Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I still think we should’ve gotten Starman or Fighter Hayabusa alongside Incineroar

Every heel needs a face to fight, after all

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I still think we should’ve gotten Starman or Fighter Hayabusa alongside Incineroar

Every heel needs a face to fight, after all

Star Man vs. Incineroar would be cool.

Shame there's some legal mumbo jumbo over Pro Wrestling to where it gets absolutely no acknowledgment in Smash whatsoever.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Eh, I kinda like Greninja’s voice. He sounds like Stitch

Oh, I love Greninja's voice. To me it's what really elevates the character from an edgymon to a genuinely funny ninja frog

 

[Louie G.]

As someone who wanted Wrestler (& Reporter) in Smash For, I feel I went about it the wrong way with having a fighter that focused on the wrestling aspect (where Incineroar was the better fit).

Rather, whichever fighter for Rhythm Heaven gets in should be focused on having....well, rhythm in their attacks. I disagree on the notion of "music based" as even traditional theming works on a rhythmic level if you adapt their games from the series.

This is a fair assessment, you're right. The key isn't necessarily having someone centered around music, just embodying the rhythmic back-and-forth nature of Rhythm Heaven and a Wrestler / Reporter team could do that too. I'm just also pretty starved for a proper musician character on the roster and I see Rhythm Heaven as the best way to achieve that, so if we can also accomplish that theming then that's just my preference.

There's also the blank slate aspect of someone like Chorus Kids or Tap Girl where pulling out props from other minigames, performing actions from those games would feel less jarring than if Karate Joe or Wrestler were doing it. And I think that pseudo Game & Watch approach is a good base, but again I'd really just take anything at this point. As long as they're fittingly zany and have some sort of special timing based mechanic.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I also was never a huge fan of the idea of having Karate joe or Wrestler especially. I was a very big Chorus kids supporter (obviously), but in recent years I actually leaned a bit towards Tibby more. I feel like his design is just "generic" enough for him to pull stuff from other minigames would make sense. He's also the franchise only true protagonist, he's very expressive and he's very cute which represent the franchise very well. He also doesn't have the problem of the potential trio character, he could just be a more basic fighter with a few timing based moves.

 

[Gengar84]

I think the only other transforming fighter I'd really like to see are the aforementioned Splatoon idol teams. Squid Sisters or Off the Hook probably, although I'd like to see anyone from Deep Cut playable the most. But I believe if they went for one of these guys, they could lean harder into an assist-focused mechanic a la the Angry Beavers in NASB. It fits the emphasis on teamwork in the Splatoon series as well as the synergy that these characters have with one another, kind of a comfortable middle point between the Ice Climbers and Pyra / Mythra. And this is how I assume Diddy and Dixie may have played out too.

Otherwise, it's not that I don't like transformation characters but rather I don't think we need that many more of them. I don't wanna be much of a character = function guy here, but I do believe if something like this is done once it probably serves the idea best to let it remain that way so it remains a special gimmick. The aforementioned concept I mapped out is distinct in its own way, but if we're doing another character that's just Zelda / Sheik or Pyra / Mythra over again then I'd rather not do it.



He's probably climbed up to my favorite Pokemon in the game, although it reminds me that I wish Mewtwo was flashier too. I think his age is showing a bit, would love to see him treated more akin to someone like Sephiroth because as-is he doesn't quite feel like the intensely powerful legendary force he's supposed to be. In general I think Smash has played it a little safe with some of its god-level boss threats up til Sephiroth and I want to see that philosophy extended toward the others now that we're here. Ganondorf and Mewtwo could particularly use that boost, maybe Palutena too.

I can understand that. I think there’s still a lot of potential for the mechanic that Smash hasn’t really tapped into yet. Namely, combination attacks. Whether that’s upon switching in and out like a lot of traditional fighting games with the mechanic have or some other way. Choosing a pair that specifically work together in some way and play off each other would be important. Both Zelda/Sheik and Pyra/Mythra were the same person as their counterpart so team attacks wouldn’t have made sense for them. Pokémon Trainer had its own thing going so it didn’t make sense to clutter the moveset with that idea either, plus that’s not quite how switching in Pokemon works anyways. I feel like as long as they give each pair something that plays off each other and makes them stand out rather than just being more straight swaps, there’s plenty of room for more characters.

