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Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

Comet7

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what are the requirements for triggering the spike stun animation and how long is it (i remember 10 frames, not sure if this is right)?
 
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tauKhan

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If you spike a grounded opponent, the animation he goes into depends on the hurtbubble you connect to (I believe) and the strength of kb. While the animation lengths differ a lot , the opponent becomes actionable exactly when his hitstun runs out, and hitstun is a function of kb and doesn't depend on the animation.
 
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tauKhan

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Here's the formula for kb that scales with victim's %, taken from a thread linked in the compendium of knowledge:
{{[(Total Damage * 0.1) + (Damage * Total Damage * 0.05)] * VictimKBMultB * 1.4 * [200 / (Weight + 100)] + 18} * (KBG * 0.01)} + BKB

Damage there is the unstaled damage of the hitbox, except staling is applied to this variable with some projectiles. I believe this is the difference to Brawl, where staling is always applied to this variable.

Total Damage is the total percentage of victim after hit. This is the only part where staling normally has an effect.

As you can see, in most cases referring to percentage after hit is a way to take staling into account undirectly, since the only way staling matters is that it lowers percentage after hit.
 
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Kadano

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Master hand is telling me sheik's ftilt should be doing 8% but it's definitely only doing 7% in debug menu. I don't have the time right now to test what it does unstaled in normal melee but I'd still like to find out why there's this inconsistency if anybody happens to know.
You maybe loaded the false character file. PlSk is Sheik, and her AttackS3 subaction shows 7 dmg for me (which is the correct number).
 
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Rachman

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http://imgur.com/5ESpWUz does anyone know the cause for this red effect? Apparently my friend only gets it inconsistently apparently when attempting to replicate it in frame-by-frame. Is it unique or is it merely the hex code associated with Yoshi's nair hitting the opponent (my theory lol)? Just curious in case it is anything more interesting
 

tauKhan

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It only refers to the part after hitlag. Falco laser shieldstun on full shield is 7 frames.
Is there a mistake in this post about ps then? In the table for shieldstun falco's shine inflicts on various shields, the shieldstun is the same as predicted by the formula in the linked post by magus, but you state below the table that the hit frame is included in the stun.
 

Kadano

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Is there a mistake in this post about ps then? In the table for shieldstun falco's shine inflicts on various shields, the shieldstun is the same as predicted by the formula in the linked post by magus, but you state below the table that the hit frame is included in the stun.
Thank you, yes I made a mistake. I said that shieldstun is counted including one iteration of shield hitlag, but I actually didn’t add that in it seems. Testing it again in Dolphin gives:
GuardDamage 0 [5 iterations]
GuardDamage 3.59
GuardDamage 7.18
GuardDamage 10.77
GuardDamage 14.36
GuardDamage 17.95

I guess the best way to correct is is to revert to the traditional way of calling all 5 iterations hitlag. Do you agree?
 

Vestboy_Myst

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anyone have info on the particulars of peach's up+B?

it seems she has 3 fall speeds. one is the slow fall with umbrella up and good horizontal mobility, then two fast falls. one is faster and happens when you time the 'down' press (like a normal fastfall) after you start falling with the umbrella, but another seems slightly slower and happens when you buffer 'down' before the rising animation ends. are these two speeds actually different?

does the exact fall speed change her horizontal mobility as well? one of my earliest memories from watching vods was seeing mafia do an up+B in the middle of FD, then fastfall and slide backward pretty far on landing to dodge the punish (almost like a tomahawk waveland back) but i cant seem to find the vod or recreate it. i'll keep looking

EDIT 3/5/2016 i found an example, at 3:28 in this video armada does it. maybe i was thinking of him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnQ89h9cLoI
 
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Sycorax

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anyone have info on the particulars of peach's up+B?

it seems she has 3 fall speeds. one is the slow fall with umbrella up and good horizontal mobility, then two fast falls. one is faster and happens when you time the 'down' press (like a normal fastfall) after you start falling with the umbrella, but another seems slightly slower and happens when you buffer 'down' before the rising animation ends. are these two speeds actually different?

does the exact fall speed change her horizontal mobility as well? one of my earliest memories from watching vods was seeing mafia do an up+B in the middle of FD, then fastfall and slide backward pretty far on landing to dodge the punish (almost like a tomahawk waveland back) but i cant seem to find the vod or recreate it. i'll keep looking
I did some experimenting in Magus's physics mod. You're right, there are three speeds. This is how it works:

You have your fall speed with your umbrella open. This is -0.45mm/f. This is your fallspeed when you end the upwards part of your up b. If you close your umbrella then reopen it, your fallspeed instantly becomes this number.

