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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Scrimblo Bimblo

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 30, 2023
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408
Ridley is actually not slow at all. He's very fast on the ground, and all his normal and smash moves also come out relatively fast, especially for the range and power that they also have.
His special moves are very slow though, and the only move that has any business being that slow is his side B (make it fast and it becomes the most obnoxious move in the game). And yeah his air speed is poor. That's what really holds him back.
Improve his air speed, make up B faster and maybe give him some plausibile Skewer set-ups and he's high tier 👍 wouldn't mind a real down aerial too.

Even his up B is mostly held back by how long it takes for it to start up and by Ridley's poor air speed. The fact that it can only move you in four specific angles makes it super predictable. But if it was faster, and if Ridley had more recovery options, the fixed angles wouldn't be a problem imo
 
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Gengar84

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Dec 9, 2009
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On the flip side, I do wish they hadn’t made Bowser smaller and faster. I get that it makes him better competitively but he loses a lot of his intimidating presence in the process. I would have preferred they find some other way to buff him while keeping his general feel.
 

Louie G.

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His special moves are very slow though, and the only move that has any business being so slow is his side B (make it fast and it becomes the most obnoxious move in the game). And yeah his air speed is poor. That's what really holds him back.
Yeah, this is what I meant. Ridley has a surprisingly good dash speed but his air speed and the extra startup / cooldown added to his specials can make him feel slow and heavy at times. It's not as if Ridley is bad in the air or anything, but I think more focus should be put on improving that since if there's anything Ridley should be, it's an absolute terror in the sky.

I'd honestly just be satisfied if they gave him an extra jump or two, three jumps does not cut it in my opinion and with how telegraphed both his recovery tools are he could use an additional mixup. Getting back to stage as Ridley of all characters shouldn't be too much of a struggle, but at least his aerial combo game is strong and a lot of fun.
 
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BuckleyTim

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
106
as a coda to the vtuber discussion-

is geno a vtuber? think about it, the form we all known and love is merely a puppet for the real star spirit
 

CapitaineCrash

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On the flip side, I do wish they hadn’t made Bowser smaller and faster. I get that it makes him better competitively but he loses a lot of his intimidating presence in the process. I would have preferred they find some other way to buff him while keeping his general feel.
Personally I really like faster Bowser, I actually think that this is a better portrayal of his character than just "big slow monster" like he was portrayed in Melee and Brawl. I think this change not only help for balancing, but as a better representation of the character, because the "slower monster" was a bit more accurate to Mario 64, but already with Sunshine he was starting to be more of a cartoony vilain.
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Personally I really like faster Bowser, I actually think that this is a better portrayal of his character than just "big slow monster" like he was portrayed in Melee and Brawl. I think this change not only help for balancing, but as a better representation of the character, because the "slower monster" was a bit more accurate to Mario 64, but already with Sunshine he was starting to be more of a cartoony vilain.
My biggest issue is the size. He can still be on the more cartoony side but they made his model a lot smaller due to standing up straight now. He does still have the same hunched over posture in goofy games like Paper Mario so I’m not sure why they changed that.
 

fogbadge

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On the flip side, I do wish they hadn’t made Bowser smaller and faster. I get that it makes him better competitively but he loses a lot of his intimidating presence in the process. I would have preferred they find some other way to buff him while keeping his general feel.
sheesh, no one can make up there mind about what size bowser is
 

BuckleyTim

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Jun 11, 2019
Messages
106
Random thought: I think people underestimate Snake's chances of returning a bit. Yes he'd have to compete against Castlevania and maybe even Bomberman in a reboot scenario but... he's got those remasters and now a msg3 remake with Delta. Heck, he's even about to be unlockable in Fortnite in just a few days. It's clear that Konami still considers him relevant enough to do things with in the modern age (kinda like Silent Hill... the less said about that the better though). If anything, he's much more relevant than Castlevania nowadays despite it all, so it's weird that I see people being fairly confident that if it's one or the other, we'll get the latter. Like Smash definitely has a bias towards though classic NES reps, but if most of the third-parties can return I think Snake won't get lost in the mix licensing-wise.
 

Gengar84

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Messages
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sheesh, no one can make up there mind about what size bowser is
I was fine with his size in Melee and Brawl. He probably still should have been even bigger but it worked for gameplay balance. When they decided to make him stand straight in Smash 4, they shrunk his model to keep him at the same relative height hitbox wise. That makes him look a lot smaller and less menacing overall. King K. Rool has the same issue. His model is actually considerably smaller than Donkey Kong’s on account of being upright. I think it would be cool to find some kind of way to balance larger characters without shrinking their model and losing some of their appeal in the process. They could have still made Bowser goofy and cartoony without shrinking him. Just look at him in Paper Mario. He’s still hunched over in those games too.
 