 

[fogbadge]

At this point my pick for rhythm paradise character is the chameleon

 

[Ivander]

Man I remember when Deoxsys was a popular request.

Would have loved it if it actually happened.

A Pokemon representing each Gen would be nice. Gen 3, 5, 8 and 9 all have some nice picks. Kinda wish we also got a Gen 2 Pokemon that wasn't Pichu, but Pichu is fine.

While we're on the subject of monsters/creatures or just more unorthodox picks in general I would like to mention Final Fantasy summons.

People understandably always talk Black Mage, Terra, another 7 rep, etc. but I'd honestly really like to see to Shiva and Ifrit as fighters.

Summons in general are a major reoccurring part of the series and those two are among the most prominent/iconic.

And before it gets brought up, no I don't care that Midgar has summons on it. Characters can be used in multiple roles.

Then let's go with the Best Final Fantasy summon for our Final Fantasy Summon rep.

 

[Gengar84]

I’d love a playable Final Fantasy summon. I love the designs for a lot of them. I’d say Diablos is my favorite but I also really like Bahamut, Ifrit, Shiva, Valefor, and Odin. I think VIII and X had my favorite summon designs overall so I’d go with one of them as the base for the summon. I actually own figures of Diablos, Ifrit, Cerberus, Odin, and Bahamut. Alternatively, we could get a Summoner like Terra, Garnet, or Yuna so we could get multiple of them in one character. I’d be pretty hyped with either scenario.

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[cashregister9]

Let's get Alexander in here

just for the music

 

[BuckleyTim]

I just don't think there's a good way to represent rhythm heaven without making a rep from it benefit from fighting to the beat of the bgm that's playing, and that's something that would be a steve-level effort for a relatively niche character. As much as I want to see it, there's too much music In smash that changes bpm and even time signature for it to work without a lot of compromise.

 

[Geno Boost]

While we're on the subject of monsters/creatures or just more unorthodox picks in general I would like to mention Final Fantasy summons.

People understandably always talk Black Mage, Terra, another 7 rep, etc. but I'd honestly really like to see to Shiva and Ifrit as fighters.

Summons in general are a major reoccurring part of the series and those two are among the most prominent/iconic.

And before it gets brought up, no I don't care that Midgar has summons on it. Characters can be used in multiple roles.

there is only 1 correct answer if there is a need for ff monster
absolute virtue the hardest boss in video game ever
it will make ff11 fans **** their pants

 

[Kirbeh]

A Pokemon representing each Gen would be nice. Gen 3, 5, 8 and 9 all have some nice picks. Kinda wish we also got a Gen 2 Pokemon that wasn't Pichu, but Pichu is fine.

Then let's go with the Best Final Fantasy summon for our Final Fantasy Summon rep.

When you go for the hail Mary and get Excalipoor

 

[fogbadge]

A Pokemon representing each Gen would be nice. Gen 3, 5, 8 and 9 all have some nice picks. Kinda wish we also got a Gen 2 Pokemon that wasn't Pichu, but Pichu is fine.

Then let's go with the Best Final Fantasy summon for our Final Fantasy Summon rep.

let us smash like men! and ladies. and ladies who dress like men. for smash bros it’s morphing time

 

[Ivander]

there is only 1 correct answer if there is a need for ff monster
absolute virtue the hardest boss in video game ever
it will make ff11 fans **** their pants

Bottom Text

 

[DarthEnderX]

But considering one got into Pokken and the other into Smash, I guess it’s all even now.

Don't nobody give a **** about Pokken!

If you ask me by picking incineroar sakurai went with both the worst possible gen 7 Pokemon and the lamest possible wrestler

We should have got Decidueye and Mike Haggar.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Don't nobody give a **** about Pokken!

Just because you didn't doesn't mean nobody did.

I played it a lot on Wii U and dabbled on occasion on Switch with some people, Swamp Sensei included.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Just because you didn't doesn't mean nobody did.

That's exactly what it means. I am the tastemaker around which reality takes it's shape.

 

[Ivander]

That's exactly what it means. I am the tastemaker around which reality takes it's shape.

You're not Kirby.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Between Mewtwo, Lucario, and Greninja, Incineroar stands out a lot and might be one of my favorite newcomers from Ult's base game.

