Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[pants name guy]

Can I get frame data for invincibility on wall jumps? I play young link btw if it's character-dependent

 

[Kadano]

Can I get frame data for invincibility on wall jumps? I play young link btw if it's character-dependent

5 frames of startup, then 9 frames of actionable intangibility. Startup is intangible too.

Or, differently put: 14 frames of intangibility, IASA on frame 6.

 

[orvs]

sorry if this was asked before. it's stuff about dash turns that i want to make sure i have right. so if I am facing right with a character, and then I make the input to dash left, turning around takes only one frame and then I can cancel the the dash with a jump on the next frame right?

Frame 0: Facing right
Frame 1: Dash (Left)
Frame 2: Jump squat 1

Just making sure this is how it goes.
also after this sequence, does the character obtain all the momentum from the dash when they jump?


lastly, does anyone know how many frames a PC drop is for fox and falco? i mean from the moment you are in the air until cliffcatch.

 

[Kadano]

sorry if this was asked before. it's stuff about dash turns that i want to make sure i have right. so if I am facing right with a character, and then I make the input to dash left, turning around takes only one frame and then I can cancel the the dash with a jump on the next frame right?

Frame 0: Facing right
Frame 1: Dash (Left)
Frame 2: Jump squat 1

Just making sure this is how it goes.
also after this sequence, does the character obtain all the momentum from the dash when they jump?

I compiled my knowledge on the turn animation into this article: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Turn

In your frame list, you would not get any forward momentum and you’d only be facing left afterwards if you had done a smash turn. Going from facing left to dashing right always requires at least one frame of Turn in-between. Thus, frame 1 in your list would be Turn, not Dash.

lastly, does anyone know how many frames a PC drop is for fox and falco? i mean from the moment you are in the air until cliffcatch.

Falco grabs the ledge on frame 11 (10 frames spent in falling animation). If he fast-falls as soon as possible, he grabs on frame 5 (4 frames falling).
Fox grabs the ledge on frame 10 (9 frames spent in falling animation). If he fast-falls as soon as possible, he grabs on frame 5 (4 frames falling).

 

[orvs]

I compiled my knowledge on the turn animation into this article: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Turn

In your frame list, you would not get any forward momentum and you’d only be facing left afterwards if you had done a smash turn. Going from facing left to dashing right always requires at least one frame of Turn in-between. Thus, frame 1 in your list would be Turn, not Dash.


Falco grabs the ledge on frame 11 (10 frames spent in falling animation). If he fast-falls as soon as possible, he grabs on frame 5 (4 frames falling).
Fox grabs the ledge on frame 10 (9 frames spent in falling animation). If he fast-falls as soon as possible, he grabs on frame 5 (4 frames falling).

Thank you!!

 

[Zappdos]

Would anyone be able to illustrate (or link if it already exists) what the hitboxes of a grounded uncharged Rollout from Jiggs looks like from startup to cool down if you try to turn multiple times during the attack? Also, does the first hitbox come out on frame 16?

Thank youuu :33

 

[jazz_1993]

I've been experimenting with Javi's claw grip, which requires:
L+A for standing grab
X+L+A for JC grab
etc.
I would like to know what the minimum delay in frames is to perform these grabs compared to Z and X+Z. Can L and A be pressed on the same frame for a grab?
I feel like losing even one or two frames could be significant in the long term so I'm thinking about training my middle finger to reach up to z (about same distance as x to b), or learning a new grip entirely. If it wasn't for this I really like the grip...


Edit:
I tried holding L and A and then unpausing, which initiates a grab with no visible shield. In fact it feels like you can press A slightly before L. I imagine it's only as fast as Z if you get both inputs in on the same frame?

 

[dude it's raining]

I've been experimenting with Javi's claw grip, which requires:
L+A for standing grab
X+L+A for JC grab
etc.
I would like to know what the minimum delay in frames is to perform these grabs compared to Z and X+Z. Can L and A be pressed on the same frame for a grab?
I feel like losing even one or two frames could be significant in the long term so I'm thinking about training my middle finger to reach up to z (about same distance as x to b), or learning a new grip entirely. If it wasn't for this I really like the grip...


