Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

what does "not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" even mean? its not even a 3rd party lol

I know, right? Shulk is pretty much the same type of character as any of the FE characters, and Smash was already lousy with those.

For something to age like milk it inherently needs to make a statement about the future that ends up being wrong.

I'm sorry but...that's just not true. Your specificity about the statement is simply not it's popular usage. Any statement that ages badly or looks bad in hindsight can be said to have "aged like milk", regardless of whether it was true at the time. It's just the opposite of "aged like fine wine". Whether it predicts the future or not is irrelevant.

For example, a joke about the Queen of England dying before she actually died can be said to "age like milk" once she'd actually died. It didn't incorrectly predict her death. But it now seems like it's in poorer taste now that she's passed.

 

[FazDude]

I know I'm late to the party here, but...

"Mr. G&W slander"

Mr. Game & Watch is a really cool addition, and we need at least some Game & Watch representation seeing as it was one of Nintendo's first video game franchises. Would Assist Trophies work? Sure. However, the creativity of a concept like Mr. Game & Watch is something I really admire, and I like seeing retro characters be playable in general. Give me Sukapon, dammit.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think the "not the type of fighter that would usually appear in Smash bros" is referencing the fact that Shulk was a fairly big request in Japan, but he was pretty much not known outside from that. We know Sakurai is hesitant to add those type of characters. For example, Ayumi Tachibana was considered for Melee but dismissed for lack of Western presence, same with Takamaru in Smash 4. In Brawl Lucas was supposed to take Ness' spot, but when Sakurai discovered that Mother 3 would not get a western release, he add Ness back. Even Marth and Roy Sakurai was hesitant to add them in the North american release of Melee and Nintendo of America told him that they're fun addition so they kept them.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think the "not the type of fighter that would usually appear in Smash bros" is referencing the fact that Shulk was a fairly big request in Japan, but he was pretty much not known outside from that. We know Sakurai is hesitant to add those type of characters. For example, Ayumi Tachibana was considered for Melee but dismissed for lack of Western presence, same with Takamaru in Smash 4. In Brawl Lucas was supposed to take Ness' spot, but when Sakurai discovered that Mother 3 would not get a western release, he add Ness back. Even Marth and Roy Sakurai was hesitant to add them in the North american release of Melee and Nintendo of America told him that they're fun addition so they kept them.

Actually the reason why Lucas was scrapped from Melee was because of Mother 3's development schedule. By the time Lucas was finally added to Brawl, Sakurai had no idea that the game would be Japan only and personally expected the game to get an international release, and by the time he learned the truth it was far too late to cut Lucas as he had become too ingrained in the game by that point.

 

[Garteam]

This may be harsh, but I think it's probably for the better that Sakurai takes a "wait and see" approach for new franchises. People give Nintendo a lot of crap for only sticking to a handful of core franchises, but this wasn't true up until about the end of 2019 or so. Nintendo would introduce smaller, new IPs like Pushmo, Hotel Dusk, and Elite Beat Agents. The only problem is that the best that these franchises would get was a couple of entries across a handful of years before being abandoned. In this environment, I think it makes sense to avoid characters that represent then-new IPs, as blindly adding all of these characters in would likely result in a lot of choices that kind of age poorly. Jill from Drill Dozer is cool, but she'd be a bit out of place in Smash in 2024 given how obscure and forgotten her game is.

I'm assuming Sakurai was referring to this general pattern of not adding characters from new franchises immediately when discussing this above Shulk quote. Xenoblade Chronicles was a barely 2-year-old game that had just received a limited international release when Shulk was selected for Smash, which bucks this trend. Given that Shulk was unveiled in a Japan-only Nintendo Direct, I wonder if Sakurai was even aware of Xenoblade's North American release at the time Shulk was selected. I guess Sakurai just really liked the character and saw a lot of potential in him.

Also, getting this upset over someone's subjective judgment that a quote that is no longer representative of the present has aged poorly is kind of tacky. There're no hard and fast rules about what does and does not age poorly. It's all a matter of opinion.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

They're actually closer to Third Party than Xenoblade is.

Nintendo owns 100% of Monolith Soft so Xenoblade is completely Nintendo owned. However with Pokemon, they have to share it with Game Freak and Creatures Inc.

I dont think Monolith was a Nintendo studio when Xenoblade was first released. Which is what lead to the confusion.