He's such a well-designed character, he's honestly up there with Captain Falcon and Marth in terms of S-tier character designs for a platform fighter. He's super fun to play, and while I didn't care at all for him when he was first announced, I quickly fell in love with his kit after seeing what he's capable of by watching Skyjay work his magic with the character in tournaments. That, and it's super fun to just mash buttons with him in friendlies.

 

[dream1ng]

That's exactly what it means. I am the tastemaker around which reality takes it's shape.

That's clearly not true since a z-axis and polygonal graphics in games are still things.

 

[FazDude]

I just don't think there's a good way to represent rhythm heaven without making a rep from it benefit from fighting to the beat of the bgm that's playing, and that's something that would be a steve-level effort for a relatively niche character. As much as I want to see it, there's too much music In smash that changes bpm and even time signature for it to work without a lot of compromise.

Simple solution; Make a gimmicky Rhythm Heaven stage where everyone's attacks get boosted if they attack to the beat. A metromone would be present for hard-of-hearing players, and turning off stage hazards would remove the gimmick.

 

[Louie G.]

I just don't think there's a good way to represent rhythm heaven without making a rep from it benefit from fighting to the beat of the bgm that's playing, and that's something that would be a steve-level effort for a relatively niche character. As much as I want to see it, there's too much music In smash that changes bpm and even time signature for it to work without a lot of compromise.

I think it would be easy enough for each necessary rhythm attack to operate on its own metronome. Having them respond to the actual music playing in each stage would be cool but is overthinking a concept that doesn't need to be that complicated. We already have several timing based moves in the game, such as Incineroar's Side B and Wii Fit Trainer's Deep Breathing. Taking these pre-existing secondary mechanics and making them the focus of a Rhythm Heaven moveset doesn't seem like such a tall order, attacks would have their own rhythm and players will adapt to them quickly.

in recent years I actually leaned a bit towards Tibby more

I just can't really get behind Tibby so much, I dunno. He doesn't speak to me in respect to characterization or design, I think anything he can do I'd rather see done by the Barista or something. I understand why someone would opt for him since he's one of the only characters in the series with some sort of established protagonist role, but he's far from my preference personally.

 

[smashkirby]

Another Code coming out tomorrow! Perhaps if it does well enough... well I'm not that optimistic for a playable character, but maybe an Assist Trophy or Stage or Mii Costume in the next game.

While I legit wouldn't mind Ashley Mizuki Robbins being playable, I'm all for more Another Code/Trace Memory representation. For that matter, it IS nice to see the duology's been getting its dues in Smash Bros. thus far, however minor it might be.

But considering one got into Pokken and the other into Smash, I guess it’s all even now.

Ngl, Pokken is part of why I'm not opposed to Pikachu Libre becoming a separate playable character at some point. Heck, I was already hyped to see her be playable via Pikachu's alternate costumes.

As a massive Rhythm Heaven fan, I love Incineroar and quite frankly never was that into the idea of adding Wrestler. I'd be cool with him as a second character, but Rhythm Heaven's initial representation should come with someone more focused on the music aspect. Never really thought a fighter based on a traditional archetype like Karate Joe or Wrestler would be a good depiction of what the series is about.

I mean, I'd still gladly accept it, but I'd have some qualms about it not being Chorus Kids, Barista or Yuka / Tap Girl first.

Alternatively though, we could have gotten someone from Pro Wrestling too. I'd love to see how Smash revitalizes a character like Star Man or the Amazon. But all of this is null and void anyway, because a Pokémon was gonna be added no matter what and Sakurai just opted for the grappler. It's not like he was deciding between all the possible wrestling characters, he was deciding between the Gen 7 Pokémon.

This is a fair assessment, you're right. The key isn't necessarily having someone centered around music, just embodying the rhythmic back-and-forth nature of Rhythm Heaven and a Wrestler / Reporter team could do that too. I'm just also pretty starved for a proper musician character on the roster and I see Rhythm Heaven as the best way to achieve that, so if we can also accomplish that theming then that's just my preference.

