Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[JPOBS]

we've seen just about ANY character keep up with a fox and a peach before.... whats the difference?

have we really?

when was the last time a Pika (or any low tier main) beat/took games from a Jman level fox or Armada level peach?

I mean yea, you see amatuer foxs get scraped all the time, and even people just below top level lose ocassionally to taj's mewtwo, germs link, what have you. But when was the last time 2 arguable top 5 players in the world lost/almost lost to low tier?
we're talking about a ridculously high level of play here.

im not even ure where im goign with this, but im not convenced the "foxs get **** by low tiers all the time" thing works in this case.

 

[Kite91]

have we really?

when was the last time a Pika (or any low tier main) beat/took games from a Jman level fox or Armada level peach?

I mean yea, you see amatuer foxs get scraped all the time, and even people just below top level lose ocassionally to taj's mewtwo, germs link, what have you. But when was the last time 2 arguable top 5 players in the world lost/almost lost to low tier?
we're talking about a ridculously high level of play here.

im not even ure where im goign with this, but im not convenced the "foxs get **** by low tiers all the time" thing works in this case.

Yes someone who agrees with me lol

 

[Luma]

give them time until they learn the MU and then axe will get *****

 

[Merkuri]

have we really?

when was the last time a Pika (or any low tier main) beat/took games from a Jman level fox or Armada level peach?

I mean yea, you see amatuer foxs get scraped all the time, and even people just below top level lose ocassionally to taj's mewtwo, germs link, what have you. But when was the last time 2 arguable top 5 players in the world lost/almost lost to low tier?
we're talking about a ridculously high level of play here.

im not even ure where im goign with this, but im not convenced the "foxs get **** by low tiers all the time" thing works in this case.

Jman is probably top 8 in the country, he beats a lot of low tier mains on the merit that he's a great player and not on the merit of Fox. We're not even talking about amatuer fox players here, we can use other Fox pros as examples.

Comso's beaten Kels and Tink with Zelda. Taj beat Lucky at Apex, Ka Master beat Swift bass at Pound 4. Shroomed beat I think every fox in main California, Linguini and Kage beat more foxes than i care to count. I remember reading that Hugs hasn't lost to a fox main since Mew2king mained him o_0. If I went back pass 2010 this list wouldn't stop. Fox main lose to lower tier mains more than any other top tier character.

 

[Rappster]

Jman is probably top 8 in the country, he beats a lot of low tier mains on the merit that he's a great player and not on the merit of Fox. We're not even talking about amatuer fox players here, we can use other Fox pros as examples.

Comso's beaten Kels and Tink with Zelda. Taj beat Lucky at Apex, Ka Master beat Swift bass at Pound 4. Shroomed beat I think every fox in main California, Linguini and Kage beat more foxes than i care to count. I remember reading that Hugs hasn't lost to a fox main since Mew2king mained him o_0. If I went back pass 2010 this list wouldn't stop. Fox main lose to lower tier mains more than any other top tier character.

that's merely because everybody and their mother (esp spam_arrows' mom) knows the fox matchup.

 

[Charlie G]

have we really?

when was the last time a Pika (or any low tier main) beat/took games from a Jman level fox or Armada level peach?

I mean yea, you see amatuer foxs get scraped all the time, and even people just below top level lose ocassionally to taj's mewtwo, germs link, what have you. But when was the last time 2 arguable top 5 players in the world lost/almost lost to low tier?
we're talking about a ridculously high level of play here.

im not even ure where im goign with this, but im not convenced the "foxs get **** by low tiers all the time" thing works in this case.

what. are you ******** or trolling.
axe beat jman himself the last TWO times they played and took a match off armada.

i'm not even interested in the rest of the argument, that was just too silly

 

[rhan]

give them time until they learn the MU and then axe will get *****

Same thing is said for Jiggs and HBox.

Yup.

Stop being ****ing lazy and johning people.

 

[BEES]

I think it's because Smash is a childish game.

You can cuss like a Sailor on Shoryuken.

smash also has a section on shoryuken, and very few smashers ever frequent it

which only serves to otherize the community even further

 

[KAOSTAR]

what. are you ******** or trolling.
axe beat jman himself the last TWO times they played and took a match off armada.

i'm not even interested in the rest of the argument, that was just too silly

real talk lol.

its not like aXe scraped jman either it was really close. I think set two was a come from behind.

jman's only issues after losing at genesis were controller johns (legit, **** got swiper no swiping). none of that MU garbage.

hands down aXe out played his top level fox with his beastchu.

and he scraped shiz, so how you gonna tell that man he all gimmicks no heart. sh**ts absurd homie.