I remember ironically saying Shulk was third party in conversation wiith people i knew IRL at the time because i knew it got a rise out of my brother. As he was the only one in said group who actually played it

 

[fogbadge]

This may be harsh, but I think it's probably for the better that Sakurai takes a "wait and see" approach for new franchises. People give Nintendo a lot of crap for only sticking to a handful of core franchises, but this wasn't true up until about the end of 2019 or so. Nintendo would introduce smaller, new IPs like Pushmo, Hotel Dusk, and Elite Beat Agents. The only problem is that the best that these franchises would get was a couple of entries across a handful of years before being abandoned. In this environment, I think it makes sense to avoid characters that represent then-new IPs, as blindly adding all of these characters in would likely result in a lot of choices that kind of age poorly. Jill from Drill Dozer is cool, but she'd be a bit out of place in Smash in 2024 given how obscure and forgotten her game is.

I'm assuming Sakurai was referring to this general pattern of not adding characters from new franchises immediately when discussing this above Shulk quote. Xenoblade Chronicles was a barely 2-year-old game that had just received a limited international release when Shulk was selected for Smash, which bucks this trend. Given that Shulk was unveiled in a Japan-only Nintendo Direct, I wonder if Sakurai was even aware of Xenoblade's North American release at the time Shulk was selected. I guess Sakurai just really liked the character and saw a lot of potential in him.

Also, getting this upset over someone's subjective judgment that a quote that is no longer representative of the present has aged poorly is kind of tacky. There're no hard and fast rules about what does and does not age poorly. It's all a matter of opinion.

hotel dusk wasn’t abandoned, the company that made them went bust. besides after the another code remakes they may very well want to do hotel dusk. as for pullblox well we all know intelligent systems put most of their effort in to fire emblem

 

[Hadokeyblade]

hotel dusk wasn’t abandoned, the company that made them went bust. besides after the another code remakes they may very well want to do hotel dusk. as for pullblox well we all know intelligent systems put most of their effort in to fire emblem

I hope that now that theyve done Detective club and another code ports they do one for hotel dusk and we get the strange set of Nintendo adventure games on modern stuff

 

[Wonder Smash]

Something I'll always remember is when Shulk was announced for Smash 4 on the old Miiverse site...

"not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" to me, always felt like a kinda sorta middle finger to IPs and characters like Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc

I just find it funny how he says this despite Shulk being the type of character that many people, including Sakurai himself, acknowledge fills up a lot of the roster; a sword character.

 

[fogbadge]

I hope that now that theyve done Detective club and another code ports they do one for hotel dusk and we get the strange set of Nintendo adventure games on modern stuff

remakes not ports

 

[Wonder Smash]

I dont think Monolith was a Nintendo studio when Xenoblade was first released. Which is what lead to the confusion.

I remember ironically saying Shulk was third party in conversation wiith people i knew IRL at the time because i knew it got a rise out of my brother. As he was the only one in said group who actually played it

Monolith Soft was owned by Nintendo by the time Xenoblade was released. A good couple of years at that.

 

[Perkilator]

With all the obscure franchises getting some kind of revival, it makes me hopeful that Nintendo will one day bring back Tomato Adventure even without AlphaDream.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Give me Sukapon, dammit.

Indefatiguably based

I really hope the chances of him getting in one day aren't completely dead, even if - realistically - the misplacing of JMF's documentation until 2007, coupled with Smash's shifting priorities, means it grows less and less likely with the day.

I just want my funny comedy fighting robot man

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I’m still hopeful for Another Treasure Island to get a modern remake, myself

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

If the next game brings in another character from a forgotten franchise I'd really like to finally see Mach Rider. His Melee trophy was randomly super hype, and he has a motorbike and machines guns and he can split into particles and regenerate himself and he'd have a Mad Max style stage. That's like super cool.
Sukapon, Muddy or the Sable Prince would also be great. I've missed a character of this kind in Ultimate, one of those old relics that get a strong reimagining and bring something truly unique to the table.

 

[RileyXY1]

If the next game brings in another character from a forgotten franchise I'd really like to finally see Mach Rider. His Melee trophy was randomly super hype, and he has a motorbike and machines guns and he can split into particles and regenerate himself and he'd have a Mad Max style stage. That's like super cool.
Sukapon, Muddy or the Sable Prince would also be great. I've missed a character of this kind in Ultimate, one of those old relics that get a strong reimagining and bring something truly unique to the table.

Lip from Panel de Pon and Saki from Sin and Punishment would also be good choices in this regard.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I'm assuming Sakurai was referring to this general pattern of not adding characters from new franchises immediately when discussing this above Shulk quote. Xenoblade Chronicles was a barely 2-year-old game that had just received a limited international release when Shulk was selected for Smash, which bucks this trend. Given that Shulk was unveiled in a Japan-only Nintendo Direct, I wonder if Sakurai was even aware of Xenoblade's North American release at the time Shulk was selected. I guess Sakurai just really liked the character and saw a lot of potential in him.

