Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SPEN18]

I've pretty much always felt that Charizard should be able to stand on his own without being attached to Trainer, and was glad that's exactly what we got in 4. There's not really another trio that makes sense for Trainer without him, so I'd hate to think he might end up stuck perpetually in that role. Likewise, I feel Squirtle and the like should have to get in on their own merits, not as part of a trio gimmick; and there is an argument for Squirtle and someone from the saur line, for sure, but I like to consider them as individual candidates when, for example, I make my own rosters. Not sure how the devs will do it, though. Probably they'll determine in the project plan stages if they can afford to do the whole Trainer, and if not they'll make solo Zard like before. Maybe even work the most on Zard first so that they can change course if it looks like they won't be able to finish.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Dude it's insane these people buy "riggs" that motion capture you and real time animate their avatar as they navigate an actual 3d game space. They also stream let's plays and it's HUGE community and these folks get paid it's their side job and for some truly dedicated it's a living but like there's also massive fraud and massive begging lol I just follow the artwork cause some of it is quite beautiful. Artwork itself has transformed into amazing new territory with all this tech and it also has infused a strong dynamic of "purism" due to AI being seen as a crutch or cheating... fascinating stuff. I need to read up more on what the Smash artists' setup is like because obviously Smash some amazing visuals of its own.

I genuinely cant tell if this is a bit or not with how popular Vtbures are in current year.


Its such a popular thing that a vtuber is set to be an important character in Yakuza 8

 

[BuckleyTim]

Also to keep this tangentially on topic, did you know that the Japanese Version of Sonic Frontiers had Free DLC that gave Sonic Korone Themed Stuff, including Sound Effects? No? Well here’s proof that’s a thing.

Still not big on Vtubing, but this kinda collab is a definite step up from the days when Sonic's twitter would collab with Arin Hanson and Jacksepticeye, lol

So that’s basically what Arlo is.

Oh good lord, you've hit the nail on the head. Arlo is a Vtuber for people too young to know what Vtubers are.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Tbh Irish the Hedgehog is actually a decent character. The other stuff is annoying though.

 

[Gengar84]

Still not big on Vtubing, but this kinda collab is a definite step up from the days when Sonic's twitter would collab with Arin Hanson and Jacksepticeye, lol



Oh good lord, you've hit the nail on the head. Arlo is a Vtuber for people too young to know what Vtubers are.

lol I’m almost 40 and I watch Arlo but blanked on what a v tuber is. I’m definitely aware of them now that I’m reminded but I think I’m in the opposite camp. When I do watch a streamer, it’s usually ShadyPenguinn who doesn’t use any kind of avatar. Not that there’s anything wrong with that either.

 

[Sucumbio]

I genuinely cant tell if this is a bit or not with how popular Vtbures are in current year.


Its such a popular thing that a vtuber is set to be an important character in Yakuza 8

Nope I'm like Gengar84 I didn't even start using Twitter until a few months before Elon bought it and changed the name lol. I am a message board person I don't even like texting.

 

[Gengar84]

Nope I'm like Gengar84 I didn't even start using Twitter until a few months before Elon bought it and changed the name lol. I am a message board person I don't even like texting.

I’ve still never used Twitter and I definitely don’t ever intend to now that Elon bought it.

 

[AreJay25]

Look, Pokemon Trainer's dope and all, but Smash 4 Charizard was easily one of the most fun characters in that game imo. I'm completely fine with solo Zard if it has to come down to it.

Plus.

Spoiler

I miss it. I miss it so much. We were stripped of our former glory. Why has Sakurai forsaken us.

 

[Louie G.]

I miss it. I miss it so much. We were stripped of our former glory. Why has Sakurai forsaken us.

I guess now I should ask, is Rock Smash a move people actually like or do we just pretend because it's kinda dumb and goofy? Don't wanna be the stick in the mud here but I've had a hard time gauging how serious people are about this.

