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Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

Discussion in 'Melee Discussion' started by Strong Bad, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. Kadano

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    http://smashboards.com/posts/2987122

    Tl;dr: Yes, aerials increase horizontal recovery for Jigglypuff and Kirby.
     
    Melee Mewtwo likes this.
  2. dude it's raining

    dude it's raining
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    edit: never mind
     
    #882 dude it's raining, May 13, 2015
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
  3. MooseEatsBear

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    Has anyone ever seen something like this before?

    https://youtu.be/6cKXSYTtqkY

    From my guess, it was a Phantom hit that occurs on the same frame the shield would break, and sort of canceled the shield break?
     
  4. kingPiano

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    For Kirby even his Bair gives him more forward momentum (same as his Fair), here's an old vid I remember seeing on the Kirby forums. Not sure why anyone would think it's bulls**t.


    .
     
    #884 kingPiano, May 14, 2015
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  5. bonfire10

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    Recently discovered this board and wanted to post something I found a few days ago regarding the amount of damage sheik's needles do. Just wanted to know if this was well known data or if I'm the first to explain it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o2KmpSS7cA
     
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  6. tm

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    Interesting. I always assumed that staleness was factored in when a hitbox connected, not when it comes out. Nice vid
     
  7. Melee Mewtwo

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    Is there a number of times in edgeguard situations where I'm unsure if using dtilt is actually my best option or not. I'd really like to know who can sweetspot around it with what.

    So, does anybody know what recovery options (like Falco double jump, Falcon UpB, Fox Illusion, etc) do not have even a single frame where they are vulnerable to Marth's dtilt assuming they have the ideal spacing? To keep my question less broad, the characters I'm most interested in knowing for are Fox, Falco, Falcon, (those three especially) Marth, Sheik, Peach, Samus, Puff as well as Ices, ganon, and Pikachu if you have the time.

    I've seen a few things regarding these things by @Kadano but I'm unsure how extensive the research was done on that front or if anybody else has found stuff on their own.
     
    #887 Melee Mewtwo, May 18, 2015
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
  8. Kadano

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    Are you talking about Mewtwo’s dtilt?
     
  9. Melee Mewtwo

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    No, I meant Marth. Sorry, I should have made that more clear.
     
    #889 Melee Mewtwo, May 19, 2015
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  10. Kadano

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    Falco double jump can be dtilted, but you need to space it correctly horizontally. I’ve written a post on it but I forgot to index it and can’t find it right now.
    Falcon & Ganon up-B can be dtilted easily
    Fox’ and Falco’s side-B can’t be dtilted if they are sweetspotted: http://smashboards.com/posts/16027996
    Peach’s up-B can always be fsmashed. I didn’t test dtilt, which doesn’t reach quite that far.
     
    #890 Kadano, May 19, 2015
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
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  11. Melee Mewtwo

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    Thanks, I had seen the side-b and Falco double jump posts but not the others. I actually have a question about the side-b post, though, now that I look at it again. In this excerpt:
    "The frame window for the first dtilt to hit him if he does not shorten is 13-15 of Fox’ Illusion.
    To hit Fox if he shortened, you need to start the second slash during any of the IASA frames 19-21 if you chose frame 15 before. For every frame you did the first dtilt earlier, this frame window increases by one at the end, so if you dtilted on frame 13 of Fox’ Illusion, the window for the second dtilt is 12-23."

    You mention the IASA frames that you need to do the second dtilt on. I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly you mean. Are those the frames after the first dtilt becomes interuptible or the frames of the dtilt animation that you have to interupt? The 12-23 in particular throws me off as I'm not sure if the 12 is a typo.

    Another question I wanted to ask is related to fastfaller double jumps. I remember reading someplace that Falco's double jump animation is kinda special and that it was special in that it made him more vulnerable to dtilt or something like that. I'm not quite sure on the details, nor if my memory is imagining things I never actually read. Do you happen to know off the top of your if this is true or not? (and therefore Fox/Falcon can avoid dtilt with a double jump sweetspot)

    Thanks again for the information.
     
    #891 Melee Mewtwo, May 19, 2015
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  12. Bones0

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    From what I remember of the convo, Fox can DJ sweetspot the ledge fairly easily. Falco has to be frame perfect and space his DJ horizontally relative to Marth's distance from the ledge (close if he's close, far away if he's far away). In practice, dtilt is very reliable vs. Falco because almost no Falco players understand how the sweetspot in this situation works, let alone are capable of getting a frame perfect input. I don't think his DJ animation is special or anything, his ledgegrab box is just lower relative to his hurtbox so his body is closer to going above the stage when he sweetspots than say Falcon who can grab the ledge with his whole hurtbox well beneath the ledge.

