Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

[Pr0phetic]

Pierce I don't see Diddy surpassing him 0.o Maybe Wario because he's placing more fluently and improving, but Diddy has really gained much ground since last time. I still think he'll be one below Marth.

Falco and GnW are definitely dropping

 

[hippiedude92]

Nah, he needs to fall. Ness is better then him, and I'd say the same about Sonic.

And he doesn't have the best air combos. Wario, Luigi, Squirtle: they all do it better.

You must be kidding right? Mario wrecks most, if not "all" of low tiers. He beats out Ness lol. I think we listed it, 5/5. Personally imo, it's like 55:45 or 6/4 because I like bashing Ness mains about their recovering Oh and Mario has just about either to same or somewhat similar air combos to luigi >.>

What?

Diddy vs. Oli is even, Diddy vs. Jiggs definitely isn't in Jiggs' favour.

Luigi is like 55:45 against Diddy's favor if that, that's not a really bad matchup. Same thing with Marth, who was thought to be 6:4 but arguably is changing to 55:45 or even. MK vs. Diddy is the same as MK vs. Wario. His worst matchup is probably Peach, who isn't that commonly played.

Again, both characters don't have many disadvantageous matchups, and the ones they do have are very slight. They both don't have matchups worse than 6:4.

Diddy will either stay or move up one, same with Wario. They both have pretty much near even matchups across the (viable) board. Them and Pikachu are going to go up, while Lucario and Falco are both probably going to go down.

Um. Luigi is like solid hard counter to Diddy. Even ADHD says he hates the matchup and somewhat has a hard time with it from what I heard. Though i dont know which luigis give him a hard time but meh lol.

it's like 6/4 in luigi's favor.
like 55:45 with bananas / FD and probably camping all together lol

I know you did the Martha on purpose, but its old and stupid.

lol @ marth. there goes my hopes in using marth as a cp for mk

 

[Kamikaze*]

I agree with Pierce7d.

I think that GW is going down.
Not because he isn't a good character, because he isn't very popular. That in turn doesn't give him really good tournament results.

Agreed. he should also go down because his metagame is probably done developing.

 

[Deathcarter]

I think there's a chance Falco may drop below Marth as well.

Too many bad match-ups

If I recall correctly, all of those bad matchups are in the high tier. Falco does rather well against the Top Tiers in general on the other hand; I beleive that will warrent him a place over Marth and Game and Watch.

(Yes, Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Kirby are viable, but they will NEVER be as common in tournaments as MK, Snake, DDD, Diddy.)

 

[Rawnie]

If I recall correctly, all of those bad matchups are in the high tier. Falco does rather well against the Top Tiers in general on the other hand; I beleive that will warrent him a place over Marth and Game and Watch.

(Yes, Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Kirby are viable, but they will NEVER be as common in tournaments as MK, Snake, DDD, Diddy.)

He loses to Marth and Game & Watch. Top tiers. Not sure about how Falco does against Wario. Though high tiers aren't as common, I still think Marth has the better match-ups. Having 3 counters = bad. Still debatable between Marth/Falco's position.

Posting because I'm bored, but I did actually put some thought into this one.

S
Meta Knight
Snake

A
D3
Wario/Diddy <-----Can't decide here.
Marth/Falco
Game & Watch

B
Olimar
Pikachu
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Kirby
R.O.B
Zelda/Sheik
DK
Zero Suit Samus

C
Peach
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf
Luigi
Sheik
Zelda
Bowser
Fox
Ike

D
Yoshi
Sonic
Ness
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Lucas
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link

E
Ganon/Falcon <----Does it matter? Srsly?

 

[Rajam]

My bets:
Wario up
Falco down
Game and Watch down
Ice Climbers up
Lucario down
DK down a lot (more than 3 places)
Zero Suit Samus up a lot (>3 places)
Fox down
Diddy up
Samus down
Ganondorf bottom
Captain Falcon up
Sonic up (maybe a lot)
Pikachu up a lot (good matchups vs high tiers like Snake and Dedede)
Olimar up
ROB down
Bowser down
Pit down
Wolf down (maybe a lot)
Luigi up
Kirby down
Zelda down

Im not sure about the others

 

[KRDsonic]

I personally think Falcon will rise above Ganon, no doubt. If not on the tier list, it's still been like that in my mind. Ganon's matchups are just... terrible, and Falcon's aren't too bad.

