NTSC Melee as a tournament standard in Australia

[stabbedbyanipple]

I voted ntsc

........


hi aussies =D

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

@ e alert - Marios second jump is shorter. Test it between the platforms of pokemon stadium (walk off then second jump to reach other platform) - he makes it with ease in NTSC, but it takes a good amount of skill and precision to make it in PAL.

As for there being a buff in handicapping a higher character - see horseracing handicaps and you'll understand C:

Lastly, NTSC new-comers may or may not know less than veterans. For instance someone who has played PAL since 2002 would know more of the game in general than someone who has played NTSC since 2007.

@ Luke_atyeo, this is simplifying it too far. First of all the point you'd be making with the fire and ice comparison would havef to be termed like this in order to be correct "fire is hotter than ice" therefore "ice is less hot than fire" - you don't introduce new parameters when drawing conclusions - this is bad science.
If two people who know nothing about NTSC play NTSC as Sheik, neither will be prepared for the alterations in the moves - no seasoned NTSC veteran is necessary to alter the performance of the new-comer(s) to NTSC - they are non-related factors and so are listed as such.

@KO, Yes they are still the best - this is a given....however if you were to have a game where Sheik = hypothetical value 100 and Kirby = value 30, now make a new version and increase Kirby by a value of 20, and decrease Sheik by a value of 30. Suddenly we have Kirby valued at 50 and Sheik at 70...much closer than it was originally, though Sheik still remains a better value the difference is not as profound. Top tiers remain top, but the range of values decreases = more balance.

@S.D, More characters being played = good. PAL allows many characters to be more tourney viable. Variety is the spice of life - finals with Marth vs Peach get old really fast :\.

@Sieg, There is much more replay value in learning new characters in PAL which potentially could (not saying they will) win tournaments than there is in learning how to exploit chain throws, or rely on a particularly overpowerd move, which actually simplifies the game rather than enriching it.



Between black and white, there are shades of gray. Fuzzy logic = bad.

 

[King Kong]

@KO, Yes they are still the best - this is a given....however if you were to have a game where Sheik = hypothetical value 100 and Kirby = value 30, now make a new version and increase Kirby by a value of 20, and decrease Sheik by a value of 30. Suddenly we have Kirby valued at 50 and Sheik at 70...much closer than it was originally, though Sheik still remains a better value the difference is not as profound. Top tiers remain top, but the range of values decreases = more balance.

@S.D, More characters being played = good. PAL allows many characters to be more tourney viable. Variety is the spice of life - finals with Marth vs Peach get old really fast :\.

Between black and white, there are shades of gray. Fuzzy logic = bad.

Shaz is correct.

Bringer has stated before that Yoshi mains are able to compete in Europe and Australia because of the Sheik nerfs. Otherwise the matchup is basically impossible (As it is with almost all the low tiers in NTSC, many of whom are quite good against Sheik in PAL)

The same goes for characters like Marth Samus and Peach who go pretty even with Sheik in PAL. The focus is not 'shifted' to other characters, the overall field is simply evened out slightly.

We have always enjoyed a wide variety of charcter placings in Australian tournaments - Triss won numerous tournaments with Samus, Bringer won a bunch with Yoshi, Cats has always done well with Pika, even I have had a couple of top 5 placings in nationals with DK just to name a few. This is partly to do with the fact that we are not on the same level as other countries and partly to do with PAL balance.

peace out

 

[Sirias]

No.
TBH I don't much care...
But I would rather be like Europe.
And not America/Japan (i.e fanboy lands, sigh).
<3

 

[Dekar289]

finals with Marth vs Peach get old really fast :\..

this is how every pal tournament in the last few years had ended
except in europe where it's sheik peach instead

in america it's been puff, falcon, fox, falco, peach, sheik and marth in finals

i'd say they have more variety
better players too though...

 

[Technodeath]

i play Bowser in melee :D

i've yet to get decent at the game though. i do plan to.

 

[Surgi]

this is how every pal tournament in the last few years had ended
except in europe where it's sheik peach instead

in america it's been puff, falcon, fox, falco, peach, sheik and marth in finals

i'd say they have more variety
better players too though...

lol Dek is right as usual. Finals is always cao peach and someone marth. It does get boring. Ntsc does buff up top tiers but you act as if they become invincible.

Fox is still hard to use, falco and marth easy to gimp and peach easy to combo. No characters become invincible with NTSC. You guys complain of sheik being too strong but look at the best ntsc players, mango doesnt play sheik, ss doesnt play sheik, m2k doesnt main sheik. So if sheik was unbeatable, if fox and falco and marth cant lose them why do the mango and armada beat them with puff and peach?

