Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Arcanir]

Just because you didn't doesn't mean nobody did.

I played it a lot on Wii U and dabbled on occasion on Switch with some people, Swamp Sensei included.

I'm still waiting for a sequel to it, there's a lot of potential to be tapped with it.

Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu, Roy, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Sheik, ROB, Zero Suit Samus, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, Corrin, Piranha Plant, Incineroar, Ridley, Byleth.

If I had a time machine, I'd stop Sakurai from making any of these guys Fighters. Some would get to be Alt Costumes, Assist Trophies in Brawl, or Echoes in Ultimate. But none of them would have been their own Fighters. And I'd replace them by making all the other semi clones completely unique(Ganondorf, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, Wolf, Chrom Isabelle) or with completely new characters.

And this is why fans shouldn't have complete control of the roster. These omissions ignore quite a bit of history, personality, and uniqueness that these characters provide out of bias, a roster without your Ridleys, ROBs, Robins and the like would not be automatically better.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Thankfully you will never get one.

"Everyone is here forever, but we also need to cut these specific fighters"

They aren't cuts if they were never added in the first place.

a roster without your Ridleys, ROBs, Robins and the like would not be automatically better.

Sure it would. Because there'd be better characters in their place.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu, Roy, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Sheik, ROB, Zero Suit Samus, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, Corrin, Piranha Plant, Incineroar, Ridley, Byleth.

If I had a time machine, I'd stop Sakurai from making any of these guys Fighters. Some would get to be Alt Costumes, Assist Trophies in Brawl, or Echoes in Ultimate. But none of them would have been their own Fighters. And I'd replace them by making all the other semi clones completely unique(Ganondorf, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, Wolf, Chrom Isabelle) or with completely new characters.

Why do you keep saying things to make me sad specifically?

 

[NintenRob]

Removing characters characters like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B, Wii Fit Trainer and even Piranha Plant to lesser extent. Tells me you don't like fun and don't have a creative bone in your body.

They are some of most fun and creative additions to the roster and should be praised. I'm especially bias towards Game and Watch and obviously R.O.B.. But Wii Fit Trainer is probably the most genius addition Sakurai has ever done.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Why do you keep saying things to make me sad specifically?

You called Kunio mid or something.

 

[Laniv]

Anyone that has issues with Ice Climbers or any of the retro characters has issues with me. I say bring in more of 'em. The more oddball weirdo fighters, the better

 

[Guynamednelson]

Here I was thinking the drawback to Ultimate Deluxe/EiH2.0 would be that there would be yet another small number of base game newcomers.

Turns out the drawback is...it literally means every single fighter returns, whether or not it meets one single random internet dweller's standards.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To clarify DarthEnderX I don't think anyone is making fun of you for not liking a character.

It's just that one of the staunchest supporters of EiH 2 having this (very) long list of characters they don't like is very ironic.

 

[SPEN18]

Of course, not wanting a character is just as valid as wanting a character, and you can have your opinion on who should be on the roster and who should not. Though personally I don't agree with simply not liking the character as a motive for wanting a cut. Not to mention that line of thought is pretty unlikely to get anybody to agree with you.

To be fair, a lot of people follow a similar viewpoint whether they realize it or not. When it comes to potential newcomers, people have picks they actively want, picks they're indifferent to, and picks they actively don't want. But then as soon as a character gets in, all of a sudden you see far fewer dissenters than before (at least over time as the immediate reaction to the reveal wears off), and openly not wanting them becomes a much touchier subject which you might struggle to express without fear of being derided, even if you have well-thought-out reasoning. People also develop altruistic motives for not wanting cuts, even though not wanting someone to go without their favorite applies to potential newcomers just as much as it does to vets. So "I don't want any cuts but there's a bunch of characters I wish had never been added" (or at least "that I wouldn't have personally gone for") is actually pretty common, just not usually expressed so overtly or even at all.

