captain mc cloud
Smash Apprentice
awsome guide, helped me alot thanks!
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Guide "Not to be Taken Orally" Doc Guide by Cyphus *Plus tutorial vid by SmashMac*
- Thread starter Cyphus
- Start date
DrGrimReaper
Smash Apprentice
The guide is extremely awesome man! Just one clarification:
Why is Doc's recovery so bad? (no not philosophically why)
Between his mid-air jump, cape, down-b, and up-b, it seems like he has a pretty good recovery, or at least average. Not like, terrible though. Does anyone else find that odd?
I think it was just communally agreed that his recovery sucked (but at that time they only thought he could mid-air jump to up-b) and that no one has ever thought to re-assign its actual potential (meaning it would suck if someone didn't know or couldn't down-b fast enough to gain distance, and also wouldn't know when to cape / up-b / sweet spot ledges)
explain? ^_^
Why is Doc's recovery so bad? (no not philosophically why)
Between his mid-air jump, cape, down-b, and up-b, it seems like he has a pretty good recovery, or at least average. Not like, terrible though. Does anyone else find that odd?
I think it was just communally agreed that his recovery sucked (but at that time they only thought he could mid-air jump to up-b) and that no one has ever thought to re-assign its actual potential (meaning it would suck if someone didn't know or couldn't down-b fast enough to gain distance, and also wouldn't know when to cape / up-b / sweet spot ledges)
explain? ^_^
ConsonantQ
Smash Rookie
good job, i really liked the guide. you helped add that little touch to make my doc better with pillrush and spam. haha
guesswho
Smash Cadet
you would think so but unlike marios cape that brings slightly up when recoverying after docs first cape your screwd ,the rest have no effect. better save your jump because his down b brings you straight down if you dont have a mid air jump left to use. i was pissed when i finnally realized that, but i stil kick *** with doc. Holla back.
DrGrimReaper
Smash Apprentice
I wasn't necc. asking how to recover, I was just asking why it's unanimously agreed that Doc's recovery sucks. I think that it should be unanimous that his recovery is hard to execute, but overall if executed correctly, perhaps his recovery should be more than just 'horrible' as many people say it is.
guesswho
Smash Cadet
oh oops i cant read lmao
guesswho
Smash Cadet
naw it sucks lol just give in to the peer pressure and agree with your fellow smashers. they wont hurt you. they are your friends, Have a beer. wait im not 21. wheres this conversation going. see what you did Dr. Grim Reaper. I apologize i gave him a beer and then made him play ssbm with me. i didnt know that was illegal. he fell of the edge fo pokemon stadium by himself all i did was facon punch him at 10% WHyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Meeeeeeeeeeeeee !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
random rants from guesswho
random rants from guesswho
Been a while since I've posted in the Doc boards...
Doc has bad recovery because his recovery is pretty easy to edge guard and there's not much room for recovering. Yeah, there's a lot of things he can do to recover, but lets look at the quality of recovering. The cape= not really a help at all. Actually, I'm not even sure if it helps. The downb= a little helpful even if you can do the ptp...which most people can't. Doc's jump isn't all that great, and his upb also isn't that great. Therefore, he has bad recovery.
If you want me to explain more, I'll do a comparison of how his recovery is bad.
Doc has bad recovery because his recovery is pretty easy to edge guard and there's not much room for recovering. Yeah, there's a lot of things he can do to recover, but lets look at the quality of recovering. The cape= not really a help at all. Actually, I'm not even sure if it helps. The downb= a little helpful even if you can do the ptp...which most people can't. Doc's jump isn't all that great, and his upb also isn't that great. Therefore, he has bad recovery.
If you want me to explain more, I'll do a comparison of how his recovery is bad.
DrGrimReaper
Smash Apprentice
please do! i think my skepticism is partly because i've never had to deal w/someone who could edgeguard (well.) so his recovery doesn't seem that bad to me. Plus most of the vid I saw of Doc the person playing him almost always recovered w/ little to no resistance from his opponent's edgeguarding attempt, or they just let their doc fall cozthey saw they wer too far away from the edge.
comparisons would be good though!
comparisons would be good though!