I mean sure top tiers are more powerful but srsly its not that big of a deal. I mean if SS can beat all those characters while still being C.Falcon, who is identical in PAL to NTSC as far as I know (if I am wrong please correct me but seeing as no one has even mentioned him yet I'm sure he isn't nerfed much if at all), then I'm sure all you marths and falcos can beat foxes and sheiks because they have a much better matchup than falcon does.

In any case everyone should stop arguing, there is always going to be differing opinions maybe we should just test. If everyone likes it then great if no one does then at least we can say we tried it. ^^ wubs to everyone <3

Edit: Oh yay over 100 posts :D

 

[Sieg]

lol dek is right as usual. Finals is always cao peach and someone marth. It does get boring.

This isn't the games fault at all. This just means people need to practice harder.

I didn't mean that going to NSCT would make people rely on those moves, I meant that it would allow people a new perspective on how to defensively and offensively play when faced with these "Over powered" moves that you guys are talking about. It promotes thinking and mindgames again, which is something everyone always needs to practice.

 

[Dekar289]

sieg, shaz is the one who said marth vs peach gets boring, referring to ntsc finals... i think lol
whereas in fact this is the case with PAL, not ntsc

 

[Sieg]

I know, I was just pointing it out as a general point.

If you don't like Cao's Peach v Marth finals, then get better lol.

 

[Surgi]

I try, I really do dw Sieg it's not lack of trying it's lack of skill on my part. But would you rather peach dittos over peach marth? lulz well I play 2 chars, you guessed it Peach and Marth...

<3 @ Dekar

 

[Dekar289]

ok say i get real good with marth and beat cao
it's still marth vs peach grand finals
say i get real good with fox
what a poo MU, lots of technical skill and disciplined campy gameplay needed by fox, high chance of getting gimped or SDing, even if I put in heaps of work and get a stock lead i can then get killed by a cheap edgeguard or a dsmash
it's like playing against a jigglypuff, erghhh

anyway this isn't important, it's just i think if we switched to NTSC we wouldn't always have peach marth grand finals.... perhaps lol

 

[King Kong]

this is how every pal tournament in the last few years had ended
except in europe where it's sheik peach instead

in america it's been puff, falcon, fox, falco, peach, sheik and marth in finals

i'd say they have more variety
better players too though...

You haven't been around long enough to make claims like that. Let me check my memory banks.

SEAT - Cats (Pika) vs Em (Sheik)
SEAT 2 - Cao (Peach) vs Em (Fox/Peach)
OHN5 - Bringer (Yoshi) vs Sloth (IC's)
COA - Bringer (Fox) vs Cao (Peach)
COA 2 - Cao (Peach) vs Ken (Game and Watch)
COK - Tristan (Samus) vs (I cant remember if it was Cao or Zac, Triss won though)
COK 2(At the start of 08, cant remember its proper name) Accelerate (Sheik/Falcon?) vs Cao (Peach)
Rocky - Kas (Marth) vs Cao (Peach)
SQUAT 5 - S.D (Various characters) vs Kas (Various characters)

There are a couple of other national finals I can think of that were not Marth/Peach but I cant remember.

All we can take from this is that Cao is too good.

And in Europe, Sheik/Peach only happens when Amsah and Armada play. Otherwise Europe is mostly spacies with the occasional Marth or Sheik.

Peace out

 

[Surgi]

You are real good with marth -_- And i would be happy to play jiggs because at least it isnt marth sheik fox or falco

and Dekar go on msn Kthanks

 

[Dekar289]

point taken accelerate, but i did say the last few years
ken playing g and w... lol
and cao didn't even go to squat
plus you sau sheik/peach only happens when amsah and armada play.... those two happen to be the best in the continent... so i don't think you could count any of their tournaments as majors unless amsah and armada were present =p

sigh shaz and catz come to monthleez i miss you

anywaaaaaay

let's trial ntsc melbourne

 

[Pantsmann]

jiggs and falcon are unchanged between pal and ntsc, the fact that neither of them are in finals has nothing to do with version difference, it's more about our actual players than anything else. ntsc will just be marth vs peach again. maybe peach vs sheik. i can't really see why ntsc would really change the matchup in the finals at all. maybe kas will play more fox and we'll see fox in every final, that could happen sure, but i don't see a jiggs falcon rise when the characters that counter them are BETTER in ntsc.

what we really need is for bryce and SD to make it to finals so we can finally see an ICs ditto in grand finals.

