I don't even play the character that much/well, and even I can recognize that all you have to do is wait a little longer to grab him.
Why would Snake use Fsmash if Popo was near by? It's not like Ftilt or Bthrow doesn't provide more separation as well as damage. Once ICs are at 70% or so, (though possibly lower), any separating hit will give Snake enough time to kill Nana with Nair/Dair/Fsmash.Fsmash can be alleviated if the Popo jumps when they're separated and if he's still close, which makes Nana jump to join up w/ him. Now if one is really far away, yeah she's done for
[QUOTEAnd yes, Snake is probably up there in hardest MUs, although MK and Wario are tougher imo.[/QUOTE]I dont know anything about wario. I can see how it would probably be really bad though.
Nades definitely stop CGs for the most part at top level play... Watch some vids of the matchup. I'm not saying I've never seen an ICs player CG a Snake away from nades, but for the most part good snake players will keep safe from 0-deaths and it's the actual nades blowing up and damaging them+ juggling that gets them killed.I would like to say that in theorycraft land aka top play, nades don't affect CGs, but tbh they pretty much screw around with their little ****** minds all the time and you pretty much have to buffer every single throw to stop nades from coming out. However, you can also CG away from grenades
Don't bring frame data into this. How easy something is to execute is completely subjective. Anyway Snake being difficult to get CGs on should have more to do with Nades than the difficulty of CGs. ICs players dropping CGs is something else entirely and more related to skill and execution at different levels than matchup ratios...
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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How easy something is to execute is completely subjective? Ok for the sake of your argument, let's accept that.
If you operate that based on that logic, then a player that has the exact same level of chaingrab technical skill would find Metaknight harder to CG based on the level of specificity needed in both spacing and timing in order to complete the CG consistently. Both the spacing AND timing window to CG MK accurately is more narrow than it is on Snake. But you don't see MK's getting dropped half as much as Snake.
From a subjective standpoint, EVERY criteria of CGing is comparatively easier/more flexible/more likely to be hit consistently for Snake than it is on MK. It's just usually the players are unfamiliar with the CG. Which is strictly a matchup knowledge problem.
At the same time, if the IC keeps grabbing you when you have a nade, that's also them being deficient in the matchup. Most ICs really don't know the matchup at all. If they know it, it isn't a bad matchup.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
snake is easy to cg... IC vs diddy is even.. IC worst MU is zss overall. Not me personally but nick riddle is right its is there hardest. snake s is 40-60 snake. The snake MU is stage dependant for it can be good or worst. at worst and zss vs IC is 35-65 or 40-60 at best.(this mu is stage dependant also).
@halberd theres no such thing as a hard cg for the IC themselves. its all dependant on how the player is. Like lets look at me and Mero. Mero has trouble sometimes CG mid weights. But he ***** heavey weights like rob and snake and light wieghts like mk and pika. For me its more lightweights and mid weights with some exceptions to the mid weights, heavey weights, and light weights. i cant CG zss for **** sometimes but i can CG jigglypuff for days. I can also CG Lucas for days but not ness. I can CG DK but not DDD sometimes. all player dependant bro. No such thing as diffuculty for a (character). maybe a player yes but no not character.
I get grabs on snake players like Hrnut and Afro and pretty much any snake i play but most times i dont finish the CG because as a "player" i drop them. i just try to fight them without CG is how i win alot except against Hrnut of coarse because he beats me in fighting like that.
@halberd theres no such thing as a hard cg for the IC themselves. its all dependant on how the player is. Like lets look at me and Mero. Mero has trouble sometimes CG mid weights. But he ***** heavey weights like rob and snake and light wieghts like mk and pika. For me its more lightweights and mid weights with some exceptions to the mid weights, heavey weights, and light weights. i cant CG zss for **** sometimes but i can CG jigglypuff for days. I can also CG Lucas for days but not ness. I can CG DK but not DDD sometimes. all player dependant bro. No such thing as diffuculty for a (character). maybe a player yes but no not character.
I get grabs on snake players like Hrnut and Afro and pretty much any snake i play but most times i dont finish the CG because as a "player" i drop them. i just try to fight them without CG is how i win alot except against Hrnut of coarse because he beats me in fighting like that.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
ok when i played Nick riddle zss its diffrent from Hrnuts. last time me and riddle played he beat me in a set 2-0 each game was 1stock mid precent. He wasnt really running away ethier. so now that i train with hrnuts zss (heres a match of his zss in a mm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebqwHI3Vs_A) i try to learn the MU more because he knows the IC mu with zss very well since he lives with a Very good retierd IC player in FL. so when i stay over at there house they teach me and trust me its not pretty when i play him. sometimes i win but barely. Zss jump is amazing on IC easy to escape, um she has like no lag on her moves so you have to catch her in the middle of somthing not after and her Dsmash is **** IF ic dont read it and run and shield same with forward B. It is very difficult chasing her down and edgegaurding her. Im going to put up vids of me playing his Zss soon and also im going to put up AT that i learned and idk if anyone else knows about when edgegaurding characters like her. I have this move where if she try to recover you can grab her with nana while popo is edgehogging her. If you mess it up though your pretty much dead.
