Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Bones0]

I don't think it cancels all lag... I know with Mario it happens all the time when you FH and uair right as you get above the platform. The move's hitbox doesn't come out and you can't L-cancel it. Another common one is Marth's LH dair onto the stage. If you do it too low the same thing happens. I'd assume Yoshi's is the same, but not sure.

 

[Blu]

I don't think it cancels all lag... I know with Mario it happens all the time when you FH and uair right as you get above the platform. The move's hitbox doesn't come out and you can't L-cancel it. Another common one is Marth's LH dair onto the stage. If you do it too low the same thing happens. I'd assume Yoshi's is the same, but not sure.

Granted I don't have an AR to check, but I was just going off of my best rationale since I saw no lag in between his landing > practically anything, no matter how fast I pressed. But I very well might be wrong.

(LOL @ all dis blue text)

 

[Strong Badam]

If you time an aerial correctly while DJing through a platform, Yoshi won't perform the aerial and instead land on the platform, cancelling all landing lag (from what I understand); any action can be performed immediately, aside from crouching, DTilt, and phasing through the platform. Normally all of this is done specifically on the three smaller platforms as seen on almost all neutral stages, but it can be done while "sliding" up next to the main stage (drop-down > DJ) from the ledge as well--if you have the right aerial DI held.

Usually this is considered a somewhat pointless move due to the margin for error (which can even cause a loss in a DJ altogether if your opponent is aware) alongside the fact that you aren't as mobile as a sliding WD, but I'm trying to find a decent situation to use it.

NOTE: Cannot be performed on Battlefield whatsoever, but is also made easier on Yoshi's Story.

this platform cancel results in 4 frames of landlag.

 

[Blu]

this platform cancel results in 4 frames of landlag.

I apologize for the redundancy, but could you possibly give me a frame-by-frame comparison?

As in...
(1) how low below the platform you have to be for it to actually execute correctly,
(2) the fastest frame totals of both examples,
(3) how this is even possible!, and
(4) the window sizes you have for inputting the different actions.

I'll understand if you don't get to this right away, but I really need to know if it's worth investing time into before I bother with it. (It'd be pretty cool to add another relevant ledge option to the metagame, even if just for one character.)

=

Thanks! =]

 

[DRGN]

Not sure really what he was trying to say, but you can't use B moves (or grabs) on IASA moves. Like with Marth, his dtilt can be interrupted to cut almost half the lag, but you can't dtilt -> counter for example. You have to jump, walk, dash, or do an A attack.

Oh, so the remark SDM made on B moves on IASA frames was wrong? He notes, "You can interrupt with B moves on the ground only." Maybe it's only some? I didn't think about the dtilt example. That seems right. Though it also just kind of seems awkward to think about dtilting, then quickly letting go of down so you can press it down again for the down b (though it could also just sound awkward to me because it's not possible, lol). Oh, and what about standing? Do you know if you can use that (the act of going from crouching to standing) to interrupt with on IASA frames?

SAF and IASA only differ if there is no IASA on a move and it has to go through the total animation before you can act.
ugh i'll get around to the other **** eventually

So there's no difference in the list of actions that those frames allow?

Basically it's just a more "all encompassing" term (to allow you to describe the duration of any move)?

 

[Strong Badam]

If there's no IASA, then SAF has more actions that can follow. You can't airdodge out of IASA, for example.

 

[Bones0]

Oh, so the remark SDM made on B moves on IASA frames was wrong? He notes, "You can interrupt with B moves on the ground only." Maybe it's only some? I didn't think about the dtilt example. That seems right. Though it also just kind of seems awkward to think about dtilting, then quickly letting go of down so you can press it down again for the down b (though it could also just sound awkward to me because it's not possible, lol). Oh, and what about standing? Do you know if you can use that (the act of going from crouching to standing) to interrupt with on IASA frames?



So there's no difference in the list of actions that those frames allow?

Basically it's just a more "all encompassing" term (to allow you to describe the duration of any move)?

I haven't tested it; I just know for SURE that Marth can't conter out of dtilt fast. It might be an exception to the rule, but I know you can interrupt during IASA with A moves as well, so I'm not sure why he would specify either. He probably just meant to type A, not B.

There is no act of going from crouching to standing. It is just the lag of the move ending. You can walk/dash in either direction or jump, but the closest thing you could get to just uncrouching would be a WD in place after the dtilt. Not sure how many frames that cuts off. A WD in place with Marth is 14 frames, so if the IASA cuts out less than that from the dtilt, it wouldn't be worth it. If I were to hazard a guess I would say WDing in place would be faster than just waiting for dtilt to end, but this is only Marth's dtilt which, as far as I know, is by far the move with the most IASA frames.

