Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Plunder]

Yo, in this video it looks like Lucky walltechs S2J's dtilt and then lands on the stage. How is this possible?

Looks like he was a tiny bit above the lip and I'm guessing it has to do with how the spacies Side-B travels faster than most moves can activate on frames (hence why they almost always fly the opposite way you hit them out of their Side-B) and I'm guessing Lucky just SDI'ed at a downward angle which would explain landing on the ground reversed. Maybe he teched the corner lip of BF and it glitched him above, seems like he did a regular jump land animation.

I'm just speculating until someone answers for sure.

 

[Bones0]

He definitely wall teched because you can see Fox in the animation for a split-second. He must have DIed the dtilt upwards and drifted in so that he was high enough on the wall for his ECB to touch the ground.

 

[Kadano]

Yo, in this video it looks like Lucky walltechs S2J's dtilt and then lands on the stage. How is this possible?

The video is only 30 fps so I can’t really tell what’s going on in the missing frames. I wasn’t able to replicate the situation at all.

Edit: Okay I managed to replicate it after all. It seems you need to SDI with an angle from 17.1°-30° if you SDI on the first frame of hitlag. Haven’t replicated it for the later frames of hitlag yet.
I’m pretty sure it’s because the slanted ledge wall on BF lets your ECB interact with it differently than on other stages, but I don’t understand it entirely yet.

 

[Traivlin]

This is probably not the best thread to ask this, but if I use Dolphin's frame advance instead of the in-game, debug one, why is it that the first frame of an action gets replaced with a "wait1" frame in the input display?
For example, if I'd jump with Marth, the frames would normally be "kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, jumpf, jumpf".

Now when I do the same thing with Dolphin's frame advance, it's "wait1, kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, jumpf" and the last kneebend is already clearly in an airborne state.
I'm using 4.0-7161, if that makes a difference.

 

[Kadano]

This is probably not the best thread to ask this, but if I use Dolphin's frame advance instead of the in-game, debug one, why is it that the first frame of an action gets replaced with a "wait1" frame in the input display?
For example, if I'd jump with Marth, the frames would normally be "kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, jumpf, jumpf".

Now when I do the same thing with Dolphin's frame advance, it's "wait1, kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, kneebend, jumpf" and the last kneebend is already clearly in an airborne state.
I'm using 4.0-7161, if that makes a difference.

Melee’s develop mode animation frame display is delayed by one frame. Usually you don’t notice that because in develop mode while the game is paused only the very first screen output to your monitor will lag behind, all after that will be updated to the current frame that you’ve paused at. But with Dolphin frame advance, it will halt Gamecube emulation so you never see Melee’s repeated frames where it would have updated to show the current frame’s animation number.

 

[CAUP]

Thought this would be a good place to say this, for an explanation or science.

I was peach, my brother ganondorf of FoD and he down aired me when I was standing, my final percent being 125 and I lived. And I didn't just barely live, I just went over the top platform, at about peach's height if she was standing on it. I left view for MAYBE a second and was back, probably less that a second. My trajectory was perfectly straight up. I wasn't doing any weird DI thing, I think I was just holding right? It was weird enough that we were both very confused.

My theory is I was in the first frame or two of jumping off the ground and bounced? Would that work?

 

[Bones0]

Thought this would be a good place to say this, for an explanation or science.

I was peach, my brother ganondorf of FoD and he down aired me when I was standing, my final percent being 125 and I lived. And I didn't just barely live, I just went over the top platform, at about peach's height if she was standing on it. I left view for MAYBE a second and was back, probably less that a second. My trajectory was perfectly straight up. I wasn't doing any weird DI thing, I think I was just holding right? It was weird enough that we were both very confused.

My theory is I was in the first frame or two of jumping off the ground and bounced? Would that work?

If you were in the air when you got daired (which is possible during missed techs), then you would not bounce off the ground. Spikes can only send you upwards if you are grounded. You probably just crouch cancelled.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Is there any move that is able to be used like a Multi-Shine? Or, if the character in mind can do this move, jump cancel it , use it again just after leaving the ground allowing it to be used over and over in theory; like a multi-shine?