Then again, the two characters I use the most have a 100-0 and a 95-5 matchup against Ganon...

 

[goodkid]

You might want to back up your statements before someone accuses you of being inexperienced or unintelligent for posting one liners that don't exactly have merit in the way you said it.

That being said, I'll counter your argument. Why exactly should they be grouped together? They are two distinct characters that each own different techniques, playstyles, match-ups, advantages, and disadvantages. If you like to switch between the two characters, that's fine, all you have to realize is that you are in "THIS" position on the tier list when playing with Zelda and "THIS" position on the tier list when playing as Sheik. However, tier lists shouldn't matter. If you feel that Sheik is better at a certain match-up, than you change to her, and vice versa.

Just because you can counterpick mid-match doesn't mean that the characters should be grouped as one single entity in competitive Brawl.

Although Zelda and Sheik are two separate characters, they have the unique ability of counter-picking mid-match, which in turn gives them a better position on the tier list that would not be possible solo. This can be said for Pokemon Trainer. Pokemon Trainer is a collection of three distinct pokemon, but separate their position would be different. Squirtle is assumed to be a better character than Ivysaur and Charizard. Squirtle could potentially be a high-mid tier character, leaving Ivysaur and Charizard in the low ranks. The unique quality of PT is that knowledge of all three pokemon is imperative to perform @ the highest levels of play. Each pokemon tires out if played for too long. If Squirtle was used solely in a match, he would not perform as well if all three pokemon were used.

This can now be said for Zelda/Sheik. They lack tournament results, and when played discretely they cannot execute as well together. In certain cases Zelda may be a better choice in a said match-up, while Sheik may just be horrid. Other cases may give Sheik better tools to handle a match-up(MK, Snake) than Zelda can do by herself. There are also cases were a player may just choose to use Sheik for damage and Zelda for the KO. What do you say about players who use combine both of their individual strengths/weaknesses together? When played jointly they're not seperate anymore.

 

[demonictoonlink]

^
This post is too full of win ^^

 

[smashkng]

Falcon's matchups aren't too bad.

Falcon has NO ADVANTAGE matchups, he has too much trouble approaching because most of his attacks are slow with extremely low priority, especially his ground attacks. Matchups like 30/70 are still very bad. While his matchups are not so impossible like Ganon's, they are still terrible.

 

[Deathcarter]

He loses to Marth and Game & Watch. Top tiers. Not sure about how Falco does against Wario. Though high tiers aren't as common, I still think Marth has the better match-ups. Having 3 counters = bad. Still debatable between Marth/Falco's position.

Posting because I'm bored, but I did actually put some thought into this one.

list

I take Hylians word that the G&W/Falco matchup is not that bad (I know you didn't claim so). I agree about the Marth matchup though. Falco does counter DDD, a much more influental character than G&W (whom Marth counters), and has nothing to indicate that any of his other top tier matchups, sans Marth, are any worse than 45:55 in his disadvantage. Marth simply does better against Diddy, Wario, Falco, himself, and G&W though.

So it would be Falco's top 3 matchups and ZSS mainly vs. Marth's matchups against the rest of top, most of high tier, and most of mid tier. I would give the slight edge to Marth when you look at the sheer number of characters he beats.



As far as your list goes, it is quite conservative in the lower half. I have a feeling that the SBR tier list will be more drastic than that list in that area, though it is not bad by any means.

 

[JayBee]

going up:
IC's
Wario
Luigi
Pikachu
Sonic
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Shiek
Pit

going down:
GaW
Zss
Fox
Mario
Bowser
Ness
Falco
Lucario
Zelda
ROB
Kirby

Key characters staying where they are for the most part:
Marth
Link
Olimar
Ganon
Lucus
Snake
MK
DDD
Wolf
Ike
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Samus

THE TOP/ HIGH

Despite Apex, MK is clearly the most dominant character still. with snake behind him, but the development of another character changes the metagame regardless.
The top of the list makes the most major changes with IC's proving thier abilities pitted againt even MK, with strong defensive setups and high damage chaingrabs. though requires more technical skill, IC's threaten to take a spot in B, or even A tier. DDD will probably rise slightly as Falco and possibly GaW lose to his more dominating results in tourneys, despite having good MU's against him. Marth is fine where he is, if only dropped slightly to make room for the newcomers. Wario also has a chance to progress into A tier.