 

[Strong Badam]

dtilt -> walk 1 frame -> stop

 

[Geenareeno]

I'll ask this again Strong Bad. Is the fastest way to start moving left to dash right for 1 frame then dash left? Or just dash left?

 

[Strong Badam]

dash left takes 2 frames. you can't dash left from a dash right until frame 4 or 5 or so. you get a moonwalk if you do what you described.

 

[standardtoaster]

NOTE: Cannot be performed on Battlefield whatsoever, but is also made easier on Yoshi's Story.

>Yoshi's story
>Yoshi's

makes sense to me

 

[Tee ay eye]

what's the frame data on meteor canceling?

more specifically, what PREVENTS you from meteor canceling?

edit: nvm

you can most definitely hold up and then just tap b when you want to meteor cancel, but if you hit up b or jump you cant meteor cancel within the next 40 frames

thats something a lot of people believe though, and i think its a reason that a lot of people are bad at meteor canceling

 

[I R MarF]

How do you calculate frames of hitstun?

 

[Strong Badam]

Knockback formula
Multiply result by 0.4
Round

KB formula hasn't been released yet cuz we don't know everything about it yet.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Just going to bump, in case others have questions and have forgotten that this exists.

 

[Varist]

framebad what is the fastest possible way to shoot falco lasers

how early can i press B for laser after inputting the fast fall so that it isn't recognized as a shine?

how many frames does it take for Falco's short hop to become FFable?

lol just realized i wrote framebad that was actually unintentional.

 

[ajp_anton]

You can laser the very next frame after a fastfall. As long as you don't hold down while pressing B, it will never be a shine.

What's interesting is that B-moves seem to somehow cancel fastfalls. Not fully, but you can fastfall again after a laser to gain more speed. Also, this happens multiple times during just a single laser.
Not sure how this compares to a non-lasered fastfall, I just noticed how some TAS'd BtT scores went down when I started multi-fastfalling my B-moves.

 

[Bones0]

I have always double FFed my SHLs...

Spoiler

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

wait double fastfalls?

what

what is going on

 

[phish-it]

You can laser the very next frame after a fastfall. As long as you don't hold down while pressing B, it will never be a shine.

What's interesting is that B-moves seem to somehow cancel fastfalls. Not fully, but you can fastfall again after a laser to gain more speed. Also, this happens multiple times during just a single laser.
Not sure how this compares to a non-lasered fastfall, I just noticed how some TAS'd BtT scores went down when I started multi-fastfalling my B-moves.

Doesn't this only apply to B moves that affect the characters gravity?

 

[ajp_anton]

Doesn't this only apply to B moves that affect the characters gravity?

Like what?
The ones I've noticed it with is Fox's and Falco's lasers, and Mario's and DrMario's fireball/pills. Maybe there are other similar ones that shoot something.

 

[phish-it]

Like what?
The ones I've noticed it with is Fox's and Falco's lasers, and Mario's and DrMario's fireball/pills. Maybe there are other similar ones that shoot something.

Fox/Falco's shine, Mario/doc's cape, Dk's side B, Samus' charge shot, Zelda's Nayru's love, Marth/Roy's counter basically any move that slows down your vertical momentum in air.

I don't think Fox/Falco's lasers and the Mario's projectiles do this but I could be wrong.

 

[ajp_anton]

Fox/Falco's shine, Mario/doc's cape, Dk's side B, Samus' charge shot, Zelda's Nayru's love, Marth/Roy's counter basically any move that slows down your vertical momentum in air.

I don't think Fox/Falco's lasers and the Mario's projectiles do this but I could be wrong.

Well, I was thinking of moves that didn't actually stop your movement. Thought you meant something else with "affect their gravity".
I don't know if they cancel the fastfall for the same reason. I mean, I don't actually think it slows you down all the way to the normal falling speed, but I'd need to actually test it to be sure.

Nevertheless, checking my inputs for my TAS scores, I think the 4 characters I mentioned can re-fastfall 1 frame after you press B, and a second re-fastfall some 20 frames later (perhaps when the projectile is actually shot).
It's a little unclear because I'm mostly just spamming lasers, or I don't actually need to fastfall immediately, but all I know is that multi-fastfalling saved some 0.3 seconds for those characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

There is no deceleration from FF on Falco or Fox's laser afaik. Magus said the same thing.

 

[ajp_anton]

Well, try to explain where those 0.3s came from when all I changed was to add fastfalls =).


edit:
Just went and tested it, just because someone like Magus is apparently saying something that can't possibly be true.