It's not like you have to agree with every decision the devs make; there's been plenty of decisions that I didn't personally agree with, along with plenty I've changed my mind on one way or another over time, and I think speculators in general should be more receptive to criticism of characters who have in fact made it in. That said, there's always a select group which doesn't express things properly and/or doesn't have good motivations to begin with, which makes certain others assume the worst when arguing against a character that got in comes up.

 

[dream1ng]

Well, see for me Smash is a fighting game first ... So whether Character gets in is entirely irrelevant for me because they're another chance to play the fighting game with their uniqueness and see how they compare to everyone else ... That's the thing I look for in fighters... The added bonus to Smash is that these fighters are mapped onto famous video game sprites as opposed to OGs like literally every other fighter that isn't an all star fighter so that's why I think it's unusual to actively not want whatever character because who knows maybe they're fun to use! But then we get into character hate which I realize exists and that's just wasted effort IMHO to experience hate towards a video game character or to actively be worried they may get it the game over your most wanted as if that's how any of this works.

I don't think not liking every potential character is any stranger than compiling a playlist and not liking every potential song you could add. Yeah every new song is a song different from the last, but usually being novel is not the extent of what defines whether someone likes something.

If someone gave me a playlist of 89 songs they chose, there's a very good chance that there were some I wasn't into. It doesn't mean I hate them. People are doing that internet thing where some people are voicing not liking every character and suddenly that has become express, active hate.

And it's not a question of effort to dislike something. I'm not going into that character thread and ranting about them. I'm not actively campaigning against that character. I just don't like them for one reason or another. I don't dwell on it, unless they're the focus of whatever is going on. It doesn't ruin the game; it's not hate, and it's just a small number among literal dozens. Takes just as much effort as liking them. It's automatic.

Also no, I'm of the opposite take that these characters pre-existing in their own series would make it more unusual you would dislike them. The characters existing from elsewhere already gives them a background, history, fanbase, competition, and general baggage that would be key in forming the opinion. Them already being something makes it much less likely you'd have uniform opinion of all of them, both for positive and negative.

I'm not saying "start disliking things". I find it odd that in 89 characters, you've liked them all, but that's ultimately not a bad thing. I'm just saying... disliking things is as normal as liking them. Usually it's pretty benign. Anything more than that and you'd have a problem on your hands.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't think not liking every potential character is any stranger than compiling a playlist and not liking every potential song you could add. Yeah every new song is a song different from the last, but usually being novel is not the extent of what defines whether someone likes something.

If someone gave me a playlist of 89 songs they chose, there's a very good chance that there were some I wasn't into. It doesn't mean I hate them. People are doing that internet thing where some people are voicing not liking every character and suddenly that has become express, active hate.

And it's not a question of effort to dislike something. I'm not going into that character thread and ranting about them. I'm not actively campaigning against that character. I just don't like them for one reason or another. I don't dwell on it, unless they're the focus of whatever is going on. It doesn't ruin the game; it's not hate, and it's just a small number among literal dozens. Takes just as much effort as liking them. It's automatic.

Also no, I'm of the opposite take that these characters pre-existing in their own series would make it more unusual you would dislike them. The characters existing from elsewhere already gives them a background, history, fanbase, competition, and general baggage that would be key in forming the opinion. Them already being something makes it much less likely you'd have uniform opinion of all of them, both for positive and negative.

I'm not saying "start disliking things". I find it odd that in 89 characters, you've liked them all, but that's ultimately not a bad thing. I'm just saying... disliking things is as normal as liking them. Usually it's pretty benign. Anything more than that and you'd have a problem on your hands.

Oh I gotcha lol no I don't like all 89 characters. But I didn't decide I didn't like them all until after I used them. Up until the point of actually trying them and deciding if they're for me or not, I have no opinion on their inclusion other a positive one for them being in there in the first place. Does that make it clearer?

 

[DarthEnderX]

To clarify DarthEnderX I don't think anyone is making fun of you for not liking a character.

Oh. Okay then.

It's just that one of the staunchest supporters of EiH 2 having this (very) long list of characters they don't like is very ironic.

The completionists curse.


And to be clear, I like a lot of those characters, just not as Fighters.