I remember some people being oddly persistent about how the absence of a solo Charizard with Rock Smash meant we weren't actually complete, as if that's his signature move or something. Personally I always found it to be kind of an uninspired choice and even in the instance that Charizard is solo again, I'd like if they replaced it with something that prioritizes Charizard's core abilities better. Like a dive bomb attack to give him a new aerial threat factor, something like that rather than what could effectively just be a side smash at this point if they REALLY wanted to keep it around.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m one of the few strong supporters of transformation characters and I love Pokémon Trainer as is but I’d accept solo Charizard if we also got solo Blastoise. Blastoise is my brother’s favorite Pokémon and second most wanted for Smash after the Battletoads.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I guess now I should ask, is Rock Smash a move people actually like or do we just pretend because it's kinda dumb and goofy? Don't wanna be the stick in the mud here but I've had a hard time gauging how serious people are about this.

I remember some people being oddly persistent about how the absence of a solo Charizard with Rock Smash meant we weren't actually complete, as if that's his signature move or something. Personally I always found it to be kind of an uninspired choice and even in the instance that Charizard is solo again, I'd like if they replaced it with something that prioritizes Charizard's core abilities better. Like a dive bomb attack to give him a new aerial threat factor, something like that rather than what could effectively just be a side smash at this point if they REALLY wanted to keep it around.

Rock Smash is both a meme move and a vital move to his kit. It lets him armor through attacks making it a pseudo counter and gives Charizard a much needed landing option.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I loved Rock Smash in Brawl because it let you decimate bosses.
Actually, I still like it more than Flare Blitz tbh, but the latter fits his kit better I think.

 

[Will]

I guess now I should ask, is Rock Smash a move people actually like or do we just pretend because it's kinda dumb and goofy? Don't wanna be the stick in the mud here but I've had a hard time gauging how serious people are about this.

I remember some people being oddly persistent about how the absence of a solo Charizard with Rock Smash meant we weren't actually complete, as if that's his signature move or something. Personally I always found it to be kind of an uninspired choice and even in the instance that Charizard is solo again, I'd like if they replaced it with something that prioritizes Charizard's core abilities better. Like a dive bomb attack to give him a new aerial threat factor, something like that rather than what could effectively just be a side smash at this point if they REALLY wanted to keep it around.

It’s unique. I like that.

 

[UserKev]

I've pretty much always felt that Charizard should be able to stand on his own without being attached to Trainer, and was glad that's exactly what we got in 4. There's not really another trio that makes sense for Trainer without him, so I'd hate to think he might end up stuck perpetually in that role. Likewise, I feel Squirtle and the like should have to get in on their own merits, not as part of a trio gimmick; and there is an argument for Squirtle and someone from the saur line, for sure, but I like to consider them as individual candidates when, for example, I make my own rosters. Not sure how the devs will do it, though. Probably they'll determine in the project plan stages if they can afford to do the whole Trainer, and if not they'll make solo Zard like before. Maybe even work the most on Zard first so that they can change course if it looks like they won't be able to finish.

I actually really miss solo Charizard in Wii U/ 3DS. That game is getting more special the more I think about booting it up again. I'm in a tiny minority here who loathe the Pokemon Trainer concept.

 

[HyperSomari64]

2030 smashboards will point and laugh at the "no fourth parties" "rule" as we eagerly await the addition of the newest booster pack, containing meta knight, a playable msx system, hideo kojima himself, the entire cast of cyborg 009, and shrek (due to his "high presence" on the smash ballot)

Laughs in 2050 SmashBoards with it's Booster Pack that includes Skeletor, Jeffy, a Ferrari Testarossa as the echo fighter for Hornet (Daytona USA), Richard Watterson, and Pichu.

 

[AreJay25]

I guess now I should ask, is Rock Smash a move people actually like or do we just pretend because it's kinda dumb and goofy? Don't wanna be the stick in the mud here but I've had a hard time gauging how serious people are about this.

I remember some people being oddly persistent about how the absence of a solo Charizard with Rock Smash meant we weren't actually complete, as if that's his signature move or something. Personally I always found it to be kind of an uninspired choice and even in the instance that Charizard is solo again, I'd like if they replaced it with something that prioritizes Charizard's core abilities better. Like a dive bomb attack to give him more aerial threats, something like that rather than what could effectively just be a side smash at this point if they REALLY wanted to keep it around.