Results with Fox:
Shooting a single laser has 3 frames on which it totally cancels a fastfall. And I mean totally, there's not even a real continuous "deceleration", you immediately stop fastfalling and go to maximum slowfall speed.
These frames are 1, 4 and 14. Yes, pressing B in the air will instantly kill your fastfall, and even if you re-fastfall on frame 2, it will be canceled again on frame 4, and again on frame 14.
Multiple lasers all have their own fastfall-canceling frame(s?), but I'm too tired to check what they are. I just know they are there, because I had to fastfall constantly in my BtT run (though not on the very first frames, had to time them correctly to actually hit with the lasers).

 

[Varist]

**** yeah i asked a good question that seems to have sparked common uncertainty and the consequential need for new knowledge and research

i was afraid i would sound like a ******

i love you ajp

 

[Strong Badam]

AJP: Looks like I missed one of James' messages due to my internet sucking; what you've observed is true. it instantly changes from FF speed to max normal fall when the laser begins. Wish I was home so I could have tested this myself lol.

 

[Bones0]

What should you do to maximize the speed of SHLs? If I just laser before FFing, am I straight?

 

[ajp_anton]

If you mean with Falco, just laser on the first frame to shorten the jump some more, and fastfall asap. Not sure what Falco's ff-cancel frames are, but they don't seem to interfere with an optimal SH laser.

Edit: seems like his laser cancels the fastfall a little later than Fox's, so late that you've already landed before it starts to make any kind of difference. I may check this more closely later...

 

[ajp_anton]

Intentional doublepost so that new information will bump the thread:

Falco's fastfall-cancel frames are 1, 4 and 20. This has absolutely no effect on his short hop lasers for the following reasons:
- The 1 and 4 doesn't matter because you'll land too soon if you manage to fastfall before or within 4 frames after the laser.
- The 20 doesn't matter because you've already landed at this point anyway assuming you don't really suck at fastfalling asap. And even if you do, the ff-cancel will still leave you with your maximum slowfall speed, with which you'll lose at most 1 frame during that short distance.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks .

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Double fast fall is the coolest thing I've learned about all day.

edit: nvm, just learned about homemade vortex cannons

 

[Tee ay eye]

what's the frame data on DOING the gentleman?

 

[Strong Badam]

how does gentleman work

It's really gay. Something like compares the number of frames where A was held to number of total frames (hence why extra hitlag on hit makes it easier, same with delaying punch & knee). I don't know the threshold for it. Also holding A on the last hit and IASAing out doesn't count that A press.

Does it count number of frames where A was held for the first two hits or just for the third one?



I don't get what you mean by this. Mind re-wording it?

All 3, but it disregards the 3rd one if you don't let go of A until after you act out of it (i.e. IASA).

Not sure if what I just said is enough so: If you hold A for the last hit (Gentleman/knee) it does NOT count those frames as having A held, but keeps track of the total still, so holding A and IASAing out of the 3rd hit benefits you in working toward a gentleman. Lemme know if I need to elaborate further.

 

[ajp_anton]

Or just play the PAL version =).

 

[Bones0]

Are there different lag timings of gentleman based on the total frames you held A for, or is it just that once you are under a certain number of frames it cancels at the same time.

Just to give an example:

Jab 1 - Hold for 1 frame
Jab 2 - Hold for 1 frame
Jab 3 - Hold A and do something IASA

Jab 1 - Hold for 3 frames
Jab 2 - Hold for 3 frames
Jab 3 - Hold A and do something IASA

Assuming both situations will perform the gentleman, will the first cancel the third jab faster, or will they both have the same advantage after the third jab? Hopefully that all made sense...

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

How many frames of invincibility do you have on the ledge?

 

[Strong Badam]

Are there different lag timings of gentleman based on the total frames you held A for, or is it just that once you are under a certain number of frames it cancels at the same time.

Just to give an example:

Jab 1 - Hold for 1 frame
Jab 2 - Hold for 1 frame
Jab 3 - Hold A and do something IASA

Jab 1 - Hold for 3 frames
Jab 2 - Hold for 3 frames
Jab 3 - Hold A and do something IASA

Assuming both situations will perform the gentleman, will the first cancel the third jab faster, or will they both have the same advantage after the third jab? Hopefully that all made sense...

Same advantage. Waiting longer doesn't give you less lag out of gentleman.

How many frames of invincibility do you have on the ledge?

29 frames of actionable invincibility upon grabbing the ledge. Been answered before in this thread.

 

[Bones0]

Does that 28 include the 8 frames before you can let go?

 

[Strong Badam]

I said actionable, did I not? It's 37 - 8 = 29 (not 28, sorry) for not Link, 33 - 4 = 29 for Link.