Also, getting this upset over someone's subjective judgment that a quote that is no longer representative of the present has aged poorly is kind of tacky. There're no hard and fast rules about what does and does not age poorly. It's all a matter of opinion.

My guess is that Sakurai might have been aware of Xenoblade X being in development too, which would make him more hopeful about Xenoblade future instead of it being a one off.

Man now that I think about it I'm so glad they decided to add Shulk in Smash 4. If he wasn't add this early, with Ultimate low amount of newcomers I don't think Shulk would have been add in base Ult, and if there was no Shulk, support for Xenoblade 2 rep would have been very fragmented between the people who still want Shulk and the people who want Rex or Pyra/Mythra, which ultimately could have hurt both characters. I think looking back into it Shulk might be my favorite base newcomer from Smash 4.

 

[JOJONumber691]

The most obligated character in Smash is Byleth.

You’re saying that as if we know for a fact when I admitted that I said Joker out of Bias. Also I’d 100% argue that is Corrin given Sakurai has outright admitted he was hesitant about adding Corrin to Smash. But again we have no clue about any characters who was “the Most Obligated” so you’re wrong and cringe.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You’re saying that as if we know for a fact

I do.

Also I’d 100% argue that is Corrin given Sakurai has outright admitted he was hesitant about adding Corrin to Smash.

And Byleth was just Corrin 2. Which makes the obligation double!

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I do.

And Byleth was just Corrin 2. Which makes the obligation double!

With the benefit of hindsight at least Byleth was a good choice for a character unlike Corrin.

Fates was not a good game while Three houses is one of the best games on Switch. So it kinda worked out in the end for Byleth

 

[Will]

there are some people who count Pokemon as third party

Then they’re wrong?

 

[fogbadge]

Then they’re wrong?

yes

 

[Louie G.]

With the benefit of hindsight at least Byleth was a good choice for a character unlike Corrin.

Fates was not a good game while Three houses is one of the best games on Switch. So it kinda worked out in the end for Byleth

I think my issue with Corrin or Byleth is precisely this gamble. Byleth is fortunate that Three Houses was a beloved and successful game, but planning and production on the character had to have started before their critical reception was known. In hindsight Byleth is a choice that made sense and aged gracefully, but in the moment they were banking on something abstract. You could argue the same of new Pokemon, and I wouldn't fault you if you had a problem with it there too, but that series has a bit more of a maintained status quo where it's pretty implausible that one generation will sink any more than another. I suppose I've seen people argue that Incineroar was a bit of a failure in a similar way, I disagree because they're so fun but they weren't as spot-on of a projection as Greninja in any case.

I guess to prevent myself from rambling, the bottom line is I do prefer Smash characters to establish some cred before given the greenlight. Had Byleth been swapped with Pyra / Mythra for example, and shown up in FP2, I think they still would have accomplished the goal of adding someone relatively current but with characters who have already established a strong name for themselves and a concrete Smash support base. For what it's worth, I don't hate (or love) Byleth but I think this method has especially shown its cracks with Corrin and I would rather they try to avoid this personally.

 

[Noipoi]

Assuming the next game has cuts, we just need to get rid of Corrin and the biggest mistake of 2016 will be rectified.

 

[DarthEnderX]

With the benefit of hindsight at least Byleth was a good choice for a character unlike Corrin.

Fates was not a good game while Three houses is one of the best games on Switch. So it kinda worked out in the end for Byleth

Always the issue with promotional characters. Their game might suck or everyone hates the character.

It's like when people started requesting EMMI or Nahobino before their games were even out. Like, play the damn game before requesting it's characters!

EMMI didn't even end up being the best character choice Dread had!

 

[Gorgonzales]

Going back to that brief Wonder Flower discussion we had earlier, what new items would you like to see?

The coconut gun would be cool to have as an item. Having a blaster-type weapon that launches heavy-hitting projectiles that follow the laws of gravity sounds really fun.

I'd like to see the Dedede Brooch too, in the form of an equipable item like the Screw Attack or the Franklin Badge. It protects you from losing a stock for a brief period of time; if you're launched into the blast zone, the brooch ejects you back out to give you a second chance, destroying itself in the process.

And for items in general, I hope that the power creep for them is toned down in the next game, becuase the power of items has only gone up over time to the point where a lot of the newer ones feel way too overtuned and not fun to play against.

 

[DarthEnderX]

what new items would you like to see?

Gradius Option and Super Crown.

 

[Louie G.]

EMMI didn't even end up being the best character choice Dread had!

Probably better equipped for an AT, but I'd actually dig the hell out of this. We really don't have a proper horror monster in Smash so trying to portray that feeling of "dread", its strange inhuman behavior and distinct movements would make for such a fascinating and unique character. I don't think it will happen, or Raven Beak for that matter, but I think there's a lot of potential there.