 

[SSBM_Sora]

sokori is a machine^

Thanks!! >=)

 

[JPOBS]

Jman is probably top 8 in the country, he beats a lot of low tier mains on the merit that he's a great player and not on the merit of Fox. We're not even talking about amatuer fox players here, we can use other Fox pros as examples.

Comso's beaten Kels and Tink with Zelda. Taj beat Lucky at Apex, Ka Master beat Swift bass at Pound 4. Shroomed beat I think every fox in main California, Linguini and Kage beat more foxes than i care to count. I remember reading that Hugs hasn't lost to a fox main since Mew2king mained him o_0. If I went back pass 2010 this list wouldn't stop. Fox main lose to lower tier mains more than any other top tier character.

Jman is probably 4th in thr country to be exact and 6th in the world but thats neithe rhere nor there.

I specifically asked for Low tiers examples, samus and ganon are really mid, so for my purposes, it wasnt really necessary to cite them. About the kels/swift bass thing, those guys are pros yea, but i mean TOP level like, that almost never happens ever. The only example i can think of is in fact axe beating jman. So i can't just brush off that " lol foxs lose all the time"

what. are you ******** or trolling.
axe beat jman himself the last TWO times they played and took a match off armada.

i'm not even interested in the rest of the argument, that was just too silly

Well you should have read the rest of the post.

The person i was quoting said "foxs get beat all the time by low tiers, this isnt anything special" and i was responding showing him that in fact, TOP megalevel foxs NEVER lose to bad chars (other than Axe himself) so therefore, this is in fact a special case, because jman/armad level playes dont get scraped by the likes of low tiers like....ever, so this is indeed very impressive.

Know your roll and shut your mouth.

 

[BEES]

Wel you should have read the rest of the post. The person i was quoting said "foxs get beat all the time by low tiers, this isnt anything special" and i was responding showing him that in fact, TOP megalevel foxs NEVER lose to bad chars (other than Axe himself) so therefore, this is in fact a special case, because jman/armad level playes dont get scraped by the likes of low tiers like....ever, so this is indeed very impressive.

Know your roll and shut your mouth.

The correct thing to say is that the best world-class foxes generally trash low tiers but on rare occasions a low tier main rises to the level of skill that can challenge and even beat them.

Shiek and Marth generally present bigger problems for low tiers than Fox; they're the reason successful LT mains have high tier secondaries.

 

[Merkuri]

Jman is probably 4th in thr country to be exact and 6th in the world but thats neithe rhere nor there.

I specifically asked for Low tiers examples, samus and ganon are really mid, so for my purposes, it wasnt really necessary to cite them. About the kels/swift bass thing, those guys are pros yea, but i mean TOP level like, that almost never happens ever. The only example i can think of is in fact axe beating jman. So i can't just brush off that " lol foxs lose all the time"

Jman is more like 6th in the country and 8th in the world, but you're right that's either here nor there.

You say top level Foxes but you're referring to Jman and Jman only aren't you? Kels is in the best group of Foxes right along Silent Wolf, Eggm, Lovage, etc, and yet you still exclude him. You're using Jman as the only representation of Foxes and that's just stupid.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Jman you'd expect to get top 8 at a big tourney.

I wouldn't expect the same of those people you listed.

That's the difference.

 

[john!]

Jman is more like 6th in the country and 4th in the world, but you're right that's either here nor there.

wut lol? this isn't even possible. it's like when that one guy said everybody on the tier list should move up a spot. sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between trolls and stupid.

 

[Merkuri]

wut lol? this isn't even possible. it's like when that one guy said everybody on the tier list should move up a spot. sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between trolls and stupid.

Haha lol, typo. Isn't that obvious man. Don't be dumb.

 

[Eaode]

Jman is probably 4th in thr country to be exact and 6th in the world but thats neithe rhere nor there.

I specifically asked for Low tiers examples, samus and ganon are really mid, so for my purposes, it wasnt really necessary to cite them. About the kels/swift bass thing, those guys are pros yea, but i mean TOP level like, that almost never happens ever. The only example i can think of is in fact axe beating jman. So i can't just brush off that " lol foxs lose all the time"

Well you should have read the rest of the post.

The person i was quoting said "foxs get beat all the time by low tiers, this isnt anything special" and i was responding showing him that in fact, TOP megalevel foxs NEVER lose to bad chars (other than Axe himself) so therefore, this is in fact a special case, because jman/armad level playes dont get scraped by the likes of low tiers like....ever, so this is indeed very impressive.

