Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[tauKhan]

Display mode doesn't effect the rate the game runs(60fps), and NO ONE runs melee in the 50fps mode anyway. Trust me, it's actually horrific to watch the 50fps, and players will reset immediately if that's accidentally on.

 

[Kadano]

Isn't that true because PAL is 50fps? Unless they use a 60hz TV and booted Melee in 60FPS mode, wouldn't it mean you have 1/6th more time to SDI?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/PAL50

Edit: Didn’t see tauKhan’s reply before, he said the important things already.

 

[Dolla Pills]

So something weird happened to me today while playing that I didn't know could happen.

I was Fox and I naired a young link. I got the phantom hit while we were both in midair and then I continued my trajectory forward. Then the young link jumped back immediately into where I was nairing and then actually got hit by the same nair that he was just phantom hit by.

Is this possible or did something else happen?

 

[Kadano]

So something weird happened to me today while playing that I didn't know could happen.

I was Fox and I naired a young link. I got the phantom hit while we were both in midair and then I continued my trajectory forward. Then the young link jumped back immediately into where I was nairing and then actually got hit by the same nair that he was just phantom hit by.

Is this possible or did something else happen?

That’s normal, phantom hits can hit twice (one phantom and one proper hit).

 

[CAUP]

Two questions

1) How many frames of shield stun does a dropped turnip give? If it bounces in shield a few times is the shield stun multiplied?

2) In the game code are there values for every move a character can use including rolls, tech animations and such? We're would such data be found?

 

[Sycorax]

Two questions

1) How many frames of shield stun does a dropped turnip give? If it bounces in shield a few times is the shield stun multiplied?

2) In the game code are there values for every move a character can use including rolls, tech animations and such? We're would such data be found?

1) Shield stun depends on the damage of the hitbox. Dropped turnips do different amounts damange depending on how far they fall. On the Peach Boards, Quetzalcoatl has made a thread about this. You can calculate shieldstun using KirbyKaze's shieldstun calculator thread or strongbad's knockback, etc. spreadsheet found in Kadano's thread.

2) Yes. Strongbad (and some other people help I think) made a program called Master Hand that displays the info in character .dat files in a readable way. It can be hard to interpret because there is info missing and the program uses in game names for stuff, e.g. rolls are called EscapeF/B. IMO it's easier to just turn on develop mode and count frames.

You can find links to all the things I mentioned in my Melee Library linked in my signature.

 

[orvs]

if falco or fox goes for a shine-->JC grab on sheik is it possible for sheik to wavedash OOS to avoid it?

 

[Stride]

if falco or fox goes for a shine-->JC grab on sheik is it possible for sheik to wavedash OOS to avoid it?

No.

 

[Bones0]

if falco or fox goes for a shine-->JC grab on sheik is it possible for sheik to wavedash OOS to avoid it?

I think she can because she crouches extremely low during her jumpsquat. I remember playing with M2K and he was trying to demonstrate how this happened with nair OoS, but it was pre-20xx so we couldn't ensure both players' inputs were frame perfect. It should be simple to test in debug, so I'll check this when I get a chance if no one else gets to it first.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[orvs]

No.

I think she can because she crouches extremely low during her jumpsquat. I remember playing with M2K and he was trying to demonstrate how this happened with nair OoS, but it was pre-20xx so we couldn't ensure both players' inputs were frame perfect. It should be simple to test in debug, so I'll check this when I get a chance if no one else gets to it first.

thanks

I just checked in debug and Fox doesn't have any problems grabbing sheik's jumpsquat. However, if he's not close enough to you, you can get enough frames of backwards movement from your wavedash to avoid the grab. Her jumpsquat and airdodge landing lag animation are low enough to avoid a shine -> nair from Fox, though.

thanks. similarly i also just found a gif of sheik being able to wd oos safely when falco goes for shine-->nair.

 

[Stride]

I think she can because she crouches extremely low during her jumpsquat. I remember playing with M2K and he was trying to demonstrate how this happened with nair OoS, but it was pre-20xx so we couldn't ensure both players' inputs were frame perfect. It should be simple to test in debug, so I'll check this when I get a chance if no one else gets to it first.

That's a interesting point. I don't think it's possible though.