 

[tm]

Thought this would be a good place to say this, for an explanation or science.

I was peach, my brother ganondorf of FoD and he down aired me when I was standing, my final percent being 125 and I lived. And I didn't just barely live, I just went over the top platform, at about peach's height if she was standing on it. I left view for MAYBE a second and was back, probably less that a second. My trajectory was perfectly straight up. I wasn't doing any weird DI thing, I think I was just holding right? It was weird enough that we were both very confused.

My theory is I was in the first frame or two of jumping off the ground and bounced? Would that work?

You must have been crouch-canceling.

 

[Traivlin]

Is there any move that is able to be used like a Multi-Shine? Or, if the character in mind can do this move, jump cancel it , use it again just after leaving the ground allowing it to be used over and over in theory; like a multi-shine?

It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but there's the possibility of using ECB, platform drops and aerials to achieve something like this:

 

[Mc.Rad]

It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but there's the possibility of using ECB, platform drops and aerials to achieve something like this:

20TT is real

 

[Comet7]

how much less knockback does shine have in the air when v canceled?

does anybody have %'s for when fox's jab to up smash is a combo on everyone? i want to know when the up smash could be v canceled too.

 

[Bones0]

how much less knockback does shine have in the air when v canceled?

does anybody have %'s for when fox's jab to up smash is a combo on everyone? i want to know when the up smash could be v canceled too.

VCing doesn't affect KB or stun. It only reduces your launch velocity.

You can test jab-usmash %s in Training Mode.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

Hi, SilentWolf once said that SDIs reduces hitstun. I was doubtful at first but then I saw it multiple times in in-game situations. Do we have frame evidence of this ?

 

[Kadano]

Hi, SilentWolf once said that SDIs reduces hitstun. I was doubtful at first but then I saw it multiple times in in-game situations. Do we have frame evidence of this ?

I can pull frame evidence to disprove it (I checked in the past, documenting takes longer though) but I don’t want to go through that effort until someone shows me good video evidence that there is truth to it.

 

[Traivlin]

I made a gyfcat real quick. When Marth changes his state from DamageFlyN to DamageFall, he's out of hitstun.

With and without SDI enter DamageFall at the same frame, so it doesn't reduce hitstun.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

Awesome thank you.

 

[tauKhan]

Yo, in this video it looks like Lucky walltechs S2J's dtilt and then lands on the stage. How is this possible?

I had something similar happen to me on saturday in friendlies. I was standing near ledge at pokemon stadium as fox, and then hit by another foxes running upsmash at pretty high %. Somehow I wall tech jumped immediately afterward even though I was definitely above the stage preceding the hit. I can't remember for sure that I was on the ground though, I might have just jumped before the hit. Can anyone think of an explanation for that? ( Kadano )

 

[Kadano]

Maybe you pressed away from the stage when you got hit, intending to angle your jump away, and got that input read as SDI away, pushing you off from the stage. Then, a few frames later, you pressed down and towards the stage, causing hard collision against the wall.

 

[tauKhan]

Wouldn't the tech then have occured by the ledge though? In my scenario, the wall tech jump clearly happened on stage at the same spot I got hit at, or at least close by. To clarify, I think I was at least 5 units inland from the ledge. It looked almost like I was amsah teching, except I got wall tech jump instead of tech roll.

Now that I think of it, I have been pushed through the stage with shine near the ledge before, maybe it had something to do with glitchy stage detection.

 

[Kadano]

Was PS currently in transformation mode or transitioning to it?

 

[tauKhan]

It was normal stage, I don't think it was starting transformation, but I can't remember it that well unfortunately. Too bad it was not recorded , hard to replicate a situation I only remember roughly now. Also just occurred to me that the setup was 20xx, maybe that's the cause.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

Was it similar to what they do here with the smashes near the ledge ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1PYPAYWTII

EDIT: I have a question myself, is there any difference between standing shield and dash/shield or run/shield ? Like does the shield comes out at the same frame after the input ?