 

[Sieg]

ASTC takes over NTSC in America in terms of TV standard now.

Screw NTSC or PAL, let's go SECAM Melee.

 

[S.D]

lol Dek is right as usual. Finals is always cao peach and someone marth. It does get boring. Ntsc does buff up top tiers but you act as if they become invincible.

Fox is still hard to use, falco and marth easy to gimp and peach easy to combo. No characters become invincible with NTSC. You guys complain of sheik being too strong but look at the best ntsc players, mango doesnt play sheik, ss doesnt play sheik, m2k doesnt main sheik. So if sheik was unbeatable, if fox and falco and marth cant lose them why do the mango and armada beat them with puff and peach?

I mean sure top tiers are more powerful but srsly its not that big of a deal. I mean if SS can beat all those characters while still being C.Falcon, who is identical in PAL to NTSC as far as I know (if I am wrong please correct me but seeing as no one has even mentioned him yet I'm sure he isn't nerfed much if at all), then I'm sure all you marths and falcos can beat foxes and sheiks because they have a much better matchup than falcon does.

In any case everyone should stop arguing, there is always going to be differing opinions maybe we should just test. If everyone likes it then great if no one does then at least we can say we tried it. ^^ wubs to everyone <3

Edit: Oh yay over 100 posts :D

jiggs and falcon are unchanged between pal and ntsc, the fact that neither of them are in finals has nothing to do with version difference, it's more about our actual players than anything else. ntsc will just be marth vs peach again. maybe peach vs sheik. i can't really see why ntsc would really change the matchup in the finals at all. maybe kas will play more fox and we'll see fox in every final, that could happen sure, but i don't see a jiggs falcon rise when the characters that counter them are BETTER in ntsc.

what we really need is for bryce and SD to make it to finals so we can finally see an ICs ditto in grand finals.

ACTUALLY - Falcon IS in fact changed from NTSC to Pal. NTSC nair has more knockback, which makes it far superior in terms of comboing - it doesn't sound much but it is a huge buff. Also falcon's jab cancel is much harder to do in NTSC. I think he may also have a slightly faster ground speed but don't quote me on that.

@ Dif: The MU is changed regardless of where you are in the bracket. Take a look at Amsash (Sheik) vs Armada (Peach). Armada consistently wins the MU in Europe, put them in NTSC and Amsah wins. Why? The grab game COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the MU and puts it heavily in Sheik's favour. This is particularly so due to the fact that Peach has EXTREME difficulty preventing Sheik's shield grab with any sort of pressure. Also Mango does play Sheik, it's his backup character used mainly for Ganon nowdays.

Anyway, it isn't always Marth vs Peach, I barely use Marth vs Cao in Sydney finals anymore, I go with spacies and the occassional CF. There can still be variety, even in NTSC. Look at some of the top players emerging in the USA. Axe - Pika, Linguini/Kage - Ganon, KA-Master - Luigi, Shroomed/HMW - Doc, Fly Amanita - IC's, DJ Nintendo - Bowser, Samus, Mario etc, just to name a few. Like KK said the main reason we can get away with character diversity here is a lower mean skill level rather than the dominance of top tiers.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Indeed its more of a player skill factor that there aren't enough jiggs/falcon's etc in finals, although the last lansmash ended in a falcon vs d.k match. Instead of forcing NTSC onto the scene you should try have a couple small practice tourneys, nothing major. Maybe at n2c or something... I'll have one in april when the house is empty for 10 days.. 10 days.. OMG.. 10 DAYS OMGODKHSDFGNOSDHLK#ETHINHDTIULHSKIGN

 

[Dekar289]

i'm in finals every month against cao usually fyi
just doesn't matter whether i play jiggs or marth

also pants, syke, as SD said, just because a character hasn't had any changes doesn't change the fact that the character's MUs have changed.

 

[EverAlert]

Bah, I can't keep up with this thread anymore. @_@

Anyway CAO/S.D/Deks are right n stuff. ._.

 

[Toby.]

@ Luke_atyeo, this is simplifying it too far. First of all the point you'd be making with the fire and ice comparison would havef to be termed like this in order to be correct "fire is hotter than ice" therefore "ice is less hot than fire" - you don't introduce new parameters when drawing conclusions - this is bad science.
If two people who know nothing about NTSC play NTSC as Sheik, neither will be prepared for the alterations in the moves - no seasoned NTSC veteran is necessary to alter the performance of the new-comer(s) to NTSC - they are non-related factors and so are listed as such.