The Mu for IC is straight up reads. How well do you know Zss players and what they are going to mostlikly do. In terms of movement, not attacks. The fight is striaght up reads for IC like no Lie. I think thats why me and cheese do not have a zss problem for tourney yet. He plays snakee so he knows. I play Hrnut now and Zss is one of my legit secondarys.
O and also that video is for to show ppl how good his zss is note that hes playing a 35-65 MU
The Mu for IC is straight up reads. How well do you know Zss players and what they are going to mostlikly do. In terms of movement, not attacks. The fight is striaght up reads for IC like no Lie. I think thats why me and cheese do not have a zss problem for tourney yet. He plays snakee so he knows. I play Hrnut now and Zss is one of my legit secondarys.
O and also that video is for to show ppl how good his zss is note that hes playing a 35-65 MU
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I just **** them.
Tis doesn't apply to everything. It's dependent on what kind of reaction something actually requires.
"Based on frame testing, up to around 56%, there is 5+ frames of a regrab window on a dthrow CG. Up until about 130% it's 4 frames. The problem that people have with the CG is that they don't understand the mechanics well enough and they try to go faster than they need to. In comparison, the window to punish on hobbling is 7 frames."
What is it that makes people try to go faster than they need to? I dont know any ICs chaingrabs. But I know that the size of a window isn't as important as the visual cues that allow you to react to it, and from what point visually do you input to continue the chaingrab from there.
For example, reacting in 10-15 frames from a visual clue such as a CG might be easier than reacting in 4-7 frames. Once again I don't know ICs chaingrabs, but saying people think it's harder because "they don't understand" doesn't make any sense. That's like saying people lose to Metaknight because they don't understand...
Once again. No idea. But going back to what I said, there's clearly an explainable reactionary reason for Snake being harder to CG.
Visual stimulation to react to is impossible to quantify. For example, I can say that Diddy's Ftilt and Dedede's ftilt both have reasonably obvious startup to react to, this is entirely specific to my reaction time and perception of the visual (depending on what you look at while you play).
SMH... everything you said before lost all credibility. Have you ever seen a top ICs player play before?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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How is any of this being based off reaction? If the IC is grabbing on pure reaction via visual cue, then that would indicate he doesn't have experience in the matchup because he hasn't done the CG before.
Given the IC is the one that initiates the timing on the throw, it's not about reaction. It's about executing a timing that has nothing to do with how well someone can react to a visual cue. In an ideal world, if the IC player knew the matchup inside and out, they wouldn't even need visual cues to execute the chain grab.
I'm not advocating to close your eyes and CG. But it's possible to do. So obviously all the stimulus and reaction nonsense you're talking about doesn't apply because the CG'er isn't reacting. He's executing a tech that has a finite window. Said Finite window is easily measurable by data. It doesn't change or move. If they don't know it, that's their fault and is a matchup problem.
All a moot point because we aren't talking about reacting to something. The difference is that the initiation of the event isn't in the control of the opponent. It's solely in control of the IC player.
Most ICs are bad at the matchup and don't have the technical precision to play it. If they did and played the character even close to its capability, it ceases being a bad matchup.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Can someone explain to me why Luigi has a -2 on ICs? Luigi kinda puts in work on ICs.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
Halberd just saying I go by tempo when cging now because if I try to watch the grabs to much (for myself ) I can't focus. some times when I get the grab against mk I look away from the screen.
@kain
I'm more scared of a rush down then a camp. Camp=time to think imo
I beat most campy mks except seibrik but I played dumb in that match and he too advantage to come back.
@oreo up air and shield grab all his ground attacks and air attacks but spaced back air
@kain
I'm more scared of a rush down then a camp. Camp=time to think imo
I beat most campy mks except seibrik but I played dumb in that match and he too advantage to come back.
@oreo up air and shield grab all his ground attacks and air attacks but spaced back air
Well once again, here's something I noticed, and I'm sure you can answer it for me since you're an ICs player.
There are two ways to CG. You can CG on rhythm. Or you can CG and "hit confirm" your chaingrabs. When most people CG MK, they do this with a rhythm, so the chaingrab has a distinct meter to it, and ever CG is at the same speed and has equal gaps between it.
However, when ICs players chaingrab snake, this isn't the case, especially if they're hobbling. For example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GejPBXcsz3M#t=04m20s
Like 10 seconds in Vinnie drops a chaingrab on me. Hobbling seems to be something that it's easier to monitor while doing then just do on rhythm, so explain to me while every ICs player I've played with Snake prefers to Hobble him.