    Found @Kadano 's posts on DJ/side-B sweetspots:
    http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-312#post-15459606
    http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16035662
     
    #892 Bones0, May 19, 2015
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
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  13. Bones0

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    Anyone know how a phantom pummel might happen?

     
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  14. Dolla Pills

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    As Falco do you have time to do anything else after a full hop rising dair if done ASAP?
     
  15. kingPiano

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    Falco FH air time: 51
    Falco Dair SAF: 50

    1 frame to rule them all
     
    standardtoaster and tm like this.
  16. Stratocaster

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    Does anyoe know the precise KO condition off the top? What I've found seems to this:

    Pass the following blastzone heights with a vertical velocity of 1.00 or greater:
    YS - 168
    PS - 180
    FD - 188
    BF - 200
    FoD - 202
    DL - 205

    I have put together a spreadsheet which can predict whether a hit will KO off the top depending on the hit, stage, DI, character, etc. It can track the velocity and location to within 0.01%, but my KO conditions seem off by about <1%. The blastzone heights I got from testing with Magus' mod. I think it might be that I need more precise blastzone heights. Anyone able to find that info in the code? Have any other ideas as to where I might be going wrong with the KO condition?

    @Kadano
    @Magus420
    @schmooblidon
    @achilles1515

    Thanks!
     
  17. Achilles1515

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  18. Bones0

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    If you dair on the first frame after jumpsquat, you are only airborne for 49 frames and it's a 1-frame window. If you dair on the second possible frame, you're airborne for the full 51 frames, but you wasted a frame after jumpsquat so it's a 2-frame window.
     
  19. Vestboy_Myst

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    I have a question about optimizing vertical acceleration, specifically with Peach and other DJC characters. I think that this question will hold for those with regular jumps as well. Sorry if I explain it poorly, let me know if I should clarify it further.

    We know if Peach wants to get up to a certain height as fast as possible, she has to cancel her rising full hop with the second jump BEFORE it reaches its apex. At some point the vertical acceleration of her first jump decreases to some low enough non-zero value at which it time is best to input the second jump. This keeps her from wasting time in the 'slower' rising state and get the the DJ 'dip' over with, so that she can resume the upward trajectory with a renewed upward acceleration.

    Lets say we're in a Sheik edgeguard situation with Peach on FD. I hold ledge, Sheik up+b's to the stage, I get up and down tilt. Sheik is sent upward with considerable stun (assume no DI). Now the goal is for Peach to get up to Sheik as fast as possible and reverse nair (or uair depending on %), usually at the zenith of Sheik's arc.

    There is certaintly a 'feel' to the timing, but I was curious if there were specific jump input frame intervals for each character that would make them reach the a certain height as quickly as possible. This interval would change with the specific height and if there was any horizontal component of course. Maybe as a general rule of thumb we can do stage level to top platform of battlefield, or the highest possible point reachable in X frames for each character

    Another character I can think of that uses a quick double jump to cover vertical distance fast is Ganon, when wanting to get onto a platform to waveland. I think this is only faster on certain stages due to platform height (can someone confirm?)
     
  20. tauKhan

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    How have you determined the 'air time' btw? If you shine on the frame you will land on, you'll get the no hitbox invisible shine. So if you count the last frame at the start of which you are airborne, then it's impossible to get hitbox out either way, and if you don't, then it's 1 frame window to get hitbox with the 2nd frame dair.

    Edit: Forgot that shine immediately changes your speed, so this probably depends on the position of the falco on the last aerial frame.
     
    #900 tauKhan, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  21. schmooblidon

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    Yeah you could calculate this quite easily with any character without special doublejumps. It becomes more difficult, but far from impossible, to calculate this for Peach and other special dj-ers. This is because they have set velocities on each frame of their doublejump, and when you perform an aerial it takes the velocity of the dj frame before you aerial and then subtracts fallspeed from that point onwards.

    I can't think of an equation that will simply give you the correct answer (but maths is a huge subject, there probably is a way im forgetting). But that's not that much of a problem because we have computers, and calculating something 50 times and finding the lowest number will take no time at all.