MID

Rob will drop, as the meta explores and discovers even more ways to make his weaknesses even more detrimental. Lucario may also see a drop as the rise in the metas of characters like Ice Climbers and Pikachu threaten to eclipse his own, Marth , DK, and Diddy Kong's games are still strong despite other characters advancements, however they probably won't move up any time soon. right now, they are at the peak of thier potential. with all this going on, kirby gets a little left behind; his metagame hasn't advanced much compared to the others, and though he is solid he takes a small drop in rankings.

D-tier and below

Pit and Peach move up as Zero Suit goes down, and along with wolf. sink into E tier. Sonic probably makes one of the larger jumps this time around, and gets one of the opening spots behind peach, as does luigi. Pokemon Trainer and Yoshi battle for Sonic's vacant spot, and Shiek's still developing game brings her upwars, but only as high E-tier, but this character, like sonic, has the potential to move up a tier by the fall. zelda probably makes one of the worst drops, and will most likely get sent in F tier, or bottom E tier. Mario may make a slight jump, but nothing significant in the last months justifies him going up a tier. Other than Ness dropping a slot or two more, and Jiggs getting some respect and passing LInk and possibly getting into F tier, the bottom of the barrel stays intact. Sorry Ganon.

 

[demonictoonlink]

TL will probably be moving up on the next list...
We got this ^^

 

[Deathcarter]

THE TOP/ HIGH

Despite Apex, MK is clearly the most dominant character still. with snake behind him, but the development of another character changes the metagame regardless.
The top of the list makes the most major changes with IC's proving thier abilities pitted againt even MK, with strong defensive setups and high damage chaingrabs. though requires more technical skill, IC's threaten to take a spot in B, or even A tier. DDD will probably rise slightly as Falco and possibly GaW lose to his more dominating results in tourneys, despite having good MU's against him. Marth is fine where he is, if only dropped slightly to make room for the newcomers. Wario also has a chance to progress into A tier.

You are right in DDD moving up, but how do matchups against him account for him moving above Falco and G&W in the grand scheme of things? DDD has the only advantageuos matchup with Snake, makes all but like 5 characters in E tier and below unviable, and is perhaps the only character MK cannot reliably gimp (other than another MK).

MID

Rob will drop, as the meta explores and discovers even more ways to make his weaknesses even more detrimental. Lucario may also see a drop as the rise in the metas of characters like Ice Climbers and Pikachu threaten to eclipse his own, Marth , DK, and Diddy Kong's games are still strong despite other characters advancements, however they probably won't move up any time soon. right now, they are at the peak of thier potential. with all this going on, kirby gets a little left behind; his metagame hasn't advanced much compared to the others, and though he is solid he takes a small drop in rankings.

First of all, B through C tier are high tier, not mid. And even if high tier was just the A tier, you listed Diddy Kong and Marth in this section o_0.

With that aside, you are right about Pikachu and Ice Climbers, but R.O.B. is still solid against everyone other than MK (and ZSS), so only those two and Olimar look to pass him anytime soon. Agrees with the rest of it.

D-tier and below

Pit and Peach move up as Zero Suit goes down, and along with wolf. sink into E tier. Sonic probably makes one of the larger jumps this time around, and gets one of the opening spots behind peach, as does luigi. Pokemon Trainer and Yoshi battle for Sonic's vacant spot, and Shiek's still developing game brings her upwars, but only as high E-tier, but this character, like sonic, has the potential to move up a tier by the fall. zelda probably makes one of the worst drops, and will most likely get sent in F tier, or bottom E tier. Mario may make a slight jump, but nothing significant in the last months justifies him going up a tier. Other than Ness dropping a slot or two more, and Jiggs getting some respect and passing LInk and possibly getting into F tier, the bottom of the barrel stays intact. Sorry Ganon.

ZSS would move down? Scratch that, sink into E TIER!?! Why on earth would she move down if no one below her exhibits the potential to move above her? I will just let you in on something, according to Amazing Ampharos's data, ZSS is the only person in D tier or below to actually win a national tournament by herself. At worst, ZSS will remain at the top of mid tier; if she goes down, the SBR will prove that they are inept at making lists.