It was just a pretty fun move to use in Smash 4. It had super armor that allowed him to contest things in ways that other moves couldn't, and it had some nifty movement options on top of that.

Like, yeah, is it thematically fitting for him? Nah, not entirely. But it was just a neat move that he lost in the transition to Ultimate that felt like a good tool for a heavyweight character. I wouldn't mind it becoming a "different move" that basically has the same properties.

 

[Gengar84]

I actually really miss solo Charizard in Wii U/ 3DS. That game is getting more special the more I think about booting it up again. I'm in a tiny minority here who loathe the Pokemon Trainer concept.

I feel like there’s a general sentiment that people don’t like transform characters. I personally find them more fun because they give you so many more options and give us characters that might not have gotten in on their own. I always feel like in the one in the minority here.

 

[Sucumbio]

I guess now I should ask, is Rock Smash a move people actually like or do we just pretend because it's kinda dumb and goofy? Don't wanna be the stick in the mud here but I've had a hard time gauging how serious people are about this.

I remember some people being oddly persistent about how the absence of a solo Charizard with Rock Smash meant we weren't actually complete, as if that's his signature move or something. Personally I always found it to be kind of an uninspired choice and even in the instance that Charizard is solo again, I'd like if they replaced it with something that prioritizes Charizard's core abilities better. Like a dive bomb attack to give him a new aerial threat factor, something like that rather than what could effectively just be a side smash at this point if they REALLY wanted to keep it around.

It was my favorite move in Brawl. I didn't use him in 4 because I 2qs terrible with him lol. But in Brawl I used him the most because he had such attitude like that stomp! stomp! taunt heh but! Flare Blitz I don't wanna lose that so... Blarg. Maybe make them all playable individually like DarthEnderX suggests but also the Trainer version? Somehow that screams 4 slots gone to please 2 people but maybe it's not like that ? I have no idea but at the least I think Charizard should be playable and yes I would truly appreciate Rock Smash being a move again ...

Oh maybe this is how we get Kubfu!

 

[Louie G.]

I actually really miss solo Charizard in Wii U/ 3DS. That game is getting more special the more I think about booting it up again. I'm in a tiny minority here who loathe the Pokemon Trainer concept.

I'm not as dazzled by the simple idea of swapping from one character to another as a lot of the fanbase seem to be (some probably still believe it to be sort of a cheat to get more characters, which is obviously not how it works) but I think Pokemon Trainer is a very clever way to represent Pokemon in particular, and is the vessel that gives us Squirtle and Ivysaur who are individually very fun.

Having three characters allows for a bit more coverage than the simple one-two switch also. Pyra and Mythra are IMO the best execution of this idea because it's effectively more of a stance change than anything, whereas Zelda and Sheik were a novel concept with pretty incompatible execution. Those characters did not work well off of one another, but at least Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon do have deliberate chemistry. Again though I think I'm favorable toward this particular execution just because of the greater representation of its home series and I don't think it would really work on anyone else.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

The best way to become a friend on the forum is to join in the conversation. But these things take time. We barely know each other as of now. It's best to play it slow and see which users you mesh with. And that takes a fair bit of time. I am also confident in saying that we will in fact have more than two stages from recent games.

EDIT: That was supposed to be quoting Clem.

I still don’t even know you are…

Oh right, Smash speculation, I am predicting that in a near future game we will I fact have several characters from various Nintendo first party IPs with, and quote me, at least one third party newcomer who has an undeniable connection to Nintendo within the last thirty years.

I got a feeling my predictions are accurate.

 

[Gengar84]

Why don’t we just move the transformation to a shield special or taunt? That seems like it would solve the issue for both parties. People that only wanted to use one character wouldn’t feel handicapped missing a move and people that liked the transformation gimmick have a free bonus move.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I saw Dark Souls mentioned.