Characters like Dr. Mario and Pichu should be Alts/Echoes. Characters like G&W and Piranha Plant should be ATs. Ridley should be a Boss. etc.

 

[PeridotGX]

I want the role that's best suited to the character. Whether it be a mobile, playable Fighter, a huge Boss with screen filling attacks, or brief cameos as Assist Trophies.

Would making Rathalos into a Fighter be an upgrade for it? Sure. Is that the best way to represent it as a character? Hell no.

Ridley was perfectly suited to being a Boss. Turning him into a Fighter warped him into something he wasn't meant to be.

It would be now that he's already a Fighter, yes. Which is why I'm not suggesting he go back to being a Boss. That would violate the sanctity of 'Everyone is Here'.

But he still shouldn't have been made a Fighter in the first place.

I don't know. I think a slightly scuffed playable Ridley beats a boss that you see once or twice in the thousands of hours you spend playing the game.

Honestly, bosses are kind of a waste of dev time. They have about the same number of animations as a playable fighter, but you barely see them. I think it would be for the best if the next Smash didn't bother and just did the Hands.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think a slightly scuffed playable Ridley beats a boss that you see once or twice in the thousands of hours you spend playing the game.

The solution there is to find more uses for Bosses, not to make obvious Bosses into Fighters.

We still don't even have a proper Boss Rush mode...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The bosses didn't stay interesting to fight, as the whole point of the game is to outright play as unique characters.

That, and after being able to play as Master Hand, it showed they outright could be cool as their own unique mechanic. There's little point to even having the Bosses be pure NPC's now. This isn't an Adventure game. It's an actual fighting game and they have unique movesets. Obviously many would be banned in competitive play for balance reasons(depending how they're handled. Giga Bowser can't be grabbed is one of many reasons, though he's admittedly not a big deal balance-wise. At least compared, to say, Master Hand).

Adventure Mode is neat and all on its own, but Classic(also known as Simple in Japan) didn't really utilize the bosses enough to make the effort feel worthwhile. They also had stuff like the return of Metal Mario and Giant Donkey Kong who are far easier to work with while staying in theme. It's a lot less resources for the effective same payoff. As we're not really likely to get big elaborate stories(or tons of cutscenes in general) again, the big imposing boss has way less impact without the story factor to back it up. That, and outside of the floating bosses, the rest don't really have oddities to work with. Sure, they're going to obviously not be "fair", but they're not supposed to be. Playable Ganon wouldn't have so much armor/invincibility periods, for instance. Rathalos is mostly a grounded enemy and could work fine, and so on.

Plus, they made Master Hand work fine(for his purpose. He clearly wouldn't do well in certain arenas where his floatiness could be unfair. That's kind of important in how they're handled. There's a reason the fact he's not usable in Century Smash or any All-Star variant is called into question as a choice. He's a one-shot playable character, which undermines the option. If you could reply that piece of the story when you want without going through a long game? Absolutely, that's fine. But you can't. As of now, his little Bonus moment is not worth a full replay at all. There's not even much reason to replay the entire mode besides going to the harder version, and even then, that's... 2 times you can play as Master Hand. Not exactly a good incentive).

 

[smashkirby]

My tepid take: everyone should have their own victory theme at this point.

Unless I read the TCRF page wrong, it would seem as though Brawl WAS set to do what you just described, to the point that Mewtwo AND Roy would have been among those with their own victory theme as well.

Anyone that has issues with Ice Climbers or any of the retro characters has issues with me. I say bring in more of 'em. The more oddball weirdo fighters, the better

 

[Will]

Characters like Dr. Mario and Pichu should be Alts/Echoes.

I pity the rat. Remove the self-harm mechanic. Pichu deserves some dignity.

 

[NintenRob]

The whole point of Mr. Game & Watch is to be a playable amalgamation of all the classic G&W systems. You don't have a Mr. Game & Watch unless he's playable. And frankly, that's the way he should be. Nintendo's first line of Handhelds predating GameBoy. Essentially a tribute to Gunpei Yokoi. A big part of Smash Bros is to showoff the history of Nintendo and gaming as a whole. That includes the playable characters

 

[DarthEnderX]

The whole point of Mr. Game & Watch is to be a playable amalgamation of all the classic G&W systems. You don't have a Mr. Game & Watch unless he's playable.