I don't need to have an explanation for what causes the difference because there clearly is one. People methodically CG Snake while they CG MK and Marth/other chars on Rhythm...
Can you say why this is using frame data? Maybe. Maybe not. But the timing is probably something that you can't just "aim for" and is easier with visual cues.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
i dont hobble unless the snake player is bad at smash DIing. like i never hobble Hrnut because he smash DI's across the stage. your totally right about how IC players do genrally hobbles snake. but like i said its all dependant on the IC players style. Alot of IC players like to CG the same way. I try to go for the best possible CG against a specific person. Like Hrnut. I dont hobble him. his smash DI is really good. o and i can CG by rythm on snake but again im not like most IC players so halberd your right to a certian exstent. When so many IC players do the things your saying right now. there is no arguement in it lux. So IC players have to switch up there style so that this educated guess would not be the truth. so he is techniclly right.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
Dewdadash's DDD vs Ike 10:90
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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No, I don't need frame data to tell you that they have probably made the conscious decision to do lights on "rhythm" while doing the CG on snake by visual cue.
One leads to obviously more consistent result. But that "rhythm" comes from knowing the CG inside and out. Operating only on visual cue or "hit confirm" shows that aren't as comfortable or familiar with that CG.
If the IC learned to do the Snake CG "on rhythm", then it would reflect that they know the CG better and are thus better at the matchup.
Hobbling is easier on a technical level because of the frame data as well =\
You can sit there and mash jump to ensure a footstool, so there is no timing mechanism or visual cue to operate on so it's not really applicable to whatever point you're trying to make. It is also easier to hit a hobble on a heavy character compared to a light character because of base knockback and knock back growth geometry as well as Back Throw frame data. At which point, forced getup has 7 frames of punishment. So it's the equivalent of doing a CG at 7 frames of window to hit, compared to the CG being 5 frames.
Either way, if the IC is good at the matchup, they would by definition have a consistency of CGs within the 1 drop per game to factor in tripping (unless you're like me and are JUST starting to do only tripless CGs at which point that number can be turned to 0. Assuming I get to the consistency that I want.)
Regardless, all of this consistently shows that if the ICs would get out of their own head, Snake is easier to CG/hobble/infinite 0 to death in every virtual way than another light character. If the IC is bad at that, it's their fault because every factor dictates it should be easier.
The reason heavier characters are harder to chaingrab is because it takes longer and you have more to worry about in terms of spacing.
Red I cg snake based off a rythm using all dthrows.
In reality every character is the same difficulty it just matters which ones you practice more and how confident you are.
Red I cg snake based off a rythm using all dthrows.
In reality every character is the same difficulty it just matters which ones you practice more and how confident you are.
lmao, the callout. wasnt ready for that oneDewdadash's DDD vs Ike 10:90
Hylian nailed it. The reason characters like MK and G&W are easy to do is that you can "mindlessly" buffer the throw commands and get the grab everytime. You can't do that to Snake or Dedede because of their weight delaying the throw, which means you have to learn the timing for that.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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That's not necessarily true for everyone.
At this point, I find the light characters harder for me to CG and have to think about timing and things more than on heavies and there's nothing "mindless" about it because I have to consciously factor in cooldowns and spacings for lights. Heavies I can just go and not think about stuff and combined with the more flexible timing windows and it's much easier for me.
But that's because I'm doing tripless CGs only now. If you dont' believe me, try Dthrow walking jigglypuff across FD back and forth twice at a reasonably unmashable speed, and softturning a tripless bthrow. Then compare that to doing the same to Bowser. One is like 10x easier.
At this point, I find the light characters harder for me to CG and have to think about timing and things more than on heavies and there's nothing "mindless" about it because I have to consciously factor in cooldowns and spacings for lights. Heavies I can just go and not think about stuff and combined with the more flexible timing windows and it's much easier for me.
But that's because I'm doing tripless CGs only now. If you dont' believe me, try Dthrow walking jigglypuff across FD back and forth twice at a reasonably unmashable speed, and softturning a tripless bthrow. Then compare that to doing the same to Bowser. One is like 10x easier.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I personally love CGing using the mid-weight alternating throw because it covers a pretty wide spectrum (bthrow -> fthrow), and it's probably because I use ICs the most against Marth/Peach/Lucario/TL a bit lol.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Because I just do it. I understand the MU is ridiculously hard to get a grab on both of them, but I do well in them anyways
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Riiiiight. That alone does not make it -2. Give me a better detailed answer than that. I'm pretty legit at the Luigi/IC MU and it's not anywhere near -2. I'll settle for 0, hell it could even be +1 in Luigi's favor.
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