Edit:
I tried holding L and A and then unpausing, which initiates a grab with no visible shield. In fact it feels like you can press A slightly before L. I imagine it's only as fast as Z if you get both inputs in on the same frame?

IIRC it's exactly the same, I don't think there is a delay b/c it gives the game the exact same message. i think there might be a difference in the order in which the game reads inputs (similar to how c-stick can override control stick for certian special DIs), but I don't know if it's significant.

 

[kingPiano]

Haven't actually bothered to exhaustively test this, but how exactly do freeze frames work?

I gather it scales with the amount of damage or strength of attack. It also seems to be affected by type (electric, fire, etc), and I've noticed that Ice Climbers can take 2x as many frames each getting their own impact stall on hit.


Is there a formula or is it just preset for different attacks?



.

 

[Kadano]

Haven't actually bothered to exhaustively test this, but how exactly do freeze frames work?
I gather it scales with the amount of damage or strength of attack. It also seems to be affected by type (electric, fire, etc), and I've noticed that Ice Climbers can take 2x as many frames each getting their own impact stall on hit.
Is there a formula or is it just preset for different attacks?.

It’s called hitlag in Melee, and there’s a formula to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0

 

[kingPiano]

It’s called hitlag in Melee, and there’s a formula to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0

Ok thanks very much. I've always called it Freeze Frames or Impact Lag/Stall. I did not know the Melee term was coined hitlag, it seems so close to hitstun as a term I'd probably end up confusing the two.

 

[Kadano]

Ok thanks very much. I've always called it Freeze Frames or Impact Lag/Stall. I did not know the Melee term was coined hitlag, it seems so lose to hitstun as a term I'd probably end up confusing the two.

Well, the Japanese players call it “hitstop” instead, which I think is the better term and easier to remember, since your character (usually) stops his animation during hitstop / hitlag, while he moves according to his Damage* animation during hitstun. But freeze frames is a term I never liked, it seems to generic. For example, Marth’s counter induces “freeze frames” for the attacker as well, but I’m pretty sure it’s different from hitlag / hitstop. Actually, I got an idea how to test for this, gonna do it right now.

 

[flieskiller]

Can I do consistently a wavedash to slide from a platform, to hit the ground like I was hit? I tried to wavedash but I always went into fall animation instead of tumble (or animation that makes you hit the ground in a way that you can tech and stuff). I'd like to be able to make that when I want to.

 

[schmooblidon]

Can I do consistently a wavedash to slide from a platform, to hit the ground like I was hit? I tried to wavedash but I always went into fall animation instead of tumble (or animation that makes you hit the ground in a way that you can tech and stuff). I'd like to be able to make that when I want to.

You gotta slide off backwards while holding shield. Then you go into missfoot

Named Missfoot, it's 26 frames long. You cannot perform anything other than fastfall in this state. If you land within those 26 frames, you will just get an Impact Land. On frame 27+, you go into DamageFall (tumble) and landing while in this state will cause a knockdown (tech-able). You can however aerial, doublejump, zair or just tap a direction to cancel it.

 

[EWC]

I'm a little bit confused about the utility of z-powershielding. I was under the impression that it would serve as a complete replacement for ordinary powershielding vs projectiles, but some quick tests indicate that sometimes z-powershielding actually has a smaller window than powershielding (eg standing fox vs standing falco laser at certain distances gives a 3 frame window to powershield, but only a 2 frame window to z-powershield). Has anyone played with it enough to have a good sense of when it is most useful?

 

[schmooblidon]

That makes no sense. Z-PS is just a bigger PS, how can it have a smaller window if it is active the same amount of frames with more distance. There are a bunch of different lightshield powershields, perhaps you are performing one of the bad ones?

 

[EWC]

I am definitely doing Z-PS. The one where you buffer A and then press Z and R on the same frame.

I tested a bit more and I think I understand what is going on. When I Z-PS a frame too early the laser is connecting with the lightshield bubble before it reaches the PSS. If I just do a regular DP shield on the same frame then because lasers move so fast it has time to reach the normal PSS on the next frame or the frame afterwards.