Sonic is in NO WAY good enough to make it to bottom of D tier. Just to let you know, the prominent Sonic board members are, at the very best, arguing for him to pass Ike. Not one of the more well known Sonic boarders are claiming him to be that high.

Zelda in F tier is only slightly less ridiculous than Sonic in D tier.

Mario is at the TOP of F tier. How on Earth could he jump while staying in the same tier?

You do realize Samus exists in Brawl right?



Just some things I wanted to point out.

 

[KRDsonic]

Falcon has NO ADVANTAGE matchups, he has too much trouble approaching because most of his attacks are slow with extremely low priority, especially his ground attacks. Matchups like 30/70 are still very bad. While his matchups are not so impossible like Ganon's, they are still terrible.

I never said his matchups were better than anyone else's... I just said he's better than Ganon is all. I was making a comparison of Falcon to Ganon, that was all, and yes, compared to Ganon's matchups, Falcon's aren't too bad.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Yep, Ganny has awful matchups. He deserves to be bottom this time.

 

[Hidden MachineS]

Falco will go down. Really, what Falco has placed well at a huge tourney? D3 still gets solid placings, so he should be 3rd, or maybe diddy will take his spot since he has good matchups against many high tier characters. Olimar and Wario will def. be above Marth IMO. Fox has seen a bit more representation, and so has Sonic. IC's too, and that's pretty much my speculated changes.

 

[Chileno4Live]

I think Marth is getting underestimated here. I think Marth should stay where he is, he's not moving up or down at all. Marth's pressure game shuts down some characters and his spacing o.o I think Falco, R.O.B and GaW will move down, Wario and Diddy will go up. Also, Luigi definitely needs to be higher in the tier list. At least C tier!! If someone has to move up in the Tier List, i'll pray for Fox. He has so many potential and i think he deserves a boost, maybe just for some motivation. He's not bad at all, just underestimated. (thnx Pikachu you little *****) IC's deserves to be A tier IMO, they are jsut that good... Though, a hard and long learning curve..

Sonic is awesome lol, but not to awesome to go up anytime soon. Cpt Falcon could rise, but not to much. Perhaps over Ganon. I also think that Olimar should go down, not by too much. I think he's a bit overestimated. You can easily gimp him offstage, and edgehoggers own him, his recovery just sucks. ZSS should stay where she is.

Also, i want to show my respect to the people who are trying to improve their character's metagame. Seriously, i like it when people do not main a character to just win. Winning is 1 thing, but helping out and advancing their character is just to good. I even have more respect to the people who main low tier characters like Fox and Lucas and so on. Sonic aswell!!

 

[Boofy!]

MK is going up

 

[shadowswithin]

sonic for C or B tier >.>

 

[Vermy]

Rise:
Marth
Diddy
Wario
Olimar
Pikachu
DK
Pit
Shiek
Lucas
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Link

Fall:
ROB
Kirby
Wolf
Bowser

Cbf posting reasons why.
Lets just go with
rise = improved tourney results, matchups and metagames and fall = opposite of previous statement.


PT rise ftw.

 

[Browny]

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

B Tier
Wario 11.47
R.O.B. 11.38
Lucario 10.94
Olimar 10.94

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34
Kirby 10.16
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88
Toon Link 8.47
Pit 8.44
Peach 8.16
Wolf 7.91

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

G Tier
Link 2.28
Jigglypuff 2.03
Ganondorf 1.88
Captain Falcon 1.63

Hmm its hard to judge... Like i think that DK should stay the same, definitely not drop. however people may move above him which will end up in a drop anyway

 

[Blistering Speed]

Most likely the most deserving is Pikachu, considering his very good statistics, matchups and new found amazing CG's which affect the very top of the tiers.

DeDeDe is due a drop if you're not an idiot who bases his opinions purely off tournament results.

Snake doesn't deserve second anymore, though I'm not sure to what extent he should drop.

Anyone who thinks MK is moving anywhere from 1st is ****ing ********. Then again, from what I've observed of this thread, near everyone doesn't know what they're talking about anyway.

Diddy will move up too, but it's temporary, he's a good character but enough people haven't got off their ***** and learned how to exploit his evident weaknesses.