I remember when Knight Artorias was part of a "leak".
Kinda wish it actually happened and I don't even Dark Souls.
I just like the idea of a one-armed berserker knight.

 

[Louie G.]

Why don’t we just move the transformation to a shield special or taunt?

Being able to smoothly swap midair was one of the most exciting things about Pokemon Trainer's return, so I don't think that sacrifice would be worth it. A tool to string together creative aerial combos and to recover - one of the main reasons you would want to switch in the first place - are pretty invaluable to Pokemon Trainer as he currently stands. It's a nice thought but unless the aerial mechanics are reworked next game I don't think it's gonna fly.

 

[SPEN18]

Hm, if you replace it with a dive bomb type of move like Louie G. suggested, could you design it as an alternative landing option, and give it an armor quality if used on the ground or something maybe?

 

[Gengar84]

Being able to smoothly swap midair was one of the most exciting things about Pokemon Trainer's return, so I don't think that sacrifice would be worth it. A tool to string together creative aerial combos and to recover - one of the main reasons you would want to switch in the first place - are pretty invaluable to Pokemon Trainer as he currently stands. It's a nice thought but unless the aerial mechanics are reworked next game I don't think it's gonna fly.

Good point there. I feel like there could still be some kind of good workaround but a shield special wouldn’t work for that. They could still put the transformation on the taunt input and just let you use that particular taunt midair and make an exception to still be able to use that taunt online.

 

[Ivander]

A bit late to the V-tuber talk, but I don't dislike them or mind them. I don't look at them much, but it's not so much different than role-playing on an MMO or someone like Arlo. And sometimes I look at some videos with them regards to video game playthroughs depending on the game.

But part of the reason I don't really watch them is that right now for most V-tubers, the animations are pretty rigid, stiff and awkward and it can be jarring. With how they can't fully turn left, right, up and down, how most need to manually activate certain expressions, etc. Kizuna Ai was fascinating the first time around and part of what helped was how very smooth her animations were for the most part. And part of that was because of an actual animation team helping with the movements and whatnot.
Whereas most V-tubers nowadays, because of the reliance on camera rigging and most of it being done with a 2D image, there's often a feeling of no depth perception to their movements. Like I'm not asking for dynamic movement like 360 twirling, kickflips, etc. But I'd like to see when they are turning their head left and right to actually look like they are turning their head left and right, instead of their face looking like it's getting squishier and squishier the more they turn to the left and right.
---
That stuff aside, I like the Pokemon Trainer concept. While I think an option for a Solo Pokemon choice would be cool, I like the Trainers themselves and do like how their gameplay is handled in Smash Bros. And while they miss out on a move because of the switching mechanic, I feel the Switching is alot more powerful in Ultimate because if you time it well, you can completely avoid attacks with it and sometimes counter.

 

[SPEN18]

Why don’t we just move the transformation to a shield special or taunt? That seems like it would solve the issue for both parties. People that only wanted to use one character wouldn’t feel handicapped missing a move and people that liked the transformation gimmick have a free bonus move.

One issue is that as long as the transform option is available, the characters involved have to be balanced around it.
In this case, I actually think Charizard's potential as a Smash fighter hasn't been fully realized yet. Being part of the Trainer arguably restricts him to a more rigid and generic "heavy flier" role whose strengths and weaknesses have to be covered by his partners, whereas by himself I feel there is more you can do with him, or at least it's more liberating design- and balance-wise.

 

[Louie G.]

Hm, if you replace it with a dive bomb type of move like Louie G. suggested, could you design it as an alternative landing option, and give it an armor quality if used on the ground or something maybe?

If it was used on the ground, I suspect it would probably rise up before crashing down. So maybe on the rising animation, Charizard would have armor... but then it kinda just feels like Fly with extra steps. Thinking it over I guess that would be three different specials where Charizard is sorta just thrusting itself in some way or another. With that in mind I'd be open to just giving Fly or Flare Blitz a new property to approach at different angles or follow through with a secondary input that prompts a dive after ascension.

