OFFICIAL AZ Power Rankings & Social Thread (Updated: 11/27/13)

[Jar'd]

My suggestion is still relevant.

 

[Pandaxen]

......


touché........

 

[Rooktionary]

HEY ARIZONA. Im getting stationed in washington in december ima miss you guys, even though ive only been here for 3 months. its been real.

and Pandaxen! im talking to your brother right now lol. apparently he lives pretty close to where ill be stationed XD

 

[forward]

I wonder if AZ can host a regional in January...

Also, if anyone is interested, I voted on my tier list for the MBR. This is my list.

Bowser #20
Captain Falcon #6
Dr. Mario #13
Donkey Kong #16
Falco #5
Fox #3
Ganondorf #10
Ice Climbers #7
Jigglypuff #1
Kirby #26
Link #17
Luigi #14
Mario #15
Marth #8
Mewtwo #12
Mr. Game & Watch #23
Ness #24
Peach #4
Pichu #25
Pikachu #11
Roy #18
Samus #9
Sheik #2
Yoshi #21
Young Link #22
Zelda #19

Looking at the list now though, I'm thinking I should move Doc up higher. Maybe to #9

 

[Silly Kyle]

I'm glad you thought Peach was #4 <3

 

[Pandaxen]

Wtf i have a brother in washington?!?!?!?!

 

[Tee ay eye]

I wonder if AZ can host a regional in January...

What particularly prompted this?

 

[Twin_A]

Peach above falco!? Sheik above fox!?!? Jiggs above all of them!?!?!? Well that last one I can kind of understand lol.

And you guys should host a regional. I'd try to go :D

 

[Rooktionary]

Wtf i have a brother in washington?!?!?!?!

shiiii- apparently not. theres some guy named pandacheck (or somethin) who said he had a bro in AZ. so i was like PANDAcheck.... PANDAxen!? and he said yes.. lyin *****es

 

[forward]

What particularly prompted this?

Because I like going to big tournaments but I don't like travelling very far to do so.

 

[Jane]

Why can't you understand other languages? They're talking about the same thing!

... lulz

 

[Dark Shifter]

I wonder if AZ can host a regional in January...

this should happen!

 

[Rubyiris]

that list is a joke.

 

[Twin_A]

you're a joke

kidding.

Anyways you guys should host a national in January. I would be all over that like Bryce being thrown in the river.

...ah good times. I miss camping

 

[tw1n]

Lol I would try to make it for the January one. It all depends on the timing tho. And the weather. And transportation.... sigh.

That list is ok but I still don't think jiggs is the best. I'd give that to fox.

 

[Jane]

randomish, but im glad i joined the smash community just in time for the last az regional because i got to meet the twins :D otherwise all i would have is tales and legends

 

[tw1n]

<3 you Jane I'm just glad we went to Genesis because thats the only reason we went to the AZ Grand Challenge =D

 

[Rubyiris]

i still think the tier list goes:

fox
falco
sheik
marth
peach
jiggs
falcon
ics

samus
ganon
doc
mario
pika
weegee














































bad characters

 

[forward]

That tier list is so 2007 lol.

 

[KosukeKGA]

fluffy prince with stabby mcstabstab will always be my top <3

 

[Tee ay eye]

what was your reasoning behind making sheik #2?

actually, what was your reasoning behind the whole thing? tourney results, character potential, or what?

 

[S l o X]

that's the weirdest list i've seen.

marth is definitely in my top 5 and peach is definitely below falcon to me.

/interestingface

 

[Jane]

I wonder if AZ can host a regional in January...

Also, if anyone is interested, I voted on my tier list for the MBR. This is my list.