If you close your umbrella while falling with it, there are two options. You can enter your fast fall or you can enter you slower fall. If you press down fully or close to fully, you'll fastfall at Peach's ff terminal velocity of 2mm/f. If you press down slightly, you'll just fall. You'll start at -.045mm/f (because you started with the umbrella) and accelerate at Peach's gravity value of 0.08mm/f^2. Peach will accelerate at that rate until she reaches her terminal velocity of 1.5mm/f. This is like doing a non-fastfall after a jump. The difference in the analog stick inputs of falling fast versus not is similar to the difference between dash and walk, but vertical instead of horizontal. (Interesting to note: if you are just in your normal falling animation, say, after jumping or running off a platform, any magnitude of down will cause you to fastfall, but with Peach's umbrella you can choose to fastfall or normal fall).

There are several parts to Peach's up-b. There is the launch part at the beginning. Then there is the opening the umbrella part that comes right after, which takes 15 frames. This is the same animation that takes place when reopen your umbrella after closing it. If you press and hold full down during those lag frames, when you finish the opening animation, you'll instantly close the umbrella upon opening it and enter that slow fall. This is similar to how, if you press right during the landing lag of an aerial, you'll exit the lag in walk, not dash. Of course, if you input the direction at end of the lag, the game will read it as a smash input. Same with pressing down for Peach.

I hope this makes sense to you. I feel like my explanation was rather bad.
 

Vestboy_Myst

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I did some experimenting in Magus's physics mod. You're right, there are three speeds. This is how it works:

You have your fall speed with your umbrella open. This is -0.45mm/f. This is your fallspeed when you end the upwards part of your up b. If you close your umbrella then reopen it, your fallspeed instantly becomes this number.

If you close your umbrella while falling with it, there are two options. You can enter your fast fall or you can enter you slower fall. If you press down fully or close to fully, you'll fastfall at Peach's ff terminal velocity of 2mm/f. If you press down slightly, you'll just fall. You'll start at -.045mm/f (because you started with the umbrella) and accelerate at Peach's gravity value of 0.08mm/f^2. Peach will accelerate at that rate until she reaches her terminal velocity of 1.5mm/f. This is like doing a non-fastfall after a jump. The difference in the analog stick inputs of falling fast versus not is similar to the difference between dash and walk, but vertical instead of horizontal. (Interesting to note: if you are just in your normal falling animation, say, after jumping or running off a platform, any magnitude of down will cause you to fastfall, but with Peach's umbrella you can choose to fastfall or normal fall).

There are several parts to Peach's up-b. There is the launch part at the beginning. Then there is the opening the umbrella part that comes right after, which takes 15 frames. This is the same animation that takes place when reopen your umbrella after closing it. If you press and hold full down during those lag frames, when you finish the opening animation, you'll instantly close the umbrella upon opening it and enter that slow fall. This is similar to how, if you press right during the landing lag of an aerial, you'll exit the lag in walk, not dash. Of course, if you input the direction at end of the lag, the game will read it as a smash input. Same with pressing down for Peach.

I hope this makes sense to you. I feel like my explanation was rather bad.
thanks for your work! did you happen to have any time to check the horizontal movement in each fall state? the slow fall obviously gives you the greatest range of freedom, but are there any differences between the two fast falls? on landing, does one preserve more horizontal momentum than the other?
 

Sycorax

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thanks for your work! did you happen to have any time to check the horizontal movement in each fall state? the slow fall obviously gives you the greatest range of freedom, but are there any differences between the two fast falls? on landing, does one preserve more horizontal momentum than the other?
I didn't check it. I forgot. But I'd be really really really really really surprised if there were any differences. The fall state is just FallSpecial so Peach's regular aerial mobility should apply. With the slow fall, delta y is much smaller giving you a relatively larger delta x, but absolutely the same. The landing is just the regular LandingFallSepcial so the traction shouldn't change. I'm out of town so I can't check but I wouldn't count on any differences. Peach's landing lag from a packed umbrella is only 3 frames so it could have been a quick land into wave dash.
 

Vestboy_Myst

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I didn't check it. I forgot. But I'd be really really really really really surprised if there were any differences. The fall state is just FallSpecial so Peach's regular aerial mobility should apply. With the slow fall, delta y is much smaller giving you a relatively larger delta x, but absolutely the same. The landing is just the regular LandingFallSepcial so the traction shouldn't change. I'm out of town so I can't check but I wouldn't count on any differences. Peach's landing lag from a packed umbrella is only 3 frames so it could have been a quick land into wave dash.
yeah thats what im thinking it was too, there really isnt much else it could be. thanks for the work
 

Kadano

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Is there a sort of knockback threshold like 80 for ASDI down where true jab resets stop working or are there too many variables to have something so convenient? I want to be able to just do the math to find out when the theoretical opponent can start rolling out rather than having to test percent by percent in debug menu for the concerned characters. If you happen to have the magic numbers for both with and without ASDI up, that would be cool.
http://www.smashboards.com/posts/9872129
 

Vestboy_Myst

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how many frames after catching an item with Z (turnip, if it matters) do you have to wait before you can Z drop?