Unfortunately I can't post pictures, but if you enable hitbubbles for yourself then you can clearly see that Sheik shouldn't be able to duck Fox's grab during either her crouch or jumpsquat; the bottom of Fox's grab bubble is at the middle of his front knee, while most of Sheik's body is significantly higher up than that.

Sheik is slightly higher up during her jumpsquat than she is during her crouch, so if she can't duck grabs during crouch then she definitely won't be able to during jumpsquat.

Do you know if Sheik can duck Fox's grab in practice despite not looking like it's possible just from looking at the hitbubbles (any video evidence)? It's pretty clearly visible just how low to the ground Fox's grab is compared to Sheik, but there might be some edge case where it's possible that isn't immediately apparent.

From point blank with frame-perfect inputs from both sides, Sheik still gets grabbed if she wavedashes back; I didn't test anything else. If the Fox was slow on his inputs or spaced far away then it would be possible for the Sheik to move out of the horizontal range of the grab.

 

[Bones0]

I was talking specifically about Falco, so idk if his grab bubble is any higher than Fox's, but it might also just be dependent on the horizontal spacing. I won't be able to say for sure until I test it myself.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Rachman]

When I test it, I can dash the opposite direction im facing and be in the turnaround state for ~1 frame but when i do a weak input (like to walk) it's ~12. Am I screwing up? Is there any way to speed this up? I'm trying to test the frame leniency of the dthrow -> turnaround dtilt at the ledge with Marth M2K always does but the 12 frames just seems super slow.

Edit: Since I'm already asking, what IS the frame leniency on the dthrow dtilt option select at the ledge for Marth v Fox/Falco (either one since I'm assuming they're very close if not the same) and at what %s is it essentially guaranteed?

 

[Kadano]

When I test it, I can dash the opposite direction im facing and be in the turnaround state for ~1 frame but when i do a weak input (like to walk) it's ~12. Am I screwing up? Is there any way to speed this up? I'm trying to test the frame leniency of the dthrow -> turnaround dtilt at the ledge with Marth M2K always does but the 12 frames just seems super slow.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Turn
Tilt turn turns around on frame 1 as long as you cancel it with an attack. So tilt turn to dtilt does turn you around after one frame.
To walk backwards, you indeed need to wait until all 11 frames of the turn animation have passed. The only way around this is to do pivot dtilts, since you can dash backwards after frame 1 of turn.

Edit: Since I'm already asking, what IS the frame leniency on the dthrow dtilt option select at the ledge for Marth v Fox/Falco (either one since I'm assuming they're very close if not the same) and at what %s is it essentially guaranteed?

It’s not guaranteed at all, unless the Fox / Falco neglects the proper response to beat it. See http://smashboards.com/posts/18643517

 

[Sycorax]

What do the L and R letters next to the animation state in debug mode mean? What causes them to change?

Also, is it already known that the invisible ceiling glitch is caused by taking a hit while the victim has Attacker Shield KB Velocity?

 

[Bones0]

What do the L and R letters next to the animation state in debug mode mean? What causes them to change?

Also, is it already known that the invisible ceiling glitch is caused by taking a hit while the victim has Attacker Shield KB Velocity?

It's kinda of known among tech junkies that ICG has to do with shield pushback, but I'm not sure it's extensively documented anywhere.

 

[CrippleCow]

Does Marth have any attacks that have enough shieldstun to guarantee a grab/any other attack afterwards?

Example: shffl nair-grab or late fair into dtilt or something.

 

[Bones0]

Does Marth have any attacks that have enough shieldstun to guarantee a grab/any other attack afterwards?

Example: shffl nair-grab or late fair into dtilt or something.

No. There aren't many aerials in the game that can ever link into grab. Even Peach's FC aerial to grab can be spotdodged. Not sure about Falcon's knee to grab. You can use this to figure out how much frame advantage/disadvantage you have:

http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

 

[CrippleCow]

No. There aren't many aerials in the game that can ever link into grab. Even Peach's FC aerial to grab can be spotdodged. Not sure about Falcon's knee to grab. You can use this to figure out how much frame advantage/disadvantage you have:

http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

Yes I had heard that late knee-grab works so I was wondering if Marth had something similar.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Stratocaster]

Late knee grab isn't a guaranteed link. His frame advantage is +1 at best (not stale, perfect timing). Marth's latest Fair should be 0 or -1 on shield depending on if you hit with the tip or not. I'm pretty sure that is the safest thing you can hit shield with like that. It's enough to dash away or behind to avoid a shield grab (in general) but not enough to guarantee a grab. Even shine grab isn't guaranteed...