Actually I think the bad science came when you claimed that Factors A and B were didn't require each other. Factor A is meaningless without factor B. Factor A essentially means "people who know about NTSC will be better at it than people who don't know anything about it."

Let's broaden that bit of logic and never have melee at brawl tournaments because the melee players know more about it than the brawl players (<3 MELEE)

The value of Factor A is derived from Factor B and vice versa- each is only considered bad because of the other one.

It's pretty obvious when you expand one of them. Let's expand the logic on Factor B.

STORY TIME EVERYONE

Hi, my name is Toby Harrison Ford and I like playing video games!

I'm a new-comer to NTSC and don't know anything about followups, etc. Is this a bad thing? Not really...I would expect to be shaky at a version of melee that I don't play. I'm having lots of fun playing all my friends who also dont know anything about NTSC, even though we played PAL melee for about a million years.

Oh look: S.D is hosting weekly tournaments with NTSC melee instead! He's getting lots of free money, but I don't mind because he's so handsome and I'm starting to think that it's pretty unfair (bad!) because he suddenly has a massive advantage from knowing about NTSC. It's not just unfun; he has an unfair advantage. It's like the a weapons dealer coming in and saying that all fencing competitions have to be use pistols instead of swords.

Everything was fine until somebody (S.D) came into the equation who could take advantage of knowing about the game (lol) in order to gain a distinct advantage.

So hopefully my amazing story showed why the judgement of factor B (that it is bad) as true can only be verified when factor A (players getting an advantage from knowing about the game) is there.

Otherwise it's only bad because you aren't as good at the game anymore, which is even more subjective than saying something is bad because a person who knows about the game will win more often.


Wow I can't believe I bothered typing that..

And for the record correcting luke because he said colder instead of less hot was a bit eh :/

Oh and the tone of my post isn't intended to attack or condescend. I just post that was sometimes because I find it more interesting.

P.S also using different things in your examples for factors a and B didn't hide the fact that you were talking about the same core principles. B was they will be bad at playing the game. A was the opposite. You just listed different things like DI...or did you really mean that factor B people won't know about DI, but neither would factor A?

IT'S ALL GOOD FUN EVERYONE, RELAX.

 

[Surgi]

ACTUALLY - Falcon IS in fact changed from NTSC to Pal. NTSC nair has more knockback, which makes it far superior in terms of comboing - it doesn't sound much but it is a huge buff. Also falcon's jab cancel is much harder to do in NTSC. I think he may also have a slightly faster ground speed but don't quote me on that.

Oh, My bad I did not know about the jab cancel on C.Falcon, but still my point stands, NTSC doesn't make top tiers immortal and low tiers scum, it slightly changes the style of play of a couple of characters. The game is still the same. The high tiers are still high, the low still low and all the tech skills are still the same.

Indeed its more of a player skill factor that there aren't enough jiggs/falcon's etc in finals, although the last lansmash ended in a falcon vs d.k match. Instead of forcing NTSC onto the scene you should try have a couple small practice tourneys, nothing major. Maybe at n2c or something... I'll have one in april when the house is empty for 10 days.. 10 days.. OMG.. 10 DAYS OMGODKHSDFGNOSDHLK#ETHINHDTIULHSKIGN

Lol thank you Syke for agreeing on the minitourneys point ^^ but n2c is too costly maybe just switch a monthly over as a trial run?

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Oh, My bad I did not know about the jab cancel on C.Falcon, but still my point stands, NTSC doesn't make top tiers immortal and low tiers scum, it slightly changes the style of play of a couple of characters. The game is still the same. The high tiers are still high, the low still low and all the tech skills are still the same.

On the contrary, and this is what shaz is trying to say as well. Playing NTSC will only benefit the higher ranked players because they use higher teir characters and know their characters better. I dont why there is suddenly a giant zerg rush to play NTSC.. is it because you think you'll do better? No.. you'll still lose to dave/kas so just stick with PAL and stop being so ****.

 

[Dekar289]

k syke
this monthly i will beat cao with fox
in ntsc version
in a set
maybe

 

[S.D]

k syke
this monthly i will beat cao with fox
in ntsc version
in a set
maybe

Gl, I don't really see it <3

@ Toby: You didn't need to cross out the part about S.D being handsome.