Jigglypuff #1
Sheik #2
Fox #3
Peach #4
Falco #5
Captain Falcon #6
Ice Climbers #7
Marth #8
Samus #9
Ganondorf #10
Pikachu #11
Mewtwo #12
Dr. Mario #13
Luigi #14
Mario #15
Donkey Kong #16
Link #17
Roy #18
Zelda #19
Bowser #20
Yoshi #21
Young Link #22
Mr. Game & Watch #23
Ness #24
Pichu #25
Kirby #26

Looking at the list now though, I'm thinking I should move Doc up higher. Maybe to #9

reordered for convenience

 

[forward]

I took a little bit of everything into consideration. Jiggs I say is the best because of tournament results and the fact that she is an uncommon character. She gives the player the advantage of having better match up knowledge than the opponent.

Sheik, a little similar. Amsah showed her potential, but other than that tourney results are scarce, so I used my own judgement on match up knowledge. I think Sheik's worst match up after Jiggs is fox, and that match up is only 50/50. I give the advantage to sheik though because she is less common, so match up knowledge will be in her favor.

Fox, he could be number 2, but he is very common and that it holds him back. Everyone knows what to do against Fox, so I think players who use him will not do as well because they will fight people who have a lot of Fox experience. He's good enough that he can adapt, but they are random low tiers out there who will take him out of tournaments.

Peach - Always been a great character. Armada has put her high up on tournament results. She doesn't do as well against Falcon as Fox and Sheik, so I put her down a few because of that. In PAL she might be 2 or 3 since Sheik and Fox are nerfed (If she's 3rd in PAL then I would put Falcon 2nd).

Falco - Loses to 2-4 character by 45/55 I'd say. He's so close that it's hard to call, others would put him higher and I can understand that. 45/55 is not set in stone, that's just my opinion.

Falcon - He's better in the Peach match up than Falco, but he loses to Falco and does worse against Fox and Sheik.

I'll get to more later

 

[Taj278]

My List

Jigglypuff
Sheik
Fox
Peach

Falco
Falcon

Marth
ICs
Pikachu

Doc
Samus/Ganon

Mario
Luigi/DK
Link

YL
M2
Zelda
G&W
Roy

Ness/Yoshi
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

I separated the characters into spaced brackets based on similarities in tournament viability and character strength. There are a couple more groups than normal lists, so I don't know what to label each group.

I completely agree with Sean's top 6.

I'm convinced with tourney results and recent performances that Doc has the one-up on Samus currently, and Samus and Ganon are about even in overall character strength and match-ups. Samus does better against the flavor of the month spacies and Ganon isn't too far behind, but Ganon does better against the floaties, while Samus isn't too far behind. Both get beat by Sheik and the premier Samus and Ganon's are doing about the same in tournament overall.

Luigi and DK as different as they are, both kinda have similar weaknesses, (Sheik), but both aren't being represented as much lately. PKM Vodka has been running Falcon in tourney, Vudujin didn't make it out of pools at Apex unfortunately, and I haven't seen Bum, Mexican, Ka Master, or Pac Man in a while. So I think the character potential is where those players left them. They both like the spacies match-up and both can do decently in the Marth match-up. (Vudujin almost beat IB and forced his Sheik out)

Pikachu's placement is just evidence of what Axe is doing with Pikachu. It is interesting that, I find myself unconsciously implementing a lot of Axe's stuff the more I play Pikachu, and if I'm pretty sure if other Pikachu's develop their control more, Pikachu will have more representation and do pretty well, consistently. Pikachu's worst match-ups are most of the top tiers, with Falcon being their best match-up, but from what I’ve observed, Pikachu does well enough against spacies, CF, and Marth to be viable. The Peach, and Jiggs match-ups are difficult and the Sheik match-up is borderline impossible, but Sheiks are scarce right now, and the other two characters are less common. Fast fallers are still flavor of the month.

I’m still waiting on a reason to put Yoshi in low tier. It’s just not there yet. I’m still convinced Yoshi and Ness are about even because they have similar match-ups and problems.

What do you guys think? I can go into more detail if you guys want.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I really like your lists... especially with Peach being Top 4 lol.

My main concern and issue is why does everyone think Marth is like 8th best? I still consider him to be one of the best characters in the game.