I guess this happens because fox's PSS fills up a fairly large fraction of his shield bubble, so with a normal shield the region outside the PSS is small enough that the laser is likely to bypass it in 1 frame and then reach the PSS. If you Z-PS then it scales up both the PSS and the total bubble by the same amount, so in particular it increases the amount of "useless" shield area that the projectile has to go through before reaching the PSS, and thus increases the chance of shielding it without reflecting.

Sorry if that isn't too clear, I'm not sure about good/standard terminology for all the different types of shields. The takeaway is that this effect should be pretty rare. It depends on both the laser moving very fast and the fact that fox's PSS is very large normally.

 

[Kadano]

I am definitely doing Z-PS. The one where you buffer A and then press Z and R on the same frame.

I tested a bit more and I think I understand what is going on. When I Z-PS a frame too early the laser is connecting with the lightshield bubble before it reaches the PSS. If I just do a regular DP shield on the same frame then because lasers move so fast it has time to reach the normal PSS on the next frame or the frame afterwards.

I guess this happens because fox's PSS fills up a fairly large fraction of his shield bubble, so with a normal shield the region outside the PSS is small enough that the laser is likely to bypass it in 1 frame and then reach the PSS. If you Z-PS then it scales up both the PSS and the total bubble by the same amount, so in particular it increases the amount of "useless" shield area that the projectile has to go through before reaching the PSS, and thus increases the chance of shielding it without reflecting.

Sorry if that isn't too clear, I'm not sure about good/standard terminology for all the different types of shields. The takeaway is that this effect should be pretty rare. It depends on both the laser moving very fast and the fact that fox's PSS is very large normally.

Yes, all of this makes sense and I have observed similar things as well. It’s just due to “random” positioning. By moving slightly closer or away from the lasers, it would be the opposite and the laser would connect with the N-PS outer non-PS rim, but if you did Z-PS instead, it would be inside the PSS.
It’s kind of hard to measure this unwanted effect against the positive effects of the increased PSS size, but I still think that Z-PS is better altogether.

 

[EWC]

Yeah I've come to the same conclusion after some more testing. I found that the windowfor fox to N-PS a standing falco laser varies from 1 to 3 frames depending on the positioning, and the window for a Z-PS varies from 2 to 4 frames. There is only a small range of positions where the N-PS window exceeds the Z-PS window. Coincidentally it happens that the P1 and P2 spawn locations on FD are at the right distance to cause this, which is why I noticed it in the first place.

 

[Bones0]

If you have low shield health, that probably won't be as much of an issue.

 

[Rachman]

How does the hitstun work when you are put in nontumble hitstun in the air and immediately land on the ground? What special interactions are worth noting and how exactly do they work?

 

[tauKhan]

How does the hitstun work when you are put in nontumble hitstun in the air and immediately land on the ground? What special interactions are worth noting and how exactly do they work?

If the kb is small enough, you go into grounded hitstun for the remaining frames (Falco's pillar combos for example, since the remaining shine kb reduces the total kb after dair.) Then somewhere between that and 80 (tumble kb), a normal landing happens that cancels hitstun (land cancel, which is the main reason cc is effective). I don't know the threshold at which land cancels occurs, but it starts at quite low kb.

 

[Stratocaster]

If the kb is small enough, you go into grounded hitstun for the remaining frames (Falco's pillar combos for example, since the remaining shine kb reduces the total kb after dair.) Then somewhere between that and 80 (tumble kb), a normal landing happens that cancels hitstun (land cancel, which is the main reason cc is effective). I don't know the threshold at which land cancels occurs, but it starts at quite low kb.

The land cancel occurs at all kb below 80 except for Meteors and spikes. If what you said was true, then you could not land cancel most jabs, which you most definitely can. It's the same principle as why you cannot CC meteors or spikes. You can't land cancel them, which is the reason CC works.

 

[tauKhan]

If what you said was true, then you could not land cancel most jabs

You can't land cancel most jabs at very low% when crouching. The threshold is somewhere the amount of kb foxes jab does does to crouching fox at 20% after hit. Even at 0% a jab on noncrouching fox goes over the threshold. Even though the threshold is very low, it has some effect on the game if the players tend to crouch a lot. The biggest effect the mechanic has is that it allows falcos shine dair combos to actually work. It also means that on crouching opponents foxes weak nair actually combos into shine at low%.