 

[Surgi]

On the contrary, and this is what shaz is trying to say as well. Playing NTSC will only benefit the higher ranked players because they use higher teir characters and know their characters better. I dont why there is suddenly a giant zerg rush to play NTSC.. is it because you think you'll do better? No.. you'll still lose to dave/kas so just stick with PAL and stop being so ****.

Oh no Syke I was not talking about Players, merely characters. It isn't like the best players use the top tiers and theworse players use bottom, its a matter of skill.

Of course ill still lose to kas/cao (and so will probs everyone) because they are just simply better at the game but I was simply reffering to the character changes. Syke does make a good point that we shouldn't all rush and think "yay ntsc we can be like america!" but I don't think that not trying will be as productive as trial and error.

 

[Dekar289]

Gl, I don't really see it <3

this only makes me think about considering the possibility of practice MORE

if i win lottery and buy a house in melb would you move here

 

[S.D]

I voted ntsc

........


hi aussies =D

Hello <3 USA

 

[CAOTIC]

I play better in NTSC Dekar, lol. Ask SD!

Focks dun scurrr me!

 

[Jupz]

I use fox too so I prefer NSTC. Get at me

Seriously I never realised how amazing melee was until I got it

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

my foxy wubs daves peach <3

 

[tedeth]

My Ganon wubs NOTHING!!!!!!

*shakes fist*

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Sykes points are all very valid, and in line with my thoughts.

@ Toby - I appreciate what you're getting at, however your statement

The value of Factor A is derived from Factor B and vice versa- each is only considered bad because of the other one.

is erroneous as;
Factor A: As I mentioned doesn't require a new-comer to be in effect - the buffs will still exist.
Factor B: As I mentioned doesn't require an NTSC veteran to be in effect - the confusion will still exist.
Thus neither are co-dependant. Read back and check your reasoning

Additionally consider these pieces of information as food for thought:

Not all characters change in NTSC.
Some characters rely on combos more than others.
Some people are heavily dependant on one main character.

These are only a few things that will cause discrepencies.


@Surgi, you're very polar in your viewpoints also. I wonder if you've had enough experience in competition to know the difference between NTSC and PAL. Careful stating opinion as fact,especially without evidence, and especially in your position as you'll ruffle feathers further ><.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Completely pointless
T-down

 

[luke_atyeo]

And for the record correcting luke because he said colder instead of less hot was a bit eh :/

exactly, I said it implyed that it was colder, science or not its just common sense, and isnt colder another term for less hot anyway? either way colder or less hot, doesnt change the meaning of the sentence in anyway, as for your actual orginal point... I dont really have any input, I was just being a cheeky ******* anyway

 

[EverAlert]

It's spelled "implied", Luke.

Geez.

 

[luke_atyeo]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

how could I not ****ing know that?
should I even go to school!?

 

[Pantsmann]

actually, the term "colder" doesn't even exists as a physical statement <_< it really IS "less hot" but that's got nothing to do with this argument. EDIT: just ignore this part, it's just nitpicking because i'm a physicist and we do things like that.

i really don't see the point in making ntsc the standard (note, i just say standard, i'm all up for side tournies of NTSC just like everybody here) and i don't even remember if there was an argument saying why we should make it standard aparts from "it's new and exciting" but if you want new and exciting why not learn captain falcon? i think it would be much more exciting to have falcon dittos in grand finals than ntsc peach vs ntsc marth/fox

maybe cao should get a hold of a version 1.0 and just use bowser for an entire tournament =D i could see that working.

but yeah, why bother changing it to standard? if PAL is so bad wouldn't we (and europe) have already changed by now?

 

[EverAlert]

As far as logical reasoning goes, there isn't really much point. As stated earlier, the two versions aren't really blatantly different.

The issue is whether or not we want NTSC standardised because, well, we just like it more (the question in the poll).

Conversely, is there really anything more to the other side than just "it's tried and familiar"? The topic of balance is debatable - CAO (y'know, that guy with more NTSC experience than all of us) has already expressed how indifferent the top characters are despite various differences. In reality the same people are going to be winning and losing regardless. Newcomers more than likely won't even notice or care about differences, and veterans should be able to adapt quickly (since the changes affect more your ingame options, not the required tech skill). Contrary to some claims the game speed does not change at all. So what up?

If anything, personally I'm able to have greater faith in advice and guides knowing it's written for the exact game I'm playing (NTSC). Not that there is much of a difference, as stated, but it's encouraging nonetheless.

It really is just a matter of preference, people should just man up and ask themselves which one they enjoy more.