Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

On that topic though, something I've thought about... what exactly happened to all those vocal Ridley haters / detractors? It's one thing to not think he's practical, it was another thing entirely when you had several loud voices proclaiming Ridley's character would be ruined by shrinking him down.

And then Ridley was revealed, he's been in the game for over five years, and everyone just kinda stopped? Is Ridley just that good in Smash that he changed everyone's minds? Certain popular characters make it into the game and their detractors still make it known that they aren't a fan of it - Banjo comes to mind. But anyone who was hating on Ridley kinda just stopped altogether, or maybe didn't continue speculating into Ultimate at all. I do remember Shokio, who was infamously THE "too bigot", being upset when he was revealed and saying he looked bad, but in retrospect he was easily one of the least controversial additions. That was an isolated incident unless I'm forgetting some legendary meltdowns that went on in other forums.

Needless to say, I'm very happy that Ridley is so universally accepted now and I hope he'll be here to stay. It's just crazy to think that this was the single most controversial character for so many years, and then he got added and everyone just waved their white flag and moved on lmao.

Well although the sprite might be smallER meh because of the perfection of damage arcs Ridley actually cover an insane range so everyone like oh... Haha yeah he's disgusting I love it!

My Ridley of choice

 

[Ivander]

Another Code coming out tomorrow! Perhaps if it does well enough... well I'm not that optimistic for a playable character, but maybe an Assist Trophy or Stage or Mii Costume in the next game.

I don't really expect a playable character. But I'm not against a stage that also features the characters as cameos.....seriously, they need to do more non-character represented stages for other games than just the usuals. Even if Advance Wars will have a hard time getting a character because the games aren't that popular in Japan, I'd be all for an Advance Wars stage at least.

 

[Louie G.]

My Ridley of choice

I alternate on which Ridley I like to use, but I think my favorite alt color is his deeper blue / indigo one based on his Fusion clone.

I always thought those colors looked so cool on him, and it's no exception here. Although I'd say by default I'm perfectly satisfied playing good old purple Ridley, purple is my favorite color anyway. I think he's got a really great collection of alts in general, some great nods to the series like the gold Tourian-inspired one. And they nailed the Super Metroid boxart red too.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

On that topic though, something I've thought about... what exactly happened to all those vocal Ridley haters / detractors? It's one thing to not think he's practical, it was another thing entirely when you had several loud voices proclaiming Ridley's character would be ruined by shrinking him down.

And then Ridley was revealed, he's been in the game for over five years, and everyone just kinda stopped? Is Ridley just that good in Smash that he changed everyone's minds? Certain popular characters make it into the game and their detractors still make it known that they aren't a fan of it - Banjo comes to mind. But anyone who was hating on Ridley kinda just stopped altogether, or maybe didn't continue speculating into Ultimate at all. I do remember Shokio, who was infamously THE "too bigot", being upset when he was revealed and saying he looked bad, but in retrospect he was easily one of the least controversial additions. That was an isolated incident unless I'm forgetting some legendary meltdowns that went on in other forums.

Needless to say, I'm very happy that Ridley is so universally accepted now and I hope he'll be here to stay. It's just crazy to think that this was the single most controversial character for so many years, and then he got added and everyone just waved their white flag and moved on lmao.

The haters moved onto Waluigi as their next punch bag, probably. Maybe a little bit of K. Rool too up until his own reveal.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Another Code looks great, wish I had the money to buy it lol. That and Cereza and the Lost Demon both impressed me visuals-wise when I played their respective demos a few days ago. I'm just worried AC in particular will get lost in the mix due to its niche nature.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I really hope they take another look at Ridley's design next game.

There's so much they got right about him like his cruel demeanor, his side special (yes!! he did the thing!! you nailed it!! good job!!), and his mannerisms in general. But then there's his size (he's ironically not big enough), his atrocious air game for a character known for his aerial prowess, and his really low weight, among other issues...

Why his his forward air like that. Out of ALL the options you had for a F-air, you picked the most unintuitive, awkward one? It should be a brutal claw slash, not a dinky, lightning-fast, restrained tail poke. It feels so weird, what were they thinking?

His throws also feel really uninspired. Compare his throws in the Project M mod where he does all sorts of things like lifting his opponent while slashing them with his tail before driving them into the ground, to Ultimate where they give him the most bland, vanilla throws out of any newcomer in that game. When Ridley gets his claws on you, it should HURT. And right now it really doesn't feel that way.

It feels like they were afraid to make him good. I've heard Ult Ridley described as a concession character that's only here out of obligation, and as much as it pains me to say it, I have to agree. He doesn't really feel like Ridley a lot of the time. The times when he does are great! But those moments are few and far in between.