Know your roll and shut your mouth.

logic fail?


sooooo...

you want the top players in the world to get beat by low tiers before you accept the point?

and when they do, you say "Well that one low tier player is just really good"?

by my knowledge, Axe isnt even as high as the other pros, yes?

so why don't you turn the argument around and say the only reason pro foxes and peaches don't lose to low tiers occasionally is because NOBODY AT TOP LEVEL MAINS LOW TIERS, and those pros just happen to be a lot more skilled than any low-tier mains they happen to play


?

 

[Merkuri]

logic fail?


sooooo...

you want the top players in the world to get beat by low tiers before you accept the point?

and when they do, you say "Well that one low tier player is just really good"?

by my knowledge, Axe isnt even as high as the other pros, yes?

so why don't you turn the argument around and say the only reason pro foxes and peaches don't lose to low tiers occasionally is because NOBODY AT TOP LEVEL MAINS LOW TIERS, and those pros just happen to be a lot more skilled than any low-tier mains they happen to play


?

Oooooh. I like this. Jman is the only Fox main who doesn't lose to lower tier mains. And even that's not true because he lost to Axe(twice)

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I doubt that's the max level axe will ever play at. Also once you became so good it's not the charcters fighting it's the players.compare h-box and puff it seems more like they arre playing each other not just simply the only way puff dittos go.

 

[BEES]

so why don't you turn the argument around and say the only reason pro foxes and peaches don't lose to low tiers occasionally is because NOBODY AT TOP LEVEL MAINS LOW TIERS, and those pros just happen to be a lot more skilled than any low-tier mains they happen to play

Because that's completely true. Very few people at top level main low tiers, and the only successful low tier mains always have high tier secondaries, and often they're better with those secondaries than many high level full time mains are with the same characters, purely because of the skill being a low tier main requires.

 

[HugS™]

I'd say Jman is 4th in the country still. Just pointing that out.

 

[Archangel]

I'd say Jman is 4th in the country still. Just pointing that out.

Him and PP are pretty much Tied for that spot now IMO. Based on how they preform at the same tournaments and vs each other they seem to go back and forward now.


If I have any complaints about this list it's the sudden existence of an upper. Merge Upper and high and It's pretty much a good list.

 

[KAOSTAR]

when was the last time a Pika (or any low tier main) beat/took games from a Jman level fox or Armada level peach?

lol then it was just a bad example.

jman got beat twice, and by a pikachu. I thought shiz was top level also.

id also argue that top level peach players probably haven't run into any low tier mains recently with the exception of macD losing to cosmo. and AR did drop a game to axe.

im fairly certain what he meant was that if a low tier is going to beat a known, pro level player or even one comparable to their level of skill its gonna be a fox or falco. low tiers/the cast in general puts more emphasis on learning that MU (spacie), then falcon.

not actually that top level players are dropping games left and right, because if they were our tier list might be just a tad different.

id also like to sau aXe has like the highest level of execution ive ever seem from a low tier. his level of mastery over his character is comparable to players of jman caliber. he seems to be on the same level and he can compete.

 

[Tero.]

I doubt that's the max level axe will ever play at. Also once you became so good it's not the charcters fighting it's the players.compare h-box and puff it seems more like they arre playing each other not just simply the only way puff dittos go.

Then how come Jman lost to Axe twice if apparently Jman is the better player and the Match-up is in Fox favor?

(Yes, I am pro-"Fox is only #1 in Super Theory Bros Melee")

 

[Merkuri]

Him and PP are pretty much Tied for that spot now IMO. Based on how they preform at the same tournaments and vs each other they seem to go back and forward now.

I'd put Wobbles up there as well. He doesn't travel as much but he ***** which ever tournament he enters.

 

[Masterluigi452]

Why Kirby why???
I tought you were better than Pichu!!!

 

[HugS™]

I'd put Wobbles up there as well. He doesn't travel as much but he ***** which ever tournament he enters.

LoL people jump to a lot of conclusions in this game.

Wobbles is fantastic, and he very well could be top 5 at some point soon, but it's kind of a slap in the face to put him there when others, like jman and PP, have replicated his Apex performance more frequently. Give him time.

 

[Merkuri]

LoL people jump to a lot of conclusions in this game.

Wobbles is fantastic, and he very well could be top 5 at some point soon, but it's kind of a slap in the face to put him there when others, like jman and PP, have replicated his Apex performance more frequently. Give him time.

It's not just about Apex, he hasn't lost a tournament in his region for months. He also won P.O.E., and that was swarmed with talent.

Edit: Zhu could be up there as well.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Then how come Jman lost to Axe twice if apparently Jman is the better player and the Match-up is in Fox favor?