There's also the blank slate aspect of someone like Chorus Kids or Tap Girl where pulling out props from other minigames, performing actions from those games would feel less jarring than if Karate Joe or Wrestler were doing it. And I think that pseudo Game & Watch approach is a good base, but again I'd really just take anything at this point. As long as they're fittingly zany and have some sort of special timing based mechanic.

Looks like you pretty share ALL of my sentiments on the subject of a Rhythm Heaven character (and a character from Pro Wrestling, for that matter!).

Personally, I'd much rather have Yuka in particular as the playable R.H. rep, as she's (like you said) enough of a blank slate that her being Rhythm Heaven's answer to Mr. Game & Watch's gimmick wouldn't feel out of place. With that said, I hope Sakurai considers Yuka in such a way at some point in the future.

As for Pro Wrestling, I'd even take Fighter Hayabusa, if not Star Man or the Amazon. You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many folks think I'm referring to Ninja Gaiden though...

Star Man vs. Incineroar would be cool.

Shame there's some legal mumbo jumbo over Pro Wrestling to where it gets absolutely no acknowledgment in Smash whatsoever.

Totally!

But... wait, there's legal stuff affecting Pro Wrestling? Is it the same type of thing that affected Joy Mech Fight and Doshin the Giant from appearing in Smash for a while?

 

[Garteam]

I'd like for both to make it in but I'd prefer it if they're separate fighters to be honest. Rather than forcing them together, I think we just need a proper tag mode to have proper team ups.

That's fair. Realistically, though, it feels like we'd get one of X or Zero as an individual character or both as a transforming character simply due to how much competition there is amongst Capcom's roster. In that scenario, I'd much rather see both of the boys get some love as a transforming character. X3, Xtreme 2, X7, and X8 all feature the ability to swap between X and Zero in gameplay, so it's not a massive departure from Mega Man X's gameplay either.

 

[dream1ng]

I appreciate when a character has an interesting gimmick (even when it makes them unfun or broken, I can appreciate the creativity and faithfulness) but as long as the character is still faithful to the source material, I really don't care if they have a standard moveset either. I think most people are in the same boat.

That's not to say some of the old 64/Melee movesets couldn't use an update, but one, they don't really make them like that anymore, and two, a lot of those movesets just make **** up instead of using source material.

So if the rhythmic gimmick didn't end up working, or was too much work, or just wasn't fun... I'd still rather get a standard-moveset RH character over nothing. In fact, if the gimmick was awkward, I'd prefer a standard moveset.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like Rythm heaven would be better represented with a stage rather than a character, idk it feels like a character would be a lot more gimmicky than any of the other characters already in the games.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While it wouldn't make many fans of the actual characters/franchises happy given they'd want them in standard Smash fights, I really wish the series did have an asymmetrical multiplayer mode where you could really go nuts with more out there (and arguably unbalanced) characters. Maybe that's where you could incorporate a Rhythm Heaven style mechanic, or where you control really large boss figures otherwise impractical for SBB. Get give fans an opportunity where one person gets to control Kraid against various fighters and another where fighters are battling the player that's controlling Whispy Woods.

Especially with third parties, scenarios where one could play as Dr Wily, a Metal Gear, a Final Fantasy summon, there's all sorts of possibilities.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like Rythm heaven would be better represented with a stage rather than a character, idk it feels like a character would be a lot more gimmicky than any of the other characters already in the games.

As I addressed in another message above, it really wouldn't be. Wii Fit Trainer already has two specials that require particular timing to execute optimally. Rhythm Heaven would just necessitate this throughout their specials and smash attacks, and probably have normal tilts and aerials like anyone else. Maybe some kind of rhythm combo system if possible, but not necessary. Maybe in a post Ultimate DLC world we expect everyone to go absolutely crazy with out there mechanics that reinvent the game, but that definitely doesn't need to happen here and I think people are overshooting a tad.

I'd be overjoyed with even just a stage at this point, but whenever people say stuff like "better represented"... no, I think a full fledged character AND a great stage would be better representation than just one. Rhythm Heaven has dozens of colorful characters bursting with personality, so to sell it short and say none of them could do the series justice is just wrong.

 

[Gorgonzales]

On the topic of rhythm-based fighters...

Smash could always use more funny little guys. Don-Chan is a funny little guy.