 

[forward]

IMO, marth goes 50/50 with Fox and Falco at best, the way the metagame has evolved that technical inconsistency is less of an issue is making the match harder as time goes on for marth. He loses to Jiggs, sheik, and Falcon. Peach is, I don't know. I can see it 50/50, or 45/55 in either's favor. Recent results though have shown 55/45 peach's favor though.

 

[Taj278]

That's also my reasoning for Marth not being one of the best characters in the game as well. As people get more frame precise, many of Marth's "safe" options become punishable. Like attacking between double forward airs and forward smash. There are also more universal edgeguards against him that are extremely potent. His match-up against spacies, Peach, and ICs are all he has going for him in top tier.

Also, Armada says the match-up for Peach vs. Marth is 55-45 in Marth's favor.

 

[forward]

I can understand why Armada would say that. Marth is more popular in Europe and they get to play his Peach more often, learning his style and tricks. In that case, where the metagame is more evolved for the match, it makes sense.

 

[Taj278]

Yeah, and he definitely plays the match-up from both sides, which is why I respect his opinion on that match-up quite a bit.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Fox/Peach 70-30 maybe 65-35 in Fox favor.

Terrible matchup.
Lasers is hella gay so you have to go to him all the time. Look at Jman and i guess everyone understand how guy lasers is.

Fox is also really good to KO peach with that crazy uppsmash and he have so much guarantee stuff at her.
Fox shine is also a really good move to gimping her.

Marth
60-40 in Marths favor.

Better range better combos and hes faster.
You need perfect spacing all the time and Marth still have the advantages.
People overrated Peach is this matchup alot right now.

Falco: 60-40 in Peachs favor (maybe 55-45)
Peachs have not that much problem with lasers.
Powershield d-smash or powershield laser to grab is hella good =).

Also Peach Edgeguard and combos **** him =).
The bad thing is plattform camping but Peach still have a good matchup here.

IC: 75-25 in Peachs favor

This matchups is so good.

Fair is the key to beat IC if you hit Nana/pobo once Nana is dead.

Just give nana another fair and then one more.
Its really easy to avoid grabs with FC fair.

Also turnips is good when you have separate them (with a d-smash for axample).
If you have one of them one right side and the other one at your left side turnip is really good to stop Pobo to coming too you too fast.

Falco vs Peach
60-40 in Falcons favor (maybe a bit more)

This matchup is really hard =(

Your turnip approach is not good hes just nairing through them.
Hes combos is hella gay and hes really fast so have a good spacing against him is really hard.
Also hes d-throw to knee is a really good way to KO her.

Sheik/ Peach 55-45 in Sheiks Favor

NTSC grab is really good against her so avoid them don´t play to aggressive.

WD back to d-tilt is the best thing in this matchup so learn that spacing perfectly.
One d-tilt and you can give Sheik so much damage so she don´t wanna play more

Shieks recovery is easy to punish.
- drop with you flaot bair is really good (do it quick)
- if She´s doing her up then you d-tilt her (like i said d-tilt is so good).
When you have d-tilt her this happend.

1: She don´t DI and have kinda high damage (around 75)- You jump up (and wave land) at the platform and doing sweetspoot upsmash (she´s dying at around 100 damage at BF)

If you don´t have platforms u-air her if you know she´s dying or do Nair (so she flying away from the stage) if she haven´t enough damage.

Peach/Ganon 60-40 in Peachs favor (Liguini says 55-45 maybe that true he have more experience in the matchup i guess but Peach still have a good matchup here).

Alot turnips
-Ganon is big so its easy to hit him and then you can do a really good combos to edgeguard.

The only hard thing is to avoid Fair but our turnip is really good against it.
Ganos recovery is so bad so that´s no problem.

So hopefully this is something good =).

This is a quote from Armada in Peach's matchup thread.

 

[Tee ay eye]

because 60/40 and 55/45 are soooo game-breakingly different

 

[Taj278]

Interesting, I'm just saying what Armada told me in person at Apex.

 

[tw1n]

Fox, he could be number 2, ... but there are random low tiers out there who will take him out of tournaments.

Cough Axe Cough.