Raven Beak sorta writes himself, so I get that too. Although I've been a bit worn out on it seeing it on so many next Smash projections. Unfortunately if Zelda or Kirby can't get new supporting characters and villains phased in from its most recent outings, I don't see why Metroid would be any different.

 

[Noipoi]

Going back to that brief Wonder Flower discussion we had earlier, what new items would you like to see?

The coconut gun would be cool to have as an item. Having a blaster-type weapon that launches heavy-hitting projectiles that follow the laws of gravity sounds really fun.

I'd like to see the Dedede Brooch too, in the form of an equipable item like the Screw Attack or the Franklin Badge. It protects you from losing a stock for a brief period of time; if you're launched into the blast zone, the brooch ejects you back out to give you a second chance, destroying itself in the process.

And for items in general, I hope that the power creep for them is toned down in the next game, becuase the power of items has only gone up over time to the point where a lot of the newer ones feel way too overtuned and not fun to play against.

Animal Crate.

Summons animal buddies.

 

[SPEN18]

The Sakurai statement about Shulk is just saying that most of the slots, especially higher-priority slots, are going to go to the bigger series. Smaller series still clearly have a chance to be considered but aren't going to get as many resources or as much priority devoted to them. Which is pretty consistent with how everything has always worked.

That statement doesn't have anything to do with how Shulk fights. It's 100% unrelated to the number of sword users.

 

[Sucumbio]

But I like Corrin

 

[osby]

But I like Corrin

Look at it from the bright side: they never have to pay rent anytime soon

 

[Will]

I like most of the Fire Emblem cast. I just hope the trend of your protagonist being a make-a-character doesn’t mean the newcomers will now always be OCs.

Going back to that brief Wonder Flower discussion we had earlier, what new items would you like to see?

The coconut gun would be cool to have as an item. Having a blaster-type weapon that launches heavy-hitting projectiles that follow the laws of gravity sounds really fun.

We used to have that kind of item.

The Brawl website is still up, by the way. I didn’t know that.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

And for items in general, I hope that the power creep for them is toned down in the next game, becuase the power of items has only gone up over time to the point where a lot of the newer ones feel way too overtuned and not fun to play against.

It's funny because the overpower items is actually the reason why I started playing more with competitive rulesets starting with Smash 4 instead of playing only for fun with items. I don't hate items, I still use them sometimes with friends, but they really started to go overboard with items power with Smash 4. The wind staff from Skyward sword or the Ore club from Kid icarus especially are just not fun to play against. More recent assist trophies are also so much crazier than Brawl one, stuff like Rodin, Rathalos, Tiki or Sheriff are so hard to fight against.

 

[Dan Quixote]

It's funny because the overpower items is actually the reason why I started playing more with competitive rulesets starting with Smash 4 instead of playing only for fun with items. I don't hate items, I still use them sometimes with friends, but they really started to go overboard with items power with Smash 4. The wind staff from Skyward sword or the Ore club from Kid icarus especially are just not fun to play against. More recent assist trophies are also so much crazier than Brawl one, stuff like Rodin, Rathalos, Tiki or Sheriff are so hard to fight against.

The Assist Trophies were the big kicker for me. Poké Ball summons, too. Ever since half of them started to become too OP, totally interrupting the flow of the fight, I've been pushed more and more to itemless battles. I'm not even a huge competitive player! I still play with stage hazards almost every time. It's just that those summons are way too much. Wish you could turn off individual ones.

 

[HyperSomari64]

what new items would you like to see?

IDK, Mega Stone? It turns into a Mega Evolution of said character.
This is just a silly idea that won't work in execution.

 

[Perkilator]

I'd like to see the Dedede Brooch too, in the form of an equipable item like the Screw Attack or the Franklin Badge. It protects you from losing a stock for a brief period of time; if you're launched into the blast zone, the brooch ejects you back out to give you a second chance, destroying itself in the process.

Weirdly enough, I had that idea for a Phoenix Down item.

 

[Noipoi]

IDK, Mega Stone? It turns into a Mega Evolution of said character.
This is just a silly idea that won't work in execution.

Too late.

Every single character gets a mega evolution now.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Too late.

Every single character gets a mega evolution now.

Is Mega Man X the mega of Rock "Megaman" Light?

 

[Sucumbio]

We used to have that kind of item.

View attachment 383256

Yes! My favorite item in Brawl and my most wanted item to return in the future. It has just enough shots so if you hit launch repeatedly while keeping the angle moving from straight up to sideways and back they'd crisscross just right and KOnat least one unlucky soul if not more. Perfect for FFA.