Umm... ****, didn't think I'd have to do this. Well, here goes (my attempt :-/).
Samus has one of the best recoveries. She can get back to the stage in many ways, and each one is very useful (bomb jumping = very useful, the grapple = covers all vertical distance she may need to get, and let's not forget she has the upb which is really good to get back on the stage). Basically, it's pretty easy for Samus to get back to the stage. With Doc, however, he just has a few things that can help him get back to the stage and they don't really help him all that much (like I said earlier).
*searches for vid vs sheik* http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Z3hnqeD4NU
Watch that match and you'll understand.. I hope. Look at the difference for recovery and the way the sheik edgeguards... there's your answer.
Samus has one of the best recoveries. She can get back to the stage in many ways, and each one is very useful (bomb jumping = very useful, the grapple = covers all vertical distance she may need to get, and let's not forget she has the upb which is really good to get back on the stage). Basically, it's pretty easy for Samus to get back to the stage. With Doc, however, he just has a few things that can help him get back to the stage and they don't really help him all that much (like I said earlier).
*searches for vid vs sheik* http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Z3hnqeD4NU
Watch that match and you'll understand.. I hope. Look at the difference for recovery and the way the sheik edgeguards... there's your answer.
I think I can add 10 cents to this and help, cause I understand.
Going off of the Samus vs Doc recovery.
Samus can obviously bomb jump, and obviously grapple. Both of these change the speed in which samus can return. They also let her hang a long away from the edge and zip in if she needs to (to avoid off-the-edge guards).
Lets not forget she can normally make it back with her jump and up+b alone, which help to strengthen her recovery.
THEN on top of that, she can protect herself with chargeshots (or wall-jump chargeshot, a samus favorite), sex kicks, and probably other stuff.
__
Doc, on the other hand, has no real choice but to constatly move forward towards the ledge. Sure he has the tornado, but that's NORMALLY just to break momentum, or to stall a little bit. To get any real distance, you have to do the Perfect Tornado, and even then it's not great distance, maybe 1 character high. And horizontal distance? Not enough to write home about.
Even Doc's cape really isnt that great, if you think about it. You dont even get vertical from it, you just gain a LITTLE horizontal, Again, another weak move that stalls, but it's not enough to give you options.
And then, while actually recovering, the only REAL options doc has to protect himself are
pills, which are generally unsafe in this position
d.air, that only works when YOU come in high
u.air, which is dangerous enough
and b.air, which would be your best option, if you didnt have to put yourself in a position to where you're not facing the ledge (i.e. capeing backwards).
___
So all in all, although doc has many "extra jumps", none of them actually have enough worthwhile variety to make for a good recovery.
So I think (and believe) that's what SPAWN means when he says "Doc has a bad recovery"
Cause he does IMO too.
Going off of the Samus vs Doc recovery.
Samus can obviously bomb jump, and obviously grapple. Both of these change the speed in which samus can return. They also let her hang a long away from the edge and zip in if she needs to (to avoid off-the-edge guards).
Lets not forget she can normally make it back with her jump and up+b alone, which help to strengthen her recovery.
THEN on top of that, she can protect herself with chargeshots (or wall-jump chargeshot, a samus favorite), sex kicks, and probably other stuff.
__
Doc, on the other hand, has no real choice but to constatly move forward towards the ledge. Sure he has the tornado, but that's NORMALLY just to break momentum, or to stall a little bit. To get any real distance, you have to do the Perfect Tornado, and even then it's not great distance, maybe 1 character high. And horizontal distance? Not enough to write home about.
Even Doc's cape really isnt that great, if you think about it. You dont even get vertical from it, you just gain a LITTLE horizontal, Again, another weak move that stalls, but it's not enough to give you options.
And then, while actually recovering, the only REAL options doc has to protect himself are
pills, which are generally unsafe in this position
d.air, that only works when YOU come in high
u.air, which is dangerous enough
and b.air, which would be your best option, if you didnt have to put yourself in a position to where you're not facing the ledge (i.e. capeing backwards).