 

[Kadano]

Shield is always active from frame 1 on. You can’t shield at the first 4 frames of an initial dash though.

 

[tauKhan]

Was it similar to what they do here with the smashes near the ledge ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1PYPAYWTII

No, the wall tech started inland much further away from the ledge. The yellow effect that comes from teching literally appeared above ground. I guess the most probable explanation is that there was invisible wall still left from transformation or something. I don't remember it being close to transformation phases, but then again I don't remember the situation that well to be honest.

 

[Pawpz]

how am i supposed to measure frames? like whats the definition of them, and how am i supposed to learn the timings of when to hit x frame?

 

[FlockOfFlames]

No, the wall tech started inland much further away from the ledge. The yellow effect that comes from teching literally appeared above ground. I guess the most probable explanation is that there was invisible wall still left from transformation or something. I don't remember it being close to transformation phases, but then again I don't remember the situation that well to be honest.

The only thing I'm sure of is that it has nothing to do with transformations since I already saw that once on Dreamland (someone had it on his signature on the french boards). It seemed like the character teched directly onto the face of the other character who was standing near the ledge. I think it's some sort of SDI shenanigans.

how am i supposed to measure frames? like whats the definition of them, and how am i supposed to learn the timings of when to hit x frame?

You don't. It's 1/60th of a second so no human can measure them and exploit them precisely without tools. Most of the time you'll have a frame window to do an action (i.e L-cancel, tech, ...), so you just have to learn a timing, not precise frames. Frames are here to help you understand how the game works, not how to play it. Of course 1 frame tricks are doable, but they're rare and hard to pull off consistently. The only relevant one I can think off right now is pivots.

 

[Pawpz]

Exactly, so how would one perform, lets say, multi-shining with Falco, as such a consistent rate? Is it all just timing?

 

[Pawpz]

The only thing I'm sure of is that it has nothing to do with transformations since I already saw that once on Dreamland (someone had it on his signature on the french boards). It seemed like the character teched directly onto the face of the other character who was standing near the ledge. I think it's some sort of SDI shenanigans.



You don't. It's 1/60th of a second so no human can measure them and exploit them precisely without tools. Most of the time you'll have a frame window to do an action (i.e L-cancel, tech, ...), so you just have to learn a timing, not precise frames. Frames are here to help you understand how the game works, not how to play it. Of course 1 frame tricks are doable, but they're rare and hard to pull off consistently. The only relevant one I can think off right now is pivots.

And another thing to add onto my last statement above, what about timing for the 3 different length's of a Falco side-b?

 

[Bones0]

Exactly, so how would one perform, lets say, multi-shining with Falco, as such a consistent rate? Is it all just timing?

It's all just timing and practice. You can usually tell you pressed a button on the correct frame based on what happens on screen (such as with a double shine or mid shorten), but there are situations where it can be harder to tell. Wavedashes are frequently done a frame or 2 slower than perfect in games without anyone really taking notice, but you can at least practice frame perfect wavedashes by rolling towards the edge and WDing (if you're slow, you will airdodge). Knowing exactly when shield stun ends or the lag from an attack/landing animation are other common situations where you want to be able to consistently be frame perfect or as close as possible.

 

[Pawpz]

How about frames for a Jump Cancel Shine? And how would i perform it? I have the concept of it but idk the timing

 

[Stride]

How about frames for a Jump Cancel Shine? And how would i perform it? I have the concept of it but idk the timing

If you mean shining after a jump cancel:
You input the shine on the last frame of jumpsquat, which makes you shine on the next frame (inputs take effect the frame after they are made), i.e. the first airborne frame. Although the shine interrupts your upwards movement from the jump, you are still airborne; it takes 2 frames to fall back to the ground after the shine.

If you mean jump cancelling a shine:
The earliest you can jump out of shine is frame 4. If you connect with something then you need to delay your jump even longer to account for the hitlag (by more 3 frames with Fox, 4 with Falco).

Frame data is here:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Down_special
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falco_(SSBM)/Down_special

 

[tauKhan]

While the shine interrupts your upwards movement from the jump, you are still airborne; it takes 2 frames to fall back to the ground after the shine.