    I general idea would be:

    v = fullhop velocity
    f = fallspeed
    d = dj velocity
    t = total distance

    Sum[ v - nf , { n, 0, x } ] + Sum[ d - nf , { n, 0, y } ] >= t

    Have the computer try like 50 or so pairs of x and y, then sort through all the results for the lowest x value.

    Doing this for special DJers will be like

    dn = dj frame n velocity

    Sum[ v - nf , { n, 0, x } ] + Sum[ dn , { n, 1, y } ] >= t

    and you would have to write down all the velocities on each frame to feed the equation. This doesnt take into account how the velocity changes when you aerial, but wouldn't be too hard to do, you would just need to specify for how many frames you want that velocity to be calculated.

    edit: at first i didnt think this would be that useful, as good players just have a feel for it, but it would be kinda cool if it was displayed on a visual graph with multiple total distances, creating a nice gradient. Im thinking like a screenshot of whatever character on whatever stage, with a rainbow line showing his fullhop height, then another rainbow line above showing all the possible heights from a doublejump, and each colour of the line matching the fullhop height with the fastest possible way to get to that dj height.

    I will definitely put this on my to-do list, but I have some other big projects I want to finish first.

    Also, it becomes more complicated when you want to waveland on a platform or something, as the ECB becomes locked to the Base Position Star for 9 frames after doublejumping (and fullhopping). That and the fact the ECB even exists, as the position calculated with above equations will be from the BPS. So you would have to know the ECB pattern of the fullhop and doublejump, which thankfully can be found easily, but it increases the workload by quite a lot.
     
    #901 schmooblidon, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
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  22. Stratocaster

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    Thanks, that is actually Strong Bad, but thanks for linking that post. Looks like I had them all fine except for FoD which is 0.5 higher than I thought. Do you know anything about the other conditions to KO off the top? My hypothesis was a vertical velocity of 1.00, but I've managed to exceed this a little.
    I hit 188.693 at 1.036 and survived. So perhaps the velocity cap is 1.05?
     
  23. tauKhan

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    #903 tauKhan, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  24. Stratocaster

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    Thank you! This is just what I needed to know.
     
  25. Achilles1515

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    Strong Bad posted Magus' work.
     
  26. Vestboy_Myst

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    thanks for your analysis @schmooblidon . looking forward to those images somewhere down the line. didnt even think about ECBs since i was preoccupied with aerials. maybe could do 'stage level to top plat of BF' with characters that have NIL double jumps (like link/ganon) as fast as possible with the variable jump intervals
     
    #906 Vestboy_Myst, May 24, 2015
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  27. Bones0

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    I tested and counted the frames manually in 20xx. Never landed or ran into the issue of the ghost shine, so I'd assume it's simply impossible to get it with the two specific timings I tested (immediate aerial and aerial delayed by 1 frame).
     
  28. Sycorax

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    I was bored at 4am playing around in SD Remix when I decided to recreate this scene from AriqueNuubs in debug mode. It looks really weird. How did that last hit of dair connect? Young Link was putting away his sword. I recreated the combo with hitboxes on and noticed two weird things. 1) YL gets a hitbox at that last part when he is putting away his sword, and 2) The hitbox on the dair disappears when it connects then reappears later. The reappearance of the hitbox is why there even is a hitbox on the move at the end when there isn't supposed to be one, but that's still weird. Link's dair also does that, but I can't think of another move.

    Does anyone know why that happens? Is this just something special about their dairs? I've searched for explanations on the boards, but they've all been wrong.
     
    #908 Sycorax, May 31, 2015
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  29. schmooblidon

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    Y.Link's Dair lasts 89 frames (can be interrupted on frame 80+). Without hitting anything, there is a hitbox from frames 13 to 64.

    When the hitbox connects, it disappears, and then reappears 30 frames later. This will also happen beyond frame 64, say you hit on frame 59, there will be a hitbox on frame 89, as long as you dont interrupt the dair beforehand.

    There are a couple little things to note with this, when the hitbox reappears before frame 65, it will disappear on frame 65. So if you connect a dair on frame 34, it reappears on frame 64, but disappears on 65. But if you connect a dair on frame 35-64, it will reappear and stay there until you connect it, you interrupt the move on frame 80+, or on frame 90 when the move is over.

    When you connect a hit on frame 61+, you will revert back to frame 60 (this is why his sword comes out again instantly). Presumably this is to spoil your fun, and have the maximum amount of time where you cant infinitely dair, so that you still suffer some end lag. But it's not too bad I guess, cos that combo happened.