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Stratocaster]

There is no general time, but in your case I calculated 20 should be the ideal frame to reach max height on frame 37. I can confirm that number later. If you're not using Magus's mod, that could be really helpful (just try different timings and look at the Top-N value on the desired frame). If it's not 20, it should be close to that.

Jigglypuff's hitbox data for low and high angled ftilt are just pointers to the forward angled up tilt which has confused Masterhand for some reason. She has the exact same hitbox properties on all the angles. No Luigi set knockback shenanigans.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Stratocaster]

In order to figure out the time to double jump to reach a point fastest, you have to consider the full physics of jumping. It's not as simple as you are describing it.

Full hop has an initial velocity which decreases according to the character's gravity. Then a double jump overrides that velocity with a new initial velocity. If you want to get to a certain height fastest than you want the fastest average velocity over the travel period. For example, Fox's double jump initial velocity is greater than his full hop initial velocity. So the double jump speed will be faster immediately, but the fastest way to get to a high platform is not to double jump immediately. The sooner you double jump, the sooner the your renewed velocity begins to decay and they less you take advantage of the full hop's initial velocity.

All that to say, even if the distance gained by the double jump per frame (initial velocity) is greater than your current vertical distance per frame, which frame to use depends on exactly what distance you are trying to reach.

To solve this otherwise, you need to know the full hop and double jump initial velocities and use an iterative method.

To complicate matters, I don't know Jigglypuff's double jump initial velocity because it is a non-standard jump and not in the usual place, but I think it is the same as his full hop now based on the fact that the earliest FF is the same. (http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Jigglypuff_frames_11.6.05.txt)

I assumed this and did a calculation to determine the ideal frame is 20 (19 should be the same).

Initial velocities are mostly here except for the double jumps of Puff / Kirby / Yoshi / Mewtwo / Peach / Ness:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...authkey=CN7nm-UD&hl=en&authkey=CN7nm-UD#gid=0

 

[Stratocaster]

@Melee Mewtwo

This is as close as I could get at 105%, it's not a true combo.

Green shows Fox's hitstun. It will hit 0 the next frame and he can shine out. I had to adjust the scenario you gave because you did not account for Puff's jump squat (or I just assumed incorrectly what you meant). The actual goal is to get Puff as high as possible on frame 31 because you have to remove 5 frames for jump squat and 1 frame because otherwise you tie. Anyway, in this case, the ideal frame is the 16th frame. Puff is one frame short from this being guaranteed, but that is still the most ideal jump timing.

Also my assumption that puff's first double jump initial velocity was 1.6 was wrong. It was 1.586, just for the record.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[The Phenom]

G&w super jump 00:38:19

@ Kadano @ Stratocaster @ schmooblidon

http://www.twitch.tv/mikehazegaming/v/7216884

Mike said he'll highlight it to youtube, sorry for twitch link guys^^

 

[Stratocaster]

G&w super jump 00:38:19

@ Kadano @ Stratocaster @ schmooblidon

http://www.twitch.tv/mikehazegaming/v/7216884

Mike said he'll highlight it to youtube, sorry for twitch link guys^^

Momentum from the roll was canceled by G&W being on the platform and then the platform moving in such a way he was no longer on the platform. Here's a similar recreation. His looks a little different, but I'm confident it's the same principle.

http://gfycat.com/WarpedAggressiveHamster

It's frame perfect and likely not character specific.

 

[Stride]

Can anyone explain why when doing a Vududash with Ice Climbers, the Ice Shot animation gets interrupted when you fall off the edge? Because the animation gets interrupted, the ice bock doesn't come out unless it's already been fired by the time you leave the stage/platform.

At first I assumed it was due to the grounded and aerial version of the animation being different, but that's also the case for Luigi (and every character as far as I know) and his animation transitions seamlessly.

Also, I didn't know until just now that using the Z button to frame advance in develop mode will be interpreted as a normal input by Nana (making her grab), and the "normal C-stick functionality in develop mode" .dol mod doesn't apply to Nana. Is it just something else about my setup that's causing that to happen, or is it the case for everyone?