Make him bigger, give him some armor to compensate for the increased hurtbox, give him better specials (other than side because that's good as is), change that atrocious forward air, make his throws more inspired, give him an air game, and I'll be like, YEAH! THAT'S RIDLEY IN SMASH!!

I main Ridley .

I had to stop reading after you said he has no air game.

That's... Blatantly not true.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I main Ridley .

I had to stop reading after you said he has no air game.

That's... Blatantly not true.

You ain't no air fighter, Mac Ridley!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You ain't no air fighter, Mac Ridley!

Side B's off the stage.

Actually recovers.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I main Ridley .

I had to stop reading after you said he has no air game.

That's... Blatantly not true.

Ah, I'll gladly take the L on this one since it's been a while since I played Ultimate; if he does have an air game, I was probably bad at it. I did play Ridley a lot and would notice how hard it was to stay in the air as him though, I should've explained that better. I just wish he had less linear aerial mobility and a fourth jump, as well as an Up-B that isn't... that.

 

[Laniv]

Ridley's up special is like biting into an alleged chocolate chip cookie, but what you think are chocolate chips are actually uncooked black beans.

Also where's his pogo tail, that could've easily been an aerial variant of his down special.

 

[Will]

I main Ridley .

I had to stop reading after you said he has no air game.

That's... Blatantly not true.

People always meme on Mario’s neutral air, but nobody remembers Ridley’s. Absolutely foul.

 

[Gengar84]

I just beat the Ruined King on the Switch. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in old school turn based RPGs. This one has a really interesting combat system where special moves can either be placed in the speed lane, power lane, or balanced lane. If you’ve ever played Legends Arceus, it’s a lot like the strong style and speed style in that game. The overworld reminds me a lot of Diablo but running into an enemy triggers a separate side view battle screen. The game also has a surprisingly great soundtrack and voice acting. You could tell it was made on a budget with how the cutscenes are just slightly animated comic strip images but it was still a lot of fun. I keep thinking of Smash the whole time thinking of how each party member could play. I guess I’m just weird like that lol.

Next, I might move on to either the Xenoblade 3 DLC, finishing Octopath Traveller 2 or Tears of the Kingdom. I have a huge backlog of games I never finished that I need to get through before I buy many other new games. Triangle Strategy and Bravely Default 2 are two others I need to get back to at some point.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I just beat the Ruined King on the Switch. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in old school turn based RPGs. This one has a really interesting combat system where special moves can either be placed in the speed lane, power lane, or balanced lane. If you’ve ever played Legends Arceus, it’s a lot like the strong style and speed style in that game. I keep thinking of Smash the whole time thinking of how each party member could play. I guess I’m just weird like that lol.

Wouldn't say that imagining how a character would play in Smash while playing their game is necessarily weird. I do it all the time, it's fun to fantasize about wacky newcomers while you're in the moment of playing their games.

Some examples of this exact thing happening with games I played recently:

Lethal Company? "Yeah, a moveset where you can call for backup from one of your co-workers spectating the match from the monitor would be really cool. What if you could scan your opponent and attack them to make them drop an item that can be sold to upgrade your attacks? That'd be neat."

Super Monkey Ball? "It would be really cool to see a physics-based fighter that can deal more damage the harder they launch themselves into opponents. Maybe they could use slopes in the environment to their advantage!"

Left 4 Dead 2? "...I just wanna use a chainsaw on Byleth, man."

 

[DarthEnderX]

Uh, Ridley feels fine and rather true to the source material.

If Ridley was true to the source material, he'd be a Boss and not a Fighter.

and I like how Trainer allows for representation of human characters in Pokemon

Any Pokemon Fighter could have a Trainer. They don't actually DO anything.

what exactly happened to all those vocal Ridley haters / detractors?

I mean, once he's in, he's in.

He should have stayed a Boss. But he didn't. There's really nothing else to say.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I wish people dropped the "they made this character out of obligation and it shows!" narrative in general.
There's nothing wrong with Ridley's moveset or portrayal, he's just not as linear to play as other heavyweights. And he could use a couple of buffs, but that's another matter.
Same thing happens with Banjo, even pro players very rarely know what they're saying when they talk about these characters tbh.
Curiously, the one low tier fan requested character who gets spared from this is K. Rool, I guess because he's the only one who actually lets you go "ahah crown goes vrrrr"?
But game balancing doesn't factor into character portrayal, and just because a character was requested doesn't mean they all have to be easy to pick up and play, nor that they all should play pure rushdown like Mario or Bowser.