From what I understand, Taiko no Tatsujin's way of handling rhythm gameplay is relatively simple. I could see him working with a self-contained metronome mechanic like Louie G suggested for a Rhythm Heaven rep. I could see an RH character having more variety in moves, as well as being more likely due to being a Nintendo character, but there's room for more than one music-focused character in my eyes.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Just because we were on the topic of Rhythm Heaven, enjoy this blast from the past.

 

[Sucumbio]

Never played it but as I'm reading up on Rhythm Heaven it seems similar to Warioware in that there's several different mini games in each installment so a Character in smash would prolly use a unified moveset involving Rhythm with like as mentioned a Metronome and a Tempo so b maybe cycles between 4/4 and 3/4 and then side b towards and side b away can speed or slow and then then a attacks are all hitboxes that come out based on your b choices ..

 

[Gorgonzales]

This is a fair assessment, you're right. The key isn't necessarily having someone centered around music, just embodying the rhythmic back-and-forth nature of Rhythm Heaven and a Wrestler / Reporter team could do that too. I'm just also pretty starved for a proper musician character on the roster and I see Rhythm Heaven as the best way to achieve that, so if we can also accomplish that theming then that's just my preference.

There's also the blank slate aspect of someone like Chorus Kids or Tap Girl where pulling out props from other minigames, performing actions from those games would feel less jarring than if Karate Joe or Wrestler were doing it. And I think that pseudo Game & Watch approach is a good base, but again I'd really just take anything at this point. As long as they're fittingly zany and have some sort of special timing based mechanic.

Was wondering how Wrestler and Reporter would look in-game and the gears in my mind started turning

So I sketched up this very quick mockup because I find this idea so funny

yes i traced over a zangief sprite for wrestler, but i just wanted to get this image out as fast as i could lol

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Don't nobody give a **** about Pokken!

Man.

I was sad after the Ridley comment. But this is too much.

I am now officially a big sad.

 

[dream1ng]

Was wondering how Wrestler and Reporter would look in-game and the gears in my mind started turning

So I sketched up this very quick mockup because I find this idea so funny

View attachment 383223

yes i traced over a zangief sprite for wrestler, but i just wanted to get this image out as fast as i could lol

You forgot the backpack she pops out of

 

[Noipoi]

Man.

I was sad after the Ridley comment. But this is too much.

I am now officially a big sad.

I care about Pokken.

We'll get that sequel any day now!

 

[fogbadge]

Never played it but as I'm reading up on Rhythm Heaven it seems similar to Warioware in that there's several different mini games in each installment

same dev team i believe

 

[Sucumbio]

Actually this answers a question I never asked ... Did there exist people who did not want a character because reasons and there we have it there is a person who didn't want Ridley because they're a boss character that doesn't translate well to a smash fighter ...

I will say I personally haven't ever not wanted a character to become playable. It's afterwards that I complain lol.

And for the record Ridley is the best Boss in Metroid and hella fun in Ultimate. And the only person allowed to say otherwise is my wife would probably say something like "Smash sucks" lol she a bit salty cause I beat her now but on Melee I have no chance . . .

 

[dream1ng]

Actually this answers a question I never asked ... Did there exist people who did not want a character because reasons and there we have it there is a person who didn't want Ridley because they're a boss character that doesn't translate well to a smash fighter ...

I will say I personally haven't ever not wanted a character to become playable. It's afterwards that I complain lol.

And for the record Ridley is the best Boss in Metroid and hella fun in Ultimate. And the only person allowed to say otherwise is my wife would probably say something like "Smash sucks" lol she a bit salty cause I beat her now but on Melee I have no chance . . .

Have people not wanted a character? Yeah... yeah that's happened.

Off the top of my head, may I introduce you to this guy?

 

[fogbadge]

Actually this answers a question I never asked ... Did there exist people who did not want a character because reasons and there we have it there is a person who didn't want Ridley because they're a boss character that doesn't translate well to a smash fighter ...

I will say I personally haven't ever not wanted a character to become playable. It's afterwards that I complain lol.

And for the record Ridley is the best Boss in Metroid and hella fun in Ultimate. And the only person allowed to say otherwise is my wife would probably say something like "Smash sucks" lol she a bit salty cause I beat her now but on Melee I have no chance . . .

well I certainly didn’t want Daisy to be playable