On flat static surface you land on 5th shine frame if you perform jump shine perfectly. However outputting jump on that 5th frame still causes you to dj out of shine, since you're still in the air at the beginning of that frame. You can only get hit by grounded hitting hitboxes on that 5th frame though.

 

[Kuralesache]

I have a question about clanging: I've noticed that pikachu's ftilt and nair tend to clang with falco's side-b a lot, and not very much (if ever) with fox's side-b. I've watched the relevant video Kadano made a few times but I'm not sure I fully understand why it would happen only sometimes, and why pikachu's nair doesn't seem to ever clang with any other moves, if it has its clang bit enabled. I don't know how to look at the bit data that's referenced in the video or I'd look more into it myself.

What I know so far, or can infer per the video, is that pika's nair has a hitbox interaction bit set to 1, and falco's phantasm has a artib bit (not sure what that stands for) set to 1 as well. But if that's the case, shouldn't pikachu's nair also be able to clang with fireballs? Or do fireballs have a hib of 1 and an artib of 0? ... what is artib, anyway?

I would like to know what's causing this interaction in more detail, and if there's anything I can do to make sure I'm edgeguarding falco with more consistency! Which of pikachu's moves have hib values of 0 (I'm guessing fsmash is one)? Thanks so much!

 

[Kadano]

I have a question about clanging: I've noticed that pikachu's ftilt and nair tend to clang with falco's side-b a lot, and not very much (if ever) with fox's side-b. I've watched the relevant video Kadano made a few times but I'm not sure I fully understand why it would happen only sometimes, and why pikachu's nair doesn't seem to ever clang with any other moves, if it has its clang bit enabled. I don't know how to look at the bit data that's referenced in the video or I'd look more into it myself.

What I know so far, or can infer per the video, is that pika's nair has a hitbox interaction bit set to 1, and falco's phantasm has a artib bit (not sure what that stands for) set to 1 as well. But if that's the case, shouldn't pikachu's nair also be able to clang with fireballs? Or do fireballs have a hib of 1 and an artib of 0? ... what is artib, anyway?

I would like to know what's causing this interaction in more detail, and if there's anything I can do to make sure I'm edgeguarding falco with more consistency! Which of pikachu's moves have hib values of 0 (I'm guessing fsmash is one)? Thanks so much!

I explain article hitbox interaction bits in the same video you watched. Time link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOlQv-9S1zE&t=10m21s

You can look into Pikachu’s move properties with the hitbox collection that’s linked in this video’s description.

 

[Kuralesache]

Thanks so much Kadano! I didn't realize that section of the video existed, I was just watching the first mention of clanging over and over
The spreadsheet is kind of difficult to read, but from what I gathered, fsmash and dsmash are the only 2 moves pikachu that won't clang with phantasm... though there are pretty good reasons not to use a slow smash to cover falco's options... and maybe I WANT to clang with the hitbox in some situations. Anyway, I think I understand it now, thank you!

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[tauKhan]

On the first aerial frame of jump, gravity doesn't affect your speed. However if you perform aerial on that frame, gravity is applied, and that's all there really is to it as far as I know. Thus if you don't aerial immediately, your starting velocity is higher, and that may make the jump last more than 1 frame longer.

 

[tauKhan]

Kadano , @Stratocaster, @Kyu Puff or anyone else, does the shieldstun formula s=[ (dmg + 4,45) / 2,235 ] include shield hitlag frames as 1 frame like the hitstun formula does, or does it refer to the amount of stun after hitlag? For example, is the total shield lag inflicted by fresh falco laser 6 or 7 frames?

 

[Kadano]

Kadano , @Stratocaster, @Kyu Puff or anyone else, does the shieldstun formula s=[ (dmg + 4,45) / 2,235 ] include shield hitlag frames as 1 frame like the hitstun formula does, or does it refer to the amount of stun after hitlag? For example, is the total shield lag inflicted by fresh falco laser 6 or 7 frames?

It only refers to the part after hitlag. Falco laser shieldstun on full shield is 7 frames.