 

[Frown]

Pikachu probably going up, yes.

Dedede can give more than half the cast 40% (dthrow + dthrow + dthrow + pummel + bthrow) through a single grab, heaviest character in the game (with DI) and ******** range. He stays up there.

Only MK is better than Snake. TILTS LOLOLOL NADES LOLOLOL

 

[Yuna]

I think Meta Knight might fall (or someone/some characters will rise). There will either be no more S Tier or Meta Knight will be joined by one or several characters in S Tier.

 

[Gindler]

Wario BETTER rise! He's way better than 8th.

I think Geedub is going to lose a few spots. maybe like 3

Snake and MK will probably be in S tier since they both have such ridiculous attributes.

Yoshi will probably rise, right above "joke character tier" is kinda low even for him.

Wolf will hopefully rise, quite a few people picked him up recently (myself included)/

 

[Nic64]

Not a prediction but I hope they stop this lettered tier nonsense -_-

 

[Browny]

why?

S is for snake tier
G is for God Ganon tier

it all makes sense

 

[xDD-Master]

and MK for MK Tier or what XD ?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You must be kidding right? Mario wrecks most, if not "all" of low tiers. He beats out Ness lol. I think we listed it, 5/5. Personally imo, it's like 55:45 or 6/4 because I like bashing Ness mains about their recovering Oh and Mario has just about either to same or somewhat similar air combos to luigi >.>

I was talking over all, not Mario VS Ness. You don't use one match-up to decide tier placement between those two characters. >_>

And I was refuting his claim that Mario has the best air combos. That leaves Wario and Squirtle still better at air combos then Mario, and I think Luigi's are better.

 

[Nic64]

why?

S is for snake tier
G is for God Ganon tier

it all makes sense

SS is for super saiyan tier?

*beat self over the head for awful joke*

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Letters for tiers are better, because then you don't have to decide on names and what they mean.

The only disadvantage of lettered tiers is if a game is so imbalanced that you actually have two S tiers, one above A and one below R.

 

[Nic64]

Yeah, because top and high tier are such ambiguous names that you have to think about so much

 

[Zankoku]

It gets troublesome when we run out of names and end up going God Tier, Top Tier, High Tier, Upper Tier, Middle Tier, Moderate Tier, Low Tier, Bottom Tier, Last Tier, Ganondorf Tier.

 

[Tennet]

I think we can expect a new tier list!

When there is so many categories Letters are better, but when you have 5 groups names seem better

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It gets troublesome when we run out of names and end up going God Tier, Top Tier, High Tier, Upper Tier, Middle Tier, Moderate Tier, Low Tier, Bottom Tier, Last Tier, Ganondorf Tier.

More like:

MK Tier
Snake Tier
Uber Tier
God Tier
Top Tier
Higher Tier
High Tier
Lower High Tier
Upper Middle Tier
Middle Tier
Lower Middle Tier
Steak Tier
Upper Low Tier
Low Tier
Lower Low Tier
Ever Lower Low Tier
Upper Bottom Tier
Bottom Tier
Lower Bottom Tier
What Happened to your Manliness Tier
Too Manly for this Game to Comprehend Correctly Tier

 

[TLMSheikant]

I think diddy, wario, pikachu, toon link, ice climbers and sheik will move up. Snake and mk will share the same tier. Falco will drop a little same with marth and DDD. And DK and ROB will drop.

 

[Kewkky]

Mindgames will be in C++ tier.

And kirby will stay where he is. ZSS will stay where she is. Snake will stay where he is. MK will probably lose his own tier but still be first. DDD will go above Falco. Diddy and Wario will go up. G&W will go down. Falco will go down. Marth will go up/stay the same... I don't remember any more high tiers.

 

[Nic64]

It gets troublesome when we run out of names and end up going God Tier, Top Tier, High Tier, Upper Tier, Middle Tier, Moderate Tier, Low Tier, Bottom Tier, Last Tier, Ganondorf Tier.

There really shouldn't need to be that many, then again, maybe we'll get something like this

SS: Meta Knight
S: Snake
A: King DeDeDe
B: Wario
C: Diddy
D: Marth
E: Game and Watch

etc.

 

[Tennet]

ZSS should be moved to P(ole) Tier.