Ridley is meant to keep a certain distance from his opponent thanks to his speed and to his decently long-ranged tilts, as well as his gigantic neutral aerial.
Then, once he gets an opening, his whole kit starts to really shine as he finally gets time to use his specials (which are all great to keep him in advantage) and the short range on his f-air stops being a hindrance - move is actually pretty great. Even his air dominance only really comes into play after Ridley gets the advantage, where three jumps and good range on most of his aerials become enough to offset his poor air speed and make him an oppressive presence.
The lack of super armor is meant to encourage this patient, predator-like play style. Keep your distance until you find and opening and then you can go all in.
Then of course, Ridley's weaknesses hold him back a little too much. Mostly because his recovery is predictable and it's just too hard for him to actually get in against certain characters. I believe with just a little more air speed and a faster neutral B (dude needs some way to cover his approaches) most of his issues would be solved tbh.

But yeah. They actually put a lot of thought into giving Ridley a playstyle that suits his character, and it also works, he's just low tier lol. But it's not like they made him out of obligation and just slapped some random moves on him.
Same thing with Banjo. That character also has a ton of cool stuff if you actually dig for it.

Welp. Sorry for the wall of text

 

[DarthEnderX]

I wish people dropped the "they made this character out of obligation and it shows!" narrative in general.

When they stop making characters out of obligation in a noticeable way, I will.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Super Monkey Ball? "It would be really cool to see a physics-based fighter that can deal more damage the harder they launch themselves into opponents. Maybe they could use slopes in the environment to their advantage!"

Alternately - AiAi (who, let's be honest, it'd presumably be) can control the movement of the stage itself, but can't be controlled. When multiple AiAis are on the stage at once, you have to fight your opponent in order to literally gain control over the stage.

 

[osby]

When they stop making characters out of obligation in a noticeable way, I will.

Every fighter I dislike is added purely out of obligation and it shows in their sloppy design, while every fighter I like is full of details that show the dev team's passion for them.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Only fighter in Smash who even remotely feels like they’re here out of obligation to me is Joker and I know that isn’t the case because I simply dislike Joker and am able to admit I am biased. But since this Conversation is dumb, I’m going to propose a new question.
If the Wonder Flower gets added as an Item, what cool Wonder Effects could we get for each Smash Stage? Crossovers are allowed for this. Either way go wild.

 

[fogbadge]

all are executed in a way that makes perfect canonical sense

well we can't have things making sense in smash

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Only fighter in Smash who even remotely feels like they’re here out of obligation to me is Joker and I know that isn’t the case because I simply dislike Joker and am able to admit I am biased. But since this Conversation is dumb, I’m going to propose a new question.
If the Wonder Flower gets added as an Item, what cool Wonder Effects could we get for each Smash Stage? Crossovers are allowed for this. Either way go wild.

I feel it'd be more likely for us to see a "Flower Kingdom" stage of some kind, presumably with a Wonder Flower gimmick unique to it. Though, I'd hope it'd replace some previous "grassy plain" type stages from the Mario series - some ore visual variety would be nice.

 

[NintenRob]

Only fighter in Smash who even remotely feels like they’re here out of obligation to me is Joker and I know that isn’t the case because I simply dislike Joker and am able to admit I am biased. But since this Conversation is dumb, I’m going to propose a new question.
If the Wonder Flower gets added as an Item, what cool Wonder Effects could we get for each Smash Stage? Crossovers are allowed for this. Either way go wild.

I feel like if Wonder flower was an item, it's effect would need to be something that is universal I think. Maybe it could be something like shadow stages, or fast/slow movement. Maybe cause a bunch of Smash balls to appear for ultimate chaos

 

[JOJONumber691]

Yeah. Bowser’s Castle in particular would be a great fit for this type of Mario Wonder Stage given how it operates in Mario Wonder.

I feel it'd be more likely for us to see a "Flower Kingdom" stage of some kind, presumably with a Wonder Flower gimmick unique to it. Though, I'd hope it'd replace some previous "grassy plain" type stages from the Mario series - some ore visual variety would be nice.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel it'd be more likely for us to see a "Flower Kingdom" stage of some kind, presumably with a Wonder Flower gimmick unique to it. Though, I'd hope it'd replace some previous "grassy plain" type stages from the Mario series - some ore visual variety would be nice.

I feel like if Wonder flower was an item, it's effect would need to be something that is universal I think. Maybe it could be something like shadow stages, or fast/slow movement. Maybe cause a bunch of Smash balls to appear for ultimate chaos

I'm gonna go with KOJ's idea here. Stage specific items/triggers do exist in Smash(see: the Summons in the Midgar stage).