(Yes, I am pro-"Fox is only #1 in Super Theory Bros Melee")

Are you able to read?I don't know who is better axe or J-man nor is that really part of our arhuement. If I was the best bowser main and could go even with some prosGo let's say they all play fox OK. this like fox DDed till he got a grab, this little fox lasered till he got an opening for a nair to shines combos, this little fox was very aggesive, this ittle fox plaed largely off of mindgames, and this little fox went pew pew all the way home.

each fox would narurally be easier or harder for the charcter to deal with. And then also how the bowser plays.if he sheild camps he may do better with the aggesive fox than the one who grabs a lot. If one bowser played mindgames he may do better vs the DDer but worse than the campy fox.

each stsyle of play has flaws other than H-box's. Just a few cases given. maybe J-man couldn't deal with axe;s aggecive pikachu but as for mango's mindgame fox he may be able to.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Zhu is amazing but not that high level of a falco.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Zhu is amazing but not that high level of a falco.

imo top falcos soft order

mango
pp
shiz
callew ««--benefit of doubt. AR *****.
forward
zhu
axe
Chopz<<«-- pew pew
silent wolf
sion
bo10

calleW (somewhere in there)
@pinkreaper, it was definitely chopz.

I think these are the top falcos.

 

[Stevo]

imo top falcos soft order

mango
pp
shiz
forward
zhu
axe
silent wolf
sion
bo10

thats a good list but i feel like someone is missing....

cant put my finger on it though

 

[JPOBS]

lol then it was just a bad example.

jman got beat twice, and by a pikachu. I thought shiz was top level also.

id also argue that top level peach players probably haven't run into any low tier mains recently with the exception of macD losing to cosmo. and AR did drop a game to axe.

im fairly certain what he meant was that if a low tier is going to beat a known, pro level player or even one comparable to their level of skill its gonna be a fox or falco. low tiers/the cast in general puts more emphasis on learning that MU (spacie), then falcon.

not actually that top level players are dropping games left and right, because if they were our tier list might be just a tad different.

id also like to sau aXe has like the highest level of execution ive ever seem from a low tier. his level of mastery over his character is comparable to players of jman caliber. he seems to be on the same level and he can compete.

*facepalm*

Im not sure anyone even understands what we're talking about anymore.

Originally (like 2 pages ago) someone said something like "Axe beating jman wasnt anything special, foxs lose all the time to low tier mains"

My response on consequent posts in this thread have basically been, in a nutshell "Axe beating jman is a monumental event, Players of the qualty of jman level, have almost never ever lost to a low tier player, PERIOD"

I dont care how many pro/semi pro players lose to low tier mains. But, top 5 players IN THE WORLD (jman) shouldnt (read: never other than this one time) lose to low tier characters.

Therefore, Axe beating jman was HUGE. thats all i was trying to say.
Also, the point that fox and falco would probably be the characters most likely to lose to low tiers overall, is negligible because it simply doesnt happen at the level we are talking about anyway.

come on people, follow the ENTIRE discussion and not just the last few posts.

@merkuri: yea, beating swift/sw/lovage isnt the same as beating jman/armada

 

[Merkuri]

People seem to be putting Zhu down since he lost to PP. I mean he is the same guy who beat Jman in tournament a week before Apex.

Zhu = or > Jman imo.

 

[Pink Reaper]

thats a good list but i feel like someone is missing....

cant put my finger on it though

Chops. Its missing chops.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Axe beating jman wasnt anything special, foxs lose all the time to low tier mains"

clearly the misunderstanding lol.

I interpreted that more like pikachu didn't really become better lol, he shouldn't be as high as ganon.

imo axe is approaching TOP level, whereas the other low tier mains we speak of are pro-high level.

I saw them as the same thing because I see axes skill as comparable to top level players.

so pro low tiers have beaten pro high tiers. and axe is the first top low tier, so he was able to compete with top high tiers.

"Axe beating jman is a monumental event, Players of the qualty of jman level, have almost never ever lost to a low tier player, PERIOD"

I dont care how many pro/semi pro players lose to low tier mains. But, top 5 players IN THE WORLD (jman) shouldnt (read: never other than this one time) lose to low tier characters.

Therefore, Axe beating jman was HUGE. thats all i was trying to say.

lol so much more direct.

 

[JPOBS]

yea, agreed.

 

[HugS™]

I'm very aware of his success at smaller tournaments. I'm also very aware of Zhu's difficulty against Ice Climbers.

I'm just saying, give it more time.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wasnt Zhu the one that made Wobbles AZRage Quit at Mango Juice?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

no that was Silent S