These lists are pretty solid, but I believe Jiggs will drop down alot once people figure out how to play against her.

 

[Rubyiris]

i stll say hes wrong about the flaco matchup. the only people who he has ever played who played the matchup correctly are pp and zhu who he NARROWLY beat, mosly due to them getting impatient and approaching at bad times, or doing something stupid.

falco/peach is at-least even, if not in falcos favor if played correctly.

peach just punishes falco harder for mistakes. falco just makes it a ****ing chore getting in on him in the first place and chips away at peach due to limited/bad mobility.

also fox does not have a single bad m/u.

 

[forward]

I don't think Falco spacing game is as effective on peach as other characters because she can float. She makes Falco take a lot more risks when fighting her, which is probably why it looked like Zhu/PP made bad approaches. They were probably the same as other approaches but Armada adapted and punished for them. Also, those are two of the best Falcos in the world. Armada beats them, and he beats EU falcos, who else would he need to beat?

Also, things like "if played correctly" don't really give much to the match. It's a subjective term, people have different ideas on the correct way to play a match up. It's the same thing as saying "in theory," where you say if both people play perfectly. That will never happen because people make mistakes, and I think that how some characters are more likely to have technical errors when played becomes a factor.

I think the idea that fox does not have a single bad match up is a common idea, and it may even be correct, but not a single fox player knows how to correctly play every match. That idea is one of the reasons that fox has become so popular, with good/above average fox players popping up in every region. When those fox players go out of state, however, they are going to play against a character they haven't played before/have less experience with who knows the fox match up better than them. This is the reason I cannot put fox as the best character. He is too common, and chances are someone knows the match up respective to their character better than that fox player.

 

[Rubyiris]

no complaints from me. that post covered any arguments i have.

 

[Iron Dragon]

heh nvm lol.

 

[Taj278]

OMFG good ****, Sean!

Yeah, the only time the "Fox is overplayed" argument is weak is if there is undeniable evidence of Fox players consistently dominating everyone. This just isn't the case, Fox is a great character with great representation, but just isn't holding it down enough in the current metagame. This happens in other games, too, but the results vary based on the actual strength of the character. I can cite examples of both cases in multiple games.

The player's ability to respond to the flavor of the month and the character's capability of even competing against the flavor of the month are the only things that allow for representation of other characters.

Fox is best in theory, but taking human limitations into consideration, Fox is just really, really strong, but Jiggs and Sheik have more margin for error. Fox still has enough strength as a character to hold Peach at #4 with match-up advantages, but Falco doesn't quite take Peach's spot, especially with the rise of powershielding, out-of-shield play, and refined edgeguarding from multiple characters (especially Peach players lately).

 

[forward]

Tony: I'm not sure if Jiggs and Sheik have more "margin" for error, as in, they can make more errors than fox and be less punished. That may be true, Fox does get hurt by a lot of combos, but so does sheik, and Jiggly puff dies early. I think it is more that Jiggs and Sheik are less likely to make mistakes because they are not as technically demanding.

Maybe that's what you meant or you believe that but didn't word it that way, but I wanted to point it out because I think it is important. I would even argue that at lower levels of play Fox is less likely to be punished for mistakes because weaker opponents cannot react/anticipate these mistakes where as it is a little easier against other character. At these levels, Fox can use tech skill without being aware of the results, but just throwing out a lot of attacks, not always the best spaced and not always with the swiftest execution, but they get away with it because the opponent cannot punish it.

As players get better, it becomes easier to punish fox's bad spacing and slow execution than it is for the fox to pull off precise spacing with perfect execution.

Another thing on the Peach/Falco match I just noticed from watching some matches is that is very risky for Falco to follow up on attacks. Examples would be, if Falco hits peach in the air with a laser, it is dangerous to follow it up because peach's nair comes out quick enough to hit falco. After shine > j/dj spike, it is risky to follow up with shine or up tilt because peach can float and make falco miss. There are more of these, but I think it just shows the general match up trend that Peach has enough options to deal with Falco's offense that gives her the advantage in the match.