___
So all in all, although doc has many "extra jumps", none of them actually have enough worthwhile variety to make for a good recovery.
So I think (and believe) that's what SPAWN means when he says "Doc has a bad recovery"
Cause he does IMO too.
@ not having rep anymore.
doc's advanced recovery options are just tricks. Good players nowadays anticipate cape/tornado and simply edgehog a lil longer before pulling themselves up. Versus pill shields, b.airs and sex kicks easily blast right through them and push doc even further away.
His jelly-bean like body is simply very vulnerable and predictable since he moves very slowly in he air.
His jelly-bean like body is simply very vulnerable and predictable since he moves very slowly in he air.
GUSTAVO PINGPONG
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2007
- Messages
- 4
Great Guide
WOW THIS WAS A VERY USEFUL GUIDE ESPECIALLY FOR A MEDIUM SKILL PLAYER LIKE ME (I THOUGHT I WAS A PRO UNTIL I SAW PEOPLE LIKE YOU) AND THE VIDEO PART WAS ESSENTIAL IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU WRE TALKING ABOUT. THE ONLY THING I DIDNT REAALLY UNDERSTOOD VERY WELL WAS WHAT IS a d.jump or a DJ. TAKE KARE KEEP DOING THINGS LIKE THIS.
WOW THIS WAS A VERY USEFUL GUIDE ESPECIALLY FOR A MEDIUM SKILL PLAYER LIKE ME (I THOUGHT I WAS A PRO UNTIL I SAW PEOPLE LIKE YOU) AND THE VIDEO PART WAS ESSENTIAL IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU WRE TALKING ABOUT. THE ONLY THING I DIDNT REAALLY UNDERSTOOD VERY WELL WAS WHAT IS a d.jump or a DJ. TAKE KARE KEEP DOING THINGS LIKE THIS.
Cyphus, you should tell people to read AlphaZealot's post on all of the terms found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749
ꓰspeon
Sun Pokemon
SH to bair to DJ to double bair WTF this is sexy (even sexier than the sex kick rofl)
Great guide indeed. Helped me on a few points (for the rest I've only got to practice more). ^^
Great guide indeed. Helped me on a few points (for the rest I've only got to practice more). ^^
jon playa
Smash Cadet
I have read this thread (or most of it) at work today.
Great work Cyphus. I'll look forward to playing you one day if you are ever in the OC!
Great work Cyphus. I'll look forward to playing you one day if you are ever in the OC!
Chained Up
Smash Cadet
Nice guide but I don't quite understand how to do the technique Take 2 and Call Me In The Morning. When I first jump and throw a pill I trying double jumping again but it doesn't work. Can you help me?
throw your pill as your jumping (early as possible)
if you throw the pill after you've reached max height...the lag (from throwing the pill) will last until you reach the ground again)
otherwise, doing it correctly, you can Double Jump before landing..or even airdodge your landing to wavedash-land to move in and out as you jump pill.
if you throw the pill after you've reached max height...the lag (from throwing the pill) will last until you reach the ground again)
otherwise, doing it correctly, you can Double Jump before landing..or even airdodge your landing to wavedash-land to move in and out as you jump pill.
Dr.ROC
Smash Apprentice
I gotta question, when u have just been knocked off the stage, when is the best time to use the down b, immediatley, or later after DIing and getting closer to the stage?
SmashMac
Smash Lord
Well, DI first. DI'ing is the most important part to any recovery, but inparticularly Doc's recovery. After the DI, that's when you do the PTP to gain horizonal and vertical distance towards the stage.
-=Demonic_Disaster=-
Smash Apprentice
omg nice guide just playing doc
bigNscary_pills
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1
This guide is sweet.
Marilink
Smash Journeyman
Hey Cyphus, I've been watching a couple of your matches on Youtube (by suggestion of my friend Omegared). I was surprised to see you posted here, and now I'm really glad. Great guide.
Two things I could use help with though (anyone can answer):
While pillrushing, is there any preferable distance to stay behind?
and
I'm not very good at DI and I'm not sure how to improve, exactly. My prediction isn't the greatest because I'm usually too caught up in my own offense to know when the opponent is gonna hit me. (yeah, I'm still working on it.)