    I'm gunna guess Link is the same, but I will check quickly and edit if he is different.

    Thanks for bringing this up, I didn't know this about dair it's very interesting. Pretty cool how you can also get multiple fire meteors with this.

    Forgot to mention that the 2nd and 3rd hits have reduced damage and knockback, but that is pretty obvious. It almost seems like they want you to do 3 hits, either that or they just didnt want 2 high percents hits too fast, maybe both.

    and Link is the same

    ugh just read that reddit thread linked in the comments, just people guessing and getting upvotes -_-
     
    #909 schmooblidon, May 31, 2015
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  30. Stratocaster

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    Does anybody know what the actual in-game conditions must be for a reverse hit? It seems to work most of the time if you have the hitbox out and then move the hitbox into them from the wrong direction (like reverse Marth fair by moving backwards into them after the hitbox is out. I think I can Falcon knee though by just hitting with the back of the hitbox. For the life of me, I cannot get a reverse Sheik SS Bair (even in TAS) to reverse. As in, Sheik up tilts and they DI away. Sheik then does a running shorthop and hits with the back of her foot where the strong hit is but sends them towards her face. This seems impossible, but I can't rationalize why it can't be done.

    @tauKhan (best guess as to who would know)
     
  31. kingPiano

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    I always thought all that mattered is that they are in or get hit by the back half of the hitboxes center. So if you're facing right they have to be hit at least half left of the hitbox(es) center and vice versa.
     
    #911 kingPiano, Jun 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  32. tauKhan

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    @Stratocaster

    The direction of the kb is determined from the relative positions of the 'central bones' (This is a term used by Strong bad in a post I originally learned this from) of the attacker and victim. So if the attackers center is to the left of the victims center, the victim launches at the angle of the kb (0° being line to straight right, and rotating counter clockwise like usual from there), and if the attacker is on the right side of victim, the kb angle is mirrored by y-axis.

    Shield kb direction is determined the same way, except the angle of the kb is always taken as 0°

    I guess the center of the character is in the vertical line going through the middle of the ECB, but I have to ask @Kadano about that.
     
    #912 tauKhan, Jun 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  33. Stride

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    According to standardtoaster it's the TopN bone:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2yhhot/how_do_reverse_hitboxes_work/cp9o83k
     
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  34. Stratocaster

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  35. Bones0

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    tm likes this.
  36. Kadano

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    Yeah, just set the mode to develop and press R+↓ on the d-pad a few times. TopN is the same as “BPS” in my introduction video (back then I didn’t know about the TopN term).
     
  37. Vestboy_Myst

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    A while back we figured out that fox uthrow changes initial launch position based on player port, has this been confirmed for other character uthrows? specifically looking for how the %ranges for peach cg on fox/falco/cf change with the different ports

    in addition, I have been playing under the assumption that against fox at 0% peach can guarantee uthrow>dsmash if dsmash is input on the first available frame, but now that i'm messing around with ports (p1fox v p4peach and visa versa) i'm unsure if this holds in every case
     
    #917 Vestboy_Myst, Jun 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  38. Stratocaster

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    In this thread I detail exactly what the mechanic is your refering to:
    http://smashboards.com/threads/how-port-priority-affects-throws.393128/

    TL;DR: There is effectively 1 more frame of hitstun if the thrower has the lower port. This doesn't effect the release point.

    There is no difference in the up throw - down smash scenario because Fox has the same start point and will hit the ground at the same point. He has too much hitstun to be able to not tech and jump out either way I believe.

    You can check yourself on the 20XX hack pack by setting the mode to "DEVELOP", then in game, press start to freeze the game and advance the frames pressing Z. You can confirm for sure if something is technically guaranteed. Then use P2 CPU to confirm it is practical to do consistantly.
     
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  39. Vestboy_Myst

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    i still havent updated 20xx in a while which is why i couldnt confirm, i'll have to stop being lazy and do that soon. thanks for clarifying my mistake about the release point, ill be sure to remember that from now on.

    having an extra frame of stun may still impact the uthrow>dsmash scenario. maybe for some port configurations you can sneak in 1 pummel before uthrow. i'll try to get around to testing it myself
     
    #919 Vestboy_Myst, Jun 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  40. Gentlefox

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    Isn't that true because PAL is 50fps? Unless they use a 60hz TV and booted Melee in 60FPS mode, wouldn't it mean you have 1/6th more time to SDI?
     

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