You're right. You'd have a bunch of ATs or Stages that actually act like the G&W games and is a better representation of those games.

There'd be no Mr. Game & Watch AT. There'd be a Ball AT. An Octopus AT. Just like the Color-TV Game 15 AT.

 

[NintenRob]

You're right. You'd have a bunch of ATs or Stages that actually act like the G&W games and is a better representation of those games.

There'd be no Mr. Game & Watch AT. There'd be a Ball AT. An Octopus AT. Just like the Color-TV Game 15 AT.

Alternatively, instead of having a bunch of repetitive and visually similar assist trophies. You can have one super fun and unique playable character who stands out from the rest of the cast in the best way possible.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The big name characters are what gets eyes on Smash, but the weirdos are what makes it special. I can't imagine Smash without Jigglypuff, the Ice Climbers, Mr. G&W or the Duck Hunt dog at this point.
It's also the only (or one of the very few) places where you get to play as characters like Ridley, Ganondorf, King K. Rool, a Piranha Plant, or even Falco and Zelda. And the 3rd party characters are all popular but you wouldn't expect to see them in the same game.

Bah, if Smash was only about Nintendo's usual faces it would be a way worse series.

 

[fogbadge]

Remember when niche Nintendo franchises seemed like they had a shot?

 

[NintenRob]

Remember when niche Nintendo franchises seemed like they had a shot?

Remember it like it was yesterday....

And today....

Maybe even tomorrow

 

[BritishGuy54]

Remember when niche Nintendo franchises seemed like they had a shot?

Remember when niche Nintendo franchises seemed like they had a shot?

 

[Dinoman96]

Remember when niche Nintendo franchises seemed like they had a shot?

Something I'll always remember is when Shulk was announced for Smash 4 on the old Miiverse site...

"not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" to me, always felt like a kinda sorta middle finger to IPs and characters like Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc

 

[RileyXY1]

Something I'll always remember is when Shulk was announced for Smash 4 on the old Miiverse site...

"not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" to me, always felt like a kinda sorta middle finger to IPs and characters like Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc

And that post surely aged like milk.

 

[fogbadge]

Something I'll always remember is when Shulk was announced for Smash 4 on the old Miiverse site...

"not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" to me, always felt like a kinda sorta middle finger to IPs and characters like Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc

that comment has aged badly

 

[Geno Boost]

what does "not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" even mean? its not even a 3rd party lol

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My tepid take: everyone should have their own victory theme at this point.

While i dont think EVERYBODY should have them i think it's cool for series that have tons of reps in smash or have their respective villains to have it.

Something I'll always remember is when Shulk was announced for Smash 4 on the old Miiverse site...

"not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" to me, always felt like a kinda sorta middle finger to IPs and characters like Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc

Man how things change

 

[Opossum]

FFS something doesn't age like milk if it was explicitly true at the time it was said.

At the time the roster was decided, Xenoblade was a one off game with an uncertain future that literally only just got a North American release long after everywhere else, where it was a critically understocked GameStop exclusive. The UK voice cast, something that's now a trademark of the series, was only done because NoA refused to localize it themselves and thought of it as a waste until the backlash, no matter what they claim toward the contrary to make themselves look good.

Shulk's baggage in the lead up to Smash 4 was very different from basically any other addition in that game. In many ways, he was an exception.

"Villager doesn't make sense as a fighter" is a statement that aged poorly (and even then in the context of Brawl's aesthetic it's still somewhat valid). This...isn't that. It's something that was explicitly true at the time.

 

[fogbadge]

FFS something doesn't age like milk if it was explicitly true at the time it was said.

At the time the roster was decided, Xenoblade was a one off game with an uncertain future that literally only just got a North American release long after everywhere else, where it was a critically understocked GameStop exclusive. The UK voice cast, something that's now a trademark of the series, was only done because NoA refused to localize it themselves and thought of it as a waste until the backlash, no matter what they claim toward the contrary to make themselves look good.