I want to keep brainstorming ways to work with Charizard, because if he does return as a solo fighter he's just a little bit underwhelming as is. I'd like to see him get some more sauce through aerial acrobatics, more flashy fire effects, I dunno. He's fun enough to play but compare to similar fighters like Bowser or Ridley and he's just kind of stale bread.

 

[Gengar84]

One issue is that as long as the transform option is available, the characters involved have to be balanced around it.
In this case, I actually think Charizard's potential as a Smash fighter hasn't been fully realized yet. Being part of the Trainer arguably restricts him to a more rigid and generic "heavy flier" role whose strengths and weaknesses have to be covered by his partners, whereas by himself I feel there is more you can do with him, or at least it's more liberating design- and balance-wise.

Yeah, that’s a valid point. I personally think the compromise is worth it but I totally understand that complaint. Charizard did always feel a bit strange being so heavy and slow when it has base 100 speed in the mainline games. I think it actually would have worked better if they went with Blastoise and Venusaur over Squirtle and Ivysaur. Blastoise and Venusaur work better as the slower tanks and could allow Charizard to better portray its agility in the games.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Being able to smoothly swap midair was one of the most exciting things about Pokemon Trainer's return, so I don't think that sacrifice would be worth it. A tool to string together creative aerial combos and to recover - one of the main reasons you would want to switch in the first place - are pretty invaluable to Pokemon Trainer as he currently stands. It's a nice thought but unless the aerial mechanics are reworked next game I don't think it's gonna fly.

They could move the Pokémon swap to Shield + B (Steve's also works in mid-air), but I've always felt like they give transformation characters one less special move in part as a balancing factor. Since you have access to multiple movesets at any time, it makes sense that the individual ones are a little less versatile.
For example, Rock Smash is a defensive move, but the designated defensive Pokémon in the Trainer's arsenal is Ivysaur I think. Charizard's role is usually to close stocks instead, so the all-or-nothing Flare Blitz fits his role better, or at least I think that's why he has that instead of Rock Smash now.

 

[SPEN18]

I think it actually would have worked better if they went with Blastoise and Venusaur over Squirtle and Ivysaur. Blastoise and Venusaur work better as the slower tanks and could allow Charizard to better portray its agility in the games.

That's actually a pretty funny thought, thinking of an alternate scenario in which Charizard is the fast and agile member of the trio

 

[osby]

Charizard isn't slow to balance Bulbasaur and Ivysaur.

Charizard is slow because all the big and heavy characters in Smash are slow (to a degree). That's why he isn't simply much faster than his Brawl and Ultimate counterparts in Smash 4. It's still one of the more mobile superheavy characters in the roster.

 

[Gengar84]

Charizard isn't slow to balance Bulbasaur and Ivysaur.

Charizard is slow because all the big and heavy characters in Smash are slow (to a degree). That's why he isn't simply much faster than his Brawl and Ultimate counterparts in Smash 4. It's still one of the more mobile superheavy characters in the roster.

That makes sense too. Charizard didn’t have to be as heavy hitting as it is now to balance out the increased speed. Its offensive stats in Pokemon are decent but nothing amazing. I feel like a faster, mid powered fighter would have better portrayed how it plays in the mainline games. You’re probably right though. Ridley also feels a bit weird being so sluggish and it doesn’t have the transformation excuse Charizard has.

 

[Louie G.]

You’re probably right though. Ridley also feels a bit weird being so sluggish and it doesn’t have the transformation excuse Charizard has.

I hope they realize next game that they don't need to overcompensate on this so much. I love playing Ridley, he's one of my favorite characters, but he feels hindered by a fear that making any of those traits a little bit more powerful would make him too good. As is you have jarringly long startup and cooldown periods, only three jumps, slightly kneecapped air speed. I hope these are growing pains and that next game will let Ridley come into his own a bit more, because somewhere within here is a REALLY good character that they were too scared to let spread his wings.

That being said, Charizard and Ridley are somewhere around Top 10 ground speeds in the game. So at least that counts for something, but it's the air speed where I think that's especially being felt.