Having Wonder Flowers as triggers that cause weird things that happen in a Flower Kingdom stage seems much more fitting than having a generic item that just does one specific thing on every stage.

Only fighter in Smash who even remotely feels like they’re here out of obligation to me is Joker and I know that isn’t the case because I simply dislike Joker and am able to admit I am biased.

The most obligated character in Smash is Byleth.

 

[Mamboo07]

I feel it'd be more likely for us to see a "Flower Kingdom" stage of some kind, presumably with a Wonder Flower gimmick unique to it. Though, I'd hope it'd replace some previous "grassy plain" type stages from the Mario series - some ore visual variety would be nice.

A travelling stage where the fighters go to each area which get affected by the flower's effects.

 

[PeridotGX]

If Ridley was true to the source material, he'd be a Boss and not a Fighter.

Any Pokemon Fighter could have a Trainer. They don't actually DO anything.

I mean, once he's in, he's in.

He should have stayed a Boss. But he didn't. There's really nothing else to say.

Why would you want a character to be a boss instead of playable? It seems like an objective downgrade to me.

 

[NintenRob]

I'm gonna go with KOJ's idea here. Stage specific items/triggers do exist in Smash(see: the Summons in the Midgar stage).

Having Wonder Flowers as triggers that cause weird things that happen in a Flower Kingdom stage seems much more fitting than having a generic item that just does one specific thing on every stage.

Oh I agree, it's certainly more fitting as something specific to a flower kingdom stage. But that wasn't the question I was answering.

 

[Gengar84]

I know some people here are opposed to the idea of more transform characters, but for those that are open to more, are there any specific duos you’d like to see? I think there is still a lot of room to play around with in this space. We don’t have any characters that perform combo attacks upon switching in and out like many team based fighters do or other team based attacks like the pairings in the DKC games. I’ve already talked about a few I’d love to see but I’m interested in hearing from anyone else.

 

[NintenRob]

I know some people here are opposed to the idea of more transform characters, but for those that are open to more, are there any specific duos you’d like to see? I think there is still a lot of room to play around with in this space. We don’t have any characters that perform combo attacks upon switching in and out like many team based fighters do or other team based attacks like the pairings in the DKC games. I’ve already talked about a few I’d love to see but I’m interested in hearing from anyone else.

I used to be obsessed with the idea of a "Masked Link" from Majora's Mask. Switching between Deku, Goron and Zora Link. It would obviously never happen but I thought it would be so cool.

 

[Gengar84]

I used to be obsessed with the idea of a "Masked Link" from Majora's Mask. Switching between Deku, Goron and Zora Link. It would obviously never happen but I thought it would be so cool.

That would be a really cool and unique way to represent Young Link if they want to declone him. I feel like that’s probably the way to go. He could transform into Fierce Deity Link for the Final Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

I know some people here are opposed to the idea of more transform characters, but for those that are open to more, are there any specific duos you’d like to see? I think there is still a lot of room to play around with in this space. We don’t have any characters that perform combo attacks upon switching in and out like many team based fighters do or other team based attacks like the pairings in the DKC games. I’ve already talked about a few I’d love to see but I’m interested in hearing from anyone else.

well pardon me for beating the same old drum but I’d like Rex to be included with pythra. maybe mio and noah

I used to be obsessed with the idea of a "Masked Link" from Majora's Mask. Switching between Deku, Goron and Zora Link. It would obviously never happen but I thought it would be so cool.

and this

 

[Gengar84]

well pardon me for beating the same old drum but I’d like Rex to be included with pythra. maybe mio and noah



and this

I feel like in that scenario, Rex would have been the sole playable fighter and Pythra would be standing in the background like Pokemon Trainer and connecting to him with beams of light and changing up Rex’s moveset when he swaps between them. Mythra was only playable in Torna and that game didn’t have Rex and Pyra was never actually controllable. Rex as the playable with the others as support would have definitely been more faithful to how Xenoblade 2 played but I’m happy with what we got since I’ve never been a big Rex fan. I can sympathize with the people that really liked Rex and were looking forward to him being playable.

Noah and Mio seem like a pretty good bet for most likely duo character though in their specific case, I personally think it would be more interesting to have their (Noah’s) Ouroboros fusion as the playable since we just had a transform duo Xenoblade character. I’d still rather have them as a traditional duo than as an individual character so I’ll be happy if that’s what they go with, it’s just the less interesting option to me.

 

[fogbadge]

I feel like in that scenario, Rex would have been the sole playable fighter and Pythra would be standing in the background like Pokemon Trainer and connecting to him with beams of light and changing up Rex’s moveset when he swaps between them. Mythra was only playable in Torna and that game didn’t have Rex and Pyra was never actually controllable.