Shulk's baggage in the lead up to Smash 4 was very different from basically any other addition in that game. In many ways, he was an exception.

"Villager doesn't make sense as a fighter" is a statement that aged poorly (and even then in the context of Brawl's aesthetic it's still somewhat valid). This...isn't that. It's something that was explicitly true at the time.

i think it’s mostly about the irony that the series is now huge.

 

[Opossum]

i think it’s mostly about the irony that the series is now huge.

Yeah, but pointing out irony is not the same as something aging poorly. Implying the statement itself aged poorly when it was very much true at the time is like unironically going, "Last year Obama said he was 57, and now he's saying he's 58. Which is it, Obama?"

 

[RileyXY1]

FFS something doesn't age like milk if it was explicitly true at the time it was said.

At the time the roster was decided, Xenoblade was a one off game with an uncertain future that literally only just got a North American release long after everywhere else, where it was a critically understocked GameStop exclusive. The UK voice cast, something that's now a trademark of the series, was only done because NoA refused to localize it themselves and thought of it as a waste until the backlash, no matter what they claim toward the contrary to make themselves look good.

Shulk's baggage in the lead up to Smash 4 was very different from basically any other addition in that game. In many ways, he was an exception.

"Villager doesn't make sense as a fighter" is a statement that aged poorly (and even then in the context of Brawl's aesthetic it's still somewhat valid). This...isn't that. It's something that was explicitly true at the time.

That post aged like milk because Xenoblade Chronicles is now a huge franchise that got three more games since Smash 4's release and is now widely considered a major system seller.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, but pointing out irony is not the same as something aging poorly. Implying the statement itself aged poorly when it was very much true at the time is like unironically going, "Last year Obama said he was 57, and now he's saying he's 58. Which is it, Obama?"

I feel like you’re nitpicking

 

[Opossum]

That post aged like milk because Xenoblade Chronicles is now a huge franchise that got three more games since Smash 4's release and is now widely considered a major system seller.

For something to age like milk it inherently needs to make a statement about the future that ends up being wrong. Stating what the franchise was at the time, which is demonstrably true, and not making a claim about its future, means that it did not age like milk.

Just take the L, dude.

 

[osby]

Something I'll always remember is when Shulk was announced for Smash 4 on the old Miiverse site...

"not the type of character that would usually appear in the Smash Bros. series" to me, always felt like a kinda sorta middle finger to IPs and characters like Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, etc

I feel like basically every other statement from the Smash devs is either a middle finger or a slap in the face for some fans.

 

[NintenRob]

I think I remember in the build up to Smash 4 there was some debate if Shulk counted as Third Party or First Party (he's obviously Nintendo owned but it still existed) since his games were developed entirely by monolith so I feel that comment may have eluded to the fact that he came from an unusual developer at the time.


Also didn't help matters he was grouped with third party characters initially

 

[fogbadge]

I think I remember in the build up to Smash 4 there was some debate if Shulk counted as Third Party or First Party (he's obviously Nintendo owned but it still existed) since his games were developed entirely by monolith so I feel that comment may have eluded to the fact that he came from an unusual developer at the time.


Also didn't help matters he was grouped with third party characters initially View attachment 383247

there are some people who count Pokemon as third party

 

[NintenRob]

there are some people who count Pokemon as third party

They're actually closer to Third Party than Xenoblade is.

Nintendo owns 100% of Monolith Soft so Xenoblade is completely Nintendo owned. However with Pokemon, they have to share it with Game Freak and Creatures Inc.

 

[BritishGuy54]

They're actually closer to Third Party than Xenoblade is.

Nintendo owns 100% of Monolith Soft so Xenoblade is completely Nintendo owned. However with Pokemon, they have to share it with Game Freak and Creatures Inc.

Xenoblade is also more first party than both Fire Emblem and Kirby, if I’m right. Both Intelligent Systems and HAL are both second party.