EDIT: answer is one frame accd to vesne
 
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Comet7

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question about SDI in different versions. smashwiki tells me that moves that deal less than 1% are smash DI able, and that this is why samus is better in 1.0. however, master hand tells me that every hitbox on samus's up special do 1%. i know how staleness works, so if the move technically does 55% percent of the 1 damage, does that make it unable to be smash DI'd?
 

Stride

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question about SDI in different versions. smashwiki tells me that moves that deal less than 1% are smash DI able, and that this is why samus is better in 1.0. however, master hand tells me that every hitbox on samus's up special do 1%. i know how staleness works, so if the move technically does 55% percent of the 1 damage, does that make it unable to be smash DI'd?
Moves can do non-integer damage and characters can have non-integer damage levels, even though the damage display doesn't show it. Hitboxes can stale to below 1 point of damage.
 
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tauKhan

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Adding to that, I believe all hitboxes have integer default value for damage. Thus only a hitbox which does exactly 1% unstaled can (and will) do less than 1% when staled.
 

GenNyan

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Say I'm playing Falco against a fox using Up-B to recover. Is it (reasonably) possible for me to use D-air in such a way that it will trade with Fox's Up-B every time? Like if I started my dair early and hit from the side maybe?
 

Bones0

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Say I'm playing Falco against a fox using Up-B to recover. Is it (reasonably) possible for me to use D-air in such a way that it will trade with Fox's Up-B every time? Like if I started my dair early and hit from the side maybe?
Usually it only happens if your dair hits on the same frame as their fire. Even if you FF that isn't likely though. Most of the time I've seen them trade is when you do a rising dair from below them or when the dair hitbox comes out right as you're on top of them. You also have to keep in mind that if your timing is even slightly off, you might dair them before or after the hitbox.

I recommend nairing if you want to trade. FFing a nair into them will almost always trade and worst case scenario you can at least make it back to the ledge with an up-B as long as you naired as early as possible.

Edit: Just realized you might be talking about the part of Fox's up-B where he's actually moving. If that's the case, it's very easy to trade with dair, but you would really have to know what angle they're taking to be spaced properly. FFing before the collision is the best way to ensure it trades due to hitbox dragging.
 
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Vestboy_Myst

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can i get a picture of puff's item grab box, plus any frame data on it (duration, any differences in aerial vs grounded) thank you in advance
 

Sycorax

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reverie2

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Couple questions:

1. If I do an attack that does 5 frames of shieldstun and 2 frames of hitlag, are the 2 frames of hitlag experienced simultaneously with 2 frames of shieldstun? or do the 5 frames of shieldstun take place after hitlag?

2. True/False? An attack being electric does not change amount of shieldstun or hitlag frames. I'm thinking this is true but just want to make sure
 

Sycorax

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Couple questions:

1. If I do an attack that does 5 frames of shieldstun and 2 frames of hitlag, are the 2 frames of hitlag experienced simultaneously with 2 frames of shieldstun? or do the 5 frames of shieldstun take place after hitlag?

2. True/False? An attack being electric does not change amount of shieldstun or hitlag frames. I'm thinking this is true but just want to make sure
1. No. Shield-hitlag comes first, then shieldstun. In your example, it would be 2 frames of shield-hitlag, then 2 frames of shieldstun. This is not the case with normal hitlag and hitstun. When your character is hit, the first frame of hitstun is repeated X times as hitlag, then your character continues with the rest of hitstun. So if a move did 4 frames of hitlag and 11 frames of hitstun, The first frame of hitstun would be repeated 4 times as hitlag, then there would be 10 more frames of hitstun.

2. False? I may just be your terminology is a little wonky. Electric attacks increase hitlag by a factor of 1.5. However, they do not increase shield-hitlag. They do not affect hitstun.
 

reverie2

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For the first question, could you explain how you only have 2 frames of shield stun assuming the shieldstun formula resulted in 5 shieldstun frames (floor((X + 4.45)/2.235))?

Shield-hitlag comes first, then shieldstun
^this makes it sound like you have 2 shield-hitlag frames first, then 5 shieldstun, but i'm probably interpreting it incorrectly

For the 2nd question I mistyped, i actually meant shield-hitlag, not regular hitlag, but you answered my question. Thanks so much for the response.
 

Quetzalcoatl

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Could someone please find out for me how many frames it takes Peach to Double Jump Land onto the side platforms of Yoshis, Battlefield, Stadium, Fountain (max height) and Dreamland.