 

[schmooblidon]

G&w super jump 00:38:19

@ Kadano @ Stratocaster @ schmooblidon

http://www.twitch.tv/mikehazegaming/v/7216884

Mike said he'll highlight it to youtube, sorry for twitch link guys^^

Yo that was cool, gunna look at this properly tomorrow. :o

 

[Rachman]

1.) How does Z-powershielding interact with things such as Marth dash forward/back? As in, does z-powershielding double the window or increase it by a flat 2 or what?
2.) Do any other relevant characters have windows > or < 2 on their powershield out of a dash forward/back? If so, who and what are the windows?
3.) How much dmg does each hit of Falco fair do? How does staling interact with mulihit moves/effect the damage falco fair deals? If I only hit with the 2nd hit does it then do more dmg than if I hit with the 1st and 2nd because the 1st would have already staled it some etc

 

[Stratocaster]

1.) How does Z-powershielding interact with things such as Marth dash forward/back? As in, does z-powershielding double the window or increase it by a flat 2 or what?
2.) Do any other relevant characters have windows > or < 2 on their powershield out of a dash forward/back? If so, who and what are the windows?
3.) How much dmg does each hit of Falco fair do? How does staling interact with mulihit moves/effect the damage falco fair deals? If I only hit with the 2nd hit does it then do more dmg than if I hit with the 1st and 2nd because the 1st would have already staled it some etc

If you haven't read Kadano's overview of Z-powershielding: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-17#post-18512581

Simplifying it into a flat # of frames is drastically oversimplifying how the technique works I think. Characters have different body sizes and shield sizes, and Falco's lasers can have a variety of heights and spacings, so there is no # of frames it increases the window across the board. It would be a pretty big effort to record this. In general in my experince, it seems to increase the window at least 1 frame, but in the right scenario it can be a lot. Shooting a laser above a crouching Puff is a huge window for a Z-PS. I think as a blanket statement, it helps everyone, but the extend depends on the situation a lot.

Falco's hits do 9, 8, 7, 5, 3 fresh. They do stale each other though, so yes the 2nd hit does more damage by itself if you didn't hit with the one before. However, The 9 extra damage before will mean the 7.28 (the staled damage of the second hit) will actually hit harder because the opponent has more damage before it hits and does more total damage obviously.

 

[Rachman]

So basically times where the hurtbox is lowered beneath the projectile or moves it behind the small powershield bubble thing increases the powershield window? Is that why puff crouch/marth dash does it?

 

[tauKhan]

@ Rachman Adding to what @ Stratocaster said about staling: Each move you hit with will occupy only 1 staling slot. So even if you hit all 5 hits of the fair, it only counts as 1 move in the staling counter. However the staling counter will update as soon as you hit with the fair first time, so the consecutive hits will be staled more.

 

[Bones0]

@ Rachman Adding to what @ Stratocaster said about staling: Each move you hit with will occupy only 1 staling slot. So even if you hit all 5 hits of the fair, it only counts as 1 move in the staling counter. However the staling counter will update as soon as you hit with the fair first time, so the consecutive hits will be staled more.

Is this not the case with Sheik's needles? I recall seeing a video that demonstrated a significant difference in their damage based on how far you were from the opponent due to staling. That would only be possible if each needle was treated as a separate move.

 

[tauKhan]

Is this not the case with Sheik's needles? I recall seeing a video that demonstrated a significant difference in their damage based on how far you were from the opponent due to staling. That would only be possible if each needle was treated as a separate move.

Good point. I'm not exactly sure how it works for needles and projectiles, but I think they're treated differently.

 

[Stratocaster]

Yeah needles are treated as separate moves, not multi-hit.

 

[The Phenom]

Momentum from the roll was canceled by G&W being on the platform and then the platform moving in such a way he was no longer on the platform. Here's a similar recreation. His looks a little different, but I'm confident it's the same principle.

http://gfycat.com/WarpedAggressiveHamster

It's frame perfect and likely not character specific.

Sounds accurate what your telling me, & also I've done shorter versions with various characters. Gifycat will come in handy to look at if I want to learn it! -Thanks Strat

Yo that was cool, gunna look at this properly tomorrow. :o

I actually got this recorded in a set yesterday LOL!