And it has nothing to do with why you can't crouch cancel spikes. Spikes you can't cc because you don't get sent into air at all. However if you raw dair an aerial opponent with falco, it almost always land cancels (Like maybe bowser at 0% doesn't, but generally it does.)

 

[Jimmology]

What is an IASA frame and what does it stand for?

 

[tauKhan]

Interruptible as soon as. On iasa frames of an move you can perform other actions, which interrupts the remaining animation. For example when you do dtilt with marth, you can start another dtilt on frame 20 of the first dtilt, even though the animation is 49 frames long. Not every action is possible during IASA frames though, generally b-moves and airdodge can't be done. You can usually walk, dash, crouch, normal and smash attacks, jump, grab and turn during IASA frames of normal attack.

 

[tm]

If the kb is small enough, you go into grounded hitstun for the remaining frames (Falco's pillar combos for example, since the remaining shine kb reduces the total kb after dair.) Then somewhere between that and 80 (tumble kb), a normal landing happens that cancels hitstun (land cancel, which is the main reason cc is effective). I don't know the threshold at which land cancels occurs, but it starts at quite low kb.

You can't land cancel most jabs at very low% when crouching. The threshold is somewhere the amount of kb foxes jab does does to crouching fox at 20% after hit. Even at 0% a jab on noncrouching fox goes over the threshold. Even though the threshold is very low, it has some effect on the game if the players tend to crouch a lot. The biggest effect the mechanic has is that it allows falcos shine dair combos to actually work. It also means that on crouching opponents foxes weak nair actually combos into shine at low%.

And it has nothing to do with why you can't crouch cancel spikes. Spikes you can't cc because you don't get sent into air at all. However if you raw dair an aerial opponent with falco, it almost always land cancels (Like maybe bowser at 0% doesn't, but generally it does.)

Can you elaborate this a little more or explain it differently? I don't quite understand.

Based on your first post it sounds like
lowest KB -> grounded hitstun (laggy & non techable)
not quite that low KB -> land cancel (only 4 frames of lag after hitting ground (most characters))
80 KB and above -> tumble (this part I understand)

But I thought that grounded hitstun occurred because of KB angle (ex: falco's / marth's dair at ANY knockback prior to causing tumble)? Regardless of if they are hit raw on the ground or if they are hit from slightly above the ground into the ground. Or is it a property of spikes that disallow land canceling during hitstun?

Can you give an example of a move with such low KB that it causes grounded hitstun and isn't a spike?

 

[tauKhan]

But I thought that grounded hitstun occurred because of KB angle (ex: falco's / marth's dair at ANY knockback prior to causing tumble)? Regardless of if they are hit raw on the ground or if they are hit from slightly above the ground into the ground. Or is it a property of spikes that disallow land canceling during hitstun?

No, in air -> ground conversions only kb amount matters, and the rules are correct in your post. Falco's or Marth's dair will cause land cancel on aerial opponents, which actually happens very frequently on high level matches, in the case of falco at least. Spikes on grounded opponents before tumble kb can't be land cancelled, because they don't put the victim in the air in the first place, so the air - > ground transition doesn't happen, the victim goes straight into grounded hitstun instead.

And I can't think of any attack that has low enough bkb to not cause land cancel unless crouched, even foxes jab needs to be crouched lol. Edit: Now I remember, falco's laser can never be land cancelled.

 

[tm]

Oh ok. I didn't know you were exclusively talking about aerial to ground, since you were also talking about crouching.

So falco's pillaring shine ->dairs (say on fox at low %) only causes grounded hitstun because the momentum from the shine lowers the KB? It seems like the knockback from dair would be more than enough to cause land canceling, as these dairs are from air -> ground. But I can consistently shine -> dair fox from 0-35 ish with each dair putting him in grounded hitstun.

edit: unless I'm crazy

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah, that's exactly it. Shine does huge kb, and falco can jump out and follow up so fast that there's still large amount of kb left when the dair connects. If you watch closely, you can see that the fox moves very slowly downwards from the dair. If you delay the dair too much, land cancelling can occur though.