Also how long it takes to DJL from the side platforms to the top platform.

Can someone clarify if Beam Sword's dash attack causes additional shield damage (jab, tilt and smash do).

Also do wink, dot eyes and stitchface cause bonus shield damage.

Can someone explain how shield damage is calculated (not shield stun)
 
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Vestboy_Myst

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Sycorax

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Can someone clarify if Beam Sword's dash attack causes additional shield damage (jab, tilt and smash do).
Dash attack doesn't. Jab does 2, Ftilt 4, Fsmash 6. To give you an idea of how big those are. Most attacks do 0 additional shield damage. Marth's uncharged shield breaker does 38 additional damage.
Also do wink, dot eyes and stitchface cause bonus shield damage.
I can test this, but it'll have to be after finals week X( Unfortunately, there is no record of them in the hitbox spreadsheet. There is one for turnips in general, but it lists their regular damage as 2, shield damage as 0, and doesn't include information about how they are modified for stronger turnips.
Can someone explain how shield damage is calculated (not shield stun)
Magus can!... kinda...
Shield damage is how much additional damage it does to shields. It adds onto the normal hitbox damage, so if a 16 dmg hitbox has 8 shield dmg on it, it does as much damage to shields as 24 dmg hitboxes do... Z shield has 68 health, and hard shield has 83.
Those amounts (68 and 83) were to give an idea of the damage scaling using points of damage. About 68 damage at once will break a full health shield while lightest shielding and about 83 breaks a hard shield
Later he says:
Shields have a max health of 60.
These don't give a fully picture of how shield damage is determined but I hope it helps. I'll probably figure it out and write a coherent post later (after finals).

lol thanks for trying GenNyan GenNyan

anyone else able to be of help?
Dude, just go into debug mode and press R+Left on the dpad 3 or 4 times. When you see the big grey/white box, those are item grab boxes.
 

Sycorax

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For the first question, could you explain how you only have 2 frames of shield stun assuming the shieldstun formula resulted in 5 shieldstun frames (floor((X + 4.45)/2.235))?
I was just using the numbers you gave me. Truthfully, 2 frames of shieldhitlag and 5 frames of stun is impossible in the game. Shieldhitlag is calculated the same as regular hitlag as floor[dmg/3+3]. It has a minimum of 3. Shieldstun is calculated by the formula you mentioned, floor((dmg + 4.45)/2.235).

this makes it sound like you have 2 shield-hitlag frames first, then 5 shieldstun, but i'm probably interpreting it incorrectly
I think you're interpreting it correctly. Let's use a real example though. Marth's uair does 7 frames of shieldhitlag and 7 frames of shieldhitstun. Marth hits Peach's shield with uair. They are both frozen for 7 frames of shieldhitlag. Peach can shield SDI if she wants. After those 7 frames, Marth starts moving as he exits shieldhitlag. Peach enters shieldhitstun and cannot do anything for 7 frames.
 

tauKhan

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^this makes it sound like you have 2 shield-hitlag frames first, then 5 shieldstun, but i'm probably interpreting it incorrectly
That's right. As a side note though, it's impossible for a hitbox to do 2 frames of hitlag on shield, since the minimum hitlag is 3 frames. (Except in NTSC 1.0 , where hitbox that deals <1% only has hitframe and no consecuteive hitlag frames, I think that also applies on shield hits)

edit: Too slow lmao
 
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Quetzalcoatl

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Dash attack doesn't. Jab does 2, Ftilt 4, Fsmash 6. To give you an idea of how big those are. Most attacks do 0 additional shield damage. Marth's uncharged shield breaker does 38 additional damage.
Thanks, forgot to ask about thrown beam sword, z drop beam sword from ground (the throw away animation) and bob omb.

Also I did a sneaky edit with an extra question you may have missed:

Could someone please find out for me how many frames it takes Peach to Double Jump Land onto the side platforms of Yoshis, Battlefield, Stadium, Fountain (max height) and Dreamland.

Also how long it takes to DJL from the side platforms to the top platform.

Thanks!
 

Sycorax

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Thanks, forgot to ask about thrown beam sword, z drop beam sword from ground (the throw away animation) and bob omb.
Thrown beam sword does 0 additional shield damage. I didn't find anything on the zdrops. There's a hitbox on the bobomb explosion that does 1 more shield damage... I think.

Also I did a sneaky edit with an extra question you may have missed:

Could someone please find out for me how many frames it takes Peach to Double Jump Land onto the side platforms of Yoshis, Battlefield, Stadium, Fountain (max height) and Dreamland.

Also how long it takes to DJL from the side platforms to the top platform.
I actually saw the edit, I just ignored it because I was tired :lol: Also, it's something that's soooo easy to test by yourself in debug mode.
 
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