 

[UserKev]

I'm not as dazzled by the simple idea of swapping from one character to another as a lot of the fanbase seem to be (some probably still believe it to be sort of a cheat to get more characters, which is obviously not how it works) but I think Pokemon Trainer is a very clever way to represent Pokemon in particular, and is the vessel that gives us Squirtle and Ivysaur who are individually very fun.

Having three characters allows for a bit more coverage than the simple one-two switch also. Pyra and Mythra are IMO the best execution of this idea because it's effectively more of a stance change than anything, whereas Zelda and Sheik were a novel concept with pretty incompatible execution. Those characters did not work well off of one another, but at least Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon do have deliberate chemistry. Again though I think I'm favorable toward this particular execution just because of the greater representation of its home series and I don't think it would really work on anyone else.

I don't not like transforming characters. Pokemon Trainer takes away the charm and headcanon of having a random Pokemon participate in a free for all. Pokemon Trainer is essentially, "Hey, a princess. I want to see how she fights. Go! Charizard!" It's pretty forced, even in Smash case. I think Smash is the wrong place, wrong time for the gimmick that makes it kinda like breaking immersion.

Pokemon Trainer should be an automatic threat and attack-able into a fight of his own by the silliness of Smash's nature. He's a fourth wall that Master Hand already perfectly represents.

 

[Gengar84]

I hope they realize next game that they don't need to overcompensate on this so much. I love playing Ridley, he's one of my favorite characters, but he feels hindered by a fear that making any of those traits a little bit more powerful would make him too good. As is you have jarringly long startup and cooldown periods, only three jumps, slightly kneecapped air speed. I hope these are growing pains and that next game will let Ridley come into his own a bit more, because somewhere within here is a REALLY good character that they were too scared to let spread his wings.

That being said, Charizard and Ridley are somewhere around Top 10 ground speeds in the game. So at least that counts for something.

The main thing I want for Ridley is a proper eight direction up special like Fox has. Ridley’s definitely takes some getting used to when I’m still so accustomed to Fox’s.

 

[Louie G.]

The main thing I want for Ridley is a proper eight direction up special like Fox has. Ridley’s definitely takes some getting used to when I’m still so accustomed to Fox’s.

I'm unsure how I feel about this at the moment because I agreed with this for a while, but I also don't want it to feel too derivative. On the other hand, the current "star" angle it has going on is a little bit strange and arbitrary and feels almost like it's doing a little too much to convince you that it's different. I suppose the angle limitations are a justified handicap given how strong the move is and those pretty wild spikes you can go for offstage, but I agree that it's somewhat awkward and a little susceptible for misinput at times. I think it needs work but I'm unsure how much I'd overhaul it.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

As a Pokemon trainer main feels weird to see so many people wanting them gone.

I prefer playing as Squirtle and Ivysaur over Charizard

 

[Perkilator]

On the subject of Pokémon Trainer, I still maintain the 3-Pokémon team should’ve been Totodile, Grovyle and Charizard.

 

[Gengar84]

My preferred approach for transformation characters are if they play around covering each other’s weaknesses. One example I’ve used for this is Alphen and Shionne from Tales of Arise. Alphen is a heavy hitting swordsman who powers up his sword with flames that drain his own health by holding the attack button during the move. He’s great at knocking out opponents but he’d have some difficulty approaching and not dealing too much to himself in the process. Shionne is a gunner and uses healing magic. While her attacks don’t pack anywhere the same punch as Alphen’s, she excels at dealing fast chip damage and healing up (which would have to be properly balanced of course). The two work as a team from a flavor standpoint as well since Alphen isn’t able to use his flames without Shionne’s help.

This concept could also extend to other characters like Dixie/Kiddy, Vi/Caitlyn, or Yasuo/Ahri. The Tales and LoL pairings could all have team attacks upon switching in and out which would set them apart from the others in Smash and the DK characters can pick each other up and throw the inactive Kong either as an attack or additional recovery option. The tag mechanics were a big part of the gameplay of DKC and LoL has always been about team based battles. The LoL fighting game in development also uses team battles similar to something like Marvel vs Capcom.