This is closely related to crouch cancelling, since that works by air to ground transition via asding down. And crouching reduces kb.

 

[tm]

Ok thanks for all the clarification!

 

[Bones0]

(Falco's pillar combos for example, since the remaining shine kb reduces the total kb after dair.)

Can you elaborate on this effect? I've never heard of it.

 

[tauKhan]

I mean that the kb vector of the character on the collision determines or not land cancelling happens. Since the momentum stacking works the way it does, as you surely know, the remaining shine kb is added (vector addition) to the dair kb, so the total kb is quite small, even though the dair still induces normal amount of hitstun.

I apologize if the wording confused you (Pretty sure it did)

 

[Bones0]

I mean that the kb vector of the character on the collision determines or not land cancelling happens. Since the momentum stacking works the way it does, as you surely know, the remaining shine kb is added (vector addition) to the dair kb, so the total kb is quite small, even though the dair still induces normal amount of hitstun.

I apologize if the wording confused you (Pretty sure it did)

Oh, okay. Would waiting longer after the shine before dairing help to put them in ground stun, or does the KB vector influence the dair's KB equally for the duration of shine's hitstun? Basically, I'm trying to figure out how to get people in ground stun as often as possible as well as know when it isn't possible.

 

[tauKhan]

kb decreases over time, so the more you wait after shine, the less it has impact over the dair launch speed. If you wait too long, land cancels can happen.

 

[Kadano]

Also, if you do the dair super fast after the shine (immediately jump out and start the dair), you stay within the ~10 frame window within which previous KB is ignored for the new hit, so the victim is sent at full speed. Useful when you get close to the ledge where you can dair them off the stage.

 

[Rachman]

1.) How much "frame advantage" or whatever term you wish to use does Falco laser give? Like, how much histun does it have and does it apply hitlag? (Presumably only to the person receiving the laser). I apologize if I'm unclear or wording this wrong I'm just having trouble testing this for probably silly reasons. It's probably a quick calculation so if anybody can tell me the exact formula that would be great. Also, how does it interact with ASDI down and/or true CC?

2.) How many frames of "ledge occupancy" (again, don't know if this is the correct term it's just what I use to describe it) does each ledge option give? How long until after I hit regular get up, get up attack, ledge roll etc does it take for another player to be able to grab the ledge, assuming my action is uninterrupted by damage/an attack or anything else

 

[Bones0]

1.) How much "frame advantage" or whatever term you wish to use does Falco laser give? Like, how much histun does it have and does it apply hitlag? (Presumably only to the person receiving the laser). I apologize if I'm unclear or wording this wrong I'm just having trouble testing this for probably silly reasons. It's probably a quick calculation so if anybody can tell me the exact formula that would be great. Also, how does it interact with ASDI down and/or true CC?

2.) How many frames of "ledge occupancy" (again, don't know if this is the correct term it's just what I use to describe it) does each ledge option give? How long until after I hit regular get up, get up attack, ledge roll etc does it take for another player to be able to grab the ledge, assuming my action is uninterrupted by damage/an attack or anything else

1. I'm pretty sure laser stun varies by a frame or two by character, but Falco himself suffers 12 frames of hitlag+stun from lasers (the Falco FIRING the laser doesn't experience hitlag).

Frame advantage is dependent on how soon after firing the laser Falco lands, spacing, and weird hurtbox issues such as a high laser hitting later due to the victim being in an animation that resembles a crouch (jumpsquat is a common one). If he's airborne, such as when shooting the first laser in a LHDL, he is at a 2-3 frame disadvantage (I forget).

You can't ASDI the laser down into the ground (land cancel) unless you were already airborne slightly above the ground because it doesn't lift you off the ground. A true CC will reduce the stun, but idk by how much.

2.

Ledge occupation is the same as animation length, except for ledgejumps. For those, it seems to be just as long as the move’s intangibility (confirmed that for Falco, didn’t test others so far).

 

[Deleted member 212841]

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[Deleted member 212841]

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