Noah and Mio seem like a pretty good bet for most likely duo character though in their specific case, I personally think it would be more interesting to have their (Noah’s) Ouroboros fusion as the playable since we just had a transform duo Xenoblade character. I’d still rather have them as a traditional duo than as an individual character so I’ll be happy if that’s what they go with, it’s just the less interesting option to me.

well sakurai did say he considered having Rex as part of the transformation

 

[FazDude]

I know some people here are opposed to the idea of more transform characters, but for those that are open to more, are there any specific duos you’d like to see? I think there is still a lot of room to play around with in this space. We don’t have any characters that perform combo attacks upon switching in and out like many team based fighters do or other team based attacks like the pairings in the DKC games. I’ve already talked about a few I’d love to see but I’m interested in hearing from anyone else.

My top pick in that category is the Squid Sisters (or any of the Splatoon idol groups, really). Wouldn't mind a Diddy/Dixie team, and I woulda greatly prefered Rex with the Aegis over what we got.

 

[Gengar84]

well sakurai did say he considered having Rex as part of the transformation

That would have been kind of strange to me personally but I guess so is what we got. Neither option really fit the mechanics of the source. My guess is that Pythra were just a lot more popular as characters compared to Rex so that’s why Sakurai went with them. Kind of like how we got Min-Min instead of Spring Man despite the latter being the cover boy. I personally wanted Nia and Dromarch over either Pythra or Rex but she was always going to be a long shot at best.

I do admit I’m just biased against Rex because I personally didn’t care for the character. He would have objectively made the most sense for a Xenoblade 2 rep so I totally understand why so many are unhappy with what we got.

 

[fogbadge]

That would have been kind of strange to me personally but I guess so is what we got. Neither option really fit the mechanics of the source. My guess is that Pythra were just a lot more popular as characters compared to Rex so that’s why Sakurai went with them. Kind of like how we got Min-Min instead of Spring Man despite the latter being the cover boy. I personally wanted Nia and Dromarch over either Pythra or Rex but she was always going to be a long shot at best.

well according to sak min min was the pick of the arms director and by all accounts pythra was just what he wanted

 

[Gengar84]

well according to sak min min was the pick of the arms director and by all accounts pythra was just what he wanted

Yeah, I did notice that Sakurai seemed to have a particular affinity for Pythra from some of his videos. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with letting him make a few personal picks since he’s the one making the game but I get why some don’t care for that.

 

[NintenRob]

I feel like Sakurai wanted to do something more akin to Ice Climbers and have both on the field but the characters were too complicated for it. So when sizing down, he opted to keep Pyra and Mythra because

Switching characters better visually conveys the idea of the Moveset (fire strong, light fast)
Switching characters is just more fun than swapping weapons.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Yeah, I did notice that Sakurai seemed to have a particular affinity for Pythra from some of his videos. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with letting him make a few personal picks since he’s the one making the game but I get why some don’t care for that.

It's more than just "he likes Pyra".

In the end, it would been Rex solo since Pyra could not be on the battlefield with him to support or Pyra with Mythra as a mid-battle swap.
And he went with the far more appealing and fun option in spite of what people salty over Rex or people with violent allergies to transformation gimmicks think.

 

[Gengar84]

I feel like Sakurai wanted to do something more akin to Ice Climbers and have both on the field but the characters were too complicated for it. So when sizing down, he opted to keep Pyra and Mythra because

Switching characters better visually conveys the idea of the Moveset (fire strong, light fast)
Switching characters is just more fun than swapping weapons.

If that’s the case (which seems very plausible), I wonder if that’s a bad sign for Officer Howard and their Legion. I really enjoyed Astral Chain and I think Howard would be a really fun character in Smash but could potentially be too complex mechanic wise. My favorite character from that game is Jenna Anderson and I feel like her only chance is if they really want an Astral Chain character and for some reason they can’t make Howard work or want to give us two characters. Unfortunately, I think she’s even more of a long shot than Nia so I’ll take Officer Howard if Sakurai can make them work.

It's more than just "he likes Pyra".

In the end, it would been Rex solo since Pyra could not be on the battlefield with him to support or Pyra with Mythra as a mid-battle swap.
And he went with the far more appealing and fun option in spite of what people salty over Rex or people with violent allergies to transformation gimmicks think.

I think you’re right there but I won’t rule out that his personal preference could have played some part in the decision. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing if that’s the case because it gives us some interesting characters we wouldn’t have seen otherwise. I don’t think any other director would have given us Piranha Plant for example. I’m personally happier with what we got than if they went with Rex.