Thanks.
Two things I could use help with though (anyone can answer):
While pillrushing, is there any preferable distance to stay behind?
and
I'm not very good at DI and I'm not sure how to improve, exactly. My prediction isn't the greatest because I'm usually too caught up in my own offense to know when the opponent is gonna hit me. (yeah, I'm still working on it.)
Thanks.
ProNoob
Smash Cadet
Great guide!
I read it, and it persuaded me to try Dr. Mario.
I read it, and it persuaded me to try Dr. Mario.
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
I wanted to add some things to the Captain Falcon match-up:
1. I'm going to have to disagree with restraining from using Uptilt in this match-up. As a matter of fact, I highly recommend. Now, of course, that doesn't mean spam, but it completely overwhelms his priority on his Nair and does well against his Dair and you even have a good chance of not exchanging hits with his Fair if you time it right. Not only does it make his SHFFL advances shakey, but if you do hit him with it chances are you just knocked him into the air for a Fair at higher percents or Bair to hopefully start an edgeguard/hog game.
2. Also, you should be weary of Captain Falcon waiting for you to Bair and the air dodging past you and on to the stage. Boy, I learned that the hard way. It will flip the game around much faster than you'd think, so, as Cyphus said, feints are you friend when edge guarding Captain Falcon.
That is all.
EDIT: Also, on the Up tilting his SHFFLs, if you can see them coming, a very quick WD forward and Up Tilt is the absolute best because that should put you slightly under him and giving him a not-so-advantageous angle.
1. I'm going to have to disagree with restraining from using Uptilt in this match-up. As a matter of fact, I highly recommend. Now, of course, that doesn't mean spam, but it completely overwhelms his priority on his Nair and does well against his Dair and you even have a good chance of not exchanging hits with his Fair if you time it right. Not only does it make his SHFFL advances shakey, but if you do hit him with it chances are you just knocked him into the air for a Fair at higher percents or Bair to hopefully start an edgeguard/hog game.
2. Also, you should be weary of Captain Falcon waiting for you to Bair and the air dodging past you and on to the stage. Boy, I learned that the hard way. It will flip the game around much faster than you'd think, so, as Cyphus said, feints are you friend when edge guarding Captain Falcon.
That is all.
EDIT: Also, on the Up tilting his SHFFLs, if you can see them coming, a very quick WD forward and Up Tilt is the absolute best because that should put you slightly under him and giving him a not-so-advantageous angle.
GLCH
Smash Apprentice
Sweet guide.. Doc pwns..
Taka-San
Smash Cadet
wow i really think u didnt miss anything 0_0 thats scary but great guide i learned some stuff from this
onii-chan
Smash Ace
this is an awesome guide...all ppl should appericate this as i did....it also helped me beat some of the best samuses i kno in houston thnx dude!
Roxor
Smash Rookie
WOW, i learnt SOOOOOOOO much from reading your guide, i've been playing doc ever since i got this game, and i've been having trouble playing those high tiers, but hopefully your tips'll help!
Purple_Haze
Smash Cadet
Good guide, but some of the cons are interesting. I've played the Doc, well, ever since the game came out.
And personally I think he has one of the best reaches in the game. Like he could be SO far away and yet pull of a reach to the stage. Also the Falco laser, just cape it, even if he's right in front of you, cause then Falco himself will get turned around and you could pull of a foward smash. And these are just my opinions.
But again, great guide.!
jab-jab-up.b.cancel-fair-death.
And personally I think he has one of the best reaches in the game. Like he could be SO far away and yet pull of a reach to the stage. Also the Falco laser, just cape it, even if he's right in front of you, cause then Falco himself will get turned around and you could pull of a foward smash. And these are just my opinions.
But again, great guide.!
jab-jab-up.b.cancel-fair-death.
Roman.
Smash Champion
i've only been able to connect upb cancel with fair against fox and it's not at high enough % to kill unless you're like off the stage
otg
Smash Master
lol at the idea that you can combo out of UpB cancel.
/10uselesstech
/10uselesstech