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Louie G.

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Random thought: I think people underestimate Snake's chances of returning a bit. Yes he'd have to compete against Castlevania and maybe even Bomberman in a reboot scenario but... he's got those remasters and now a msg3 remake with Delta.
I think Snake's chances are returning are decent enough. Konami is clearly not the stingy company people thought they were and for whatever reason Sakurai simply decided not to bring Snake back in Smash 4. The thing is, I'm not sure yet whether or not "most" third parties will return. I'm trying to prepare myself for a scenario where we have to slash it down considerably and for now the lowest I've been able to go is about half of what we currently have. Although that comes with limiting most companies to a single character, and I tend to opt for Simon to return over Snake just on the basis of something fresh (he's only been in one game so far) and how freely Konami tosses around Castlevania. They held no punches bringing a slew of new content to Ultimate and Metal Gear mostly rehashed what was already present in Brawl.

They could simply both return, and I may currently be underestimating how many third party characters will be on the base roster. But for now I'm trying to brace myself for a conservative scenario and determine who might be the top priorities, cheapest gets and most cooperative parties. Simply put, if Snake got cut once he can get cut again. But I'm sure his performance on the ballot alongside Metal Gear's persistent popularity externally means neither Nintendo or Konami would be totally averse to bringing him back.

It just makes me wonder... why didn't he come back in Smash 4 in the first place? Was it just because of the internal politics surrounding Kojima? Has something changed inside Konami that made it easier to work with them this time? Or was he simply just not a priority, I don't know.
 
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D

Deleted member

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Nah man, I think you got it twisted. This guy is 16 from France, he may be using a translator. Or, a different idea of how the website works compared to whatever French forums he’s been to before.
I like English,but i don't use translater a lot,so this is why i make mistakes sometimes.
Thank you.
 
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FazDude

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Snake's exclusion being due to the Kojima-Konami debacle doesn't seem to entirely line up - Most of it started to happen in 2015, when Smash 4 had been out for a few months. Wouldn't be suprised if it had started to bubble during Sm4sh's development, but if that isn't the case, Snake being absent makes even less sense, since Phantom Pain had been announced at that point. Wouldn't Smash be a good means to promote it?
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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Snake was likely excluded first because Sakurai didn't want to have too many guests at one time and so the two new ones :4megaman: :4pacman: had priority for being new collaborations, and Sonic was priority between him and Snake for being Sonic and for the business relationship between Nintendo and Sega at the time.

As for why not DLC? Because Lucas was already a token Brawl returnee and required less negotiation for inclusion. Square-Enix was the only true new company involved with the DLC.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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The situation between Konami and Kojima was souring some time before the ugly public fallout in 2015 and it wouldn't surprise me if the former became a bit hesitant to highlight Snake in certain contexts because how things kept spiraling.

I mean it's worth noting in general that Konami didn't put out any titles on Wii U besides Virtual Console releases. I don't think that was due to any strife with Nintendo (they were semi-active on the 3DS), but more because things were so chaotic that the cost of even porting games on an increasingly struggling console wasn't considered worth it. Konami in general went through massive restructurings circa 2012-2017 with the full buy out of Hudson Soft, the continued struggles of HD game development in the 7th gen, and the battle with Kojima over Phantom Pain's budget. The shift towards focusing on the modest AA Japanese market occurred at the same time of Smash Ultimate's development and it's not a surprise that given that context they were much more comfortable working with Nintendo, possibly because they sensed the nature of the Switch (especially in Japan) lined up well with their own gaming strategy.

Something I just realized also is that if word did get to Sakurai and/or Nintendo about how things were going between Kojima & Konami circa 2013/2014, the decision may have been that including Snake would either be tricky negotiation wise or even get the Big N dragged into another company's internal dispute.
 
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DarthEnderX

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7,866
Maybe make them all playable individually like DarthEnderX DarthEnderX suggests but also the Trainer version? Somehow that screams 4 slots gone to please 2 people but maybe it's not like that ?
Those slots are being used up regardless. Whether PT is one transforming Fighter or 3 separate Fighters, he still uses up the dev resources of 3 full Fighters. And dev resources is the true limit on number of characters, not the number of boxes on the CSS.

I've pretty much always felt that Charizard should be able to stand on his own without being attached to Trainer, and was glad that's exactly what we got in 4.
Look, Pokemon Trainer's dope and all, but Smash 4 Charizard was easily one of the most fun characters in that game imo. I'm completely fine with solo Zard if it has to come down to it.
That's why I wish, at the very least, solo Charizard got to be an Echo for PT.
 
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Hadokeyblade

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I think Snake's chances are returning are decent enough. Konami is clearly not the stingy company people thought they were and for whatever reason Sakurai simply decided not to bring Snake back in Smash 4. The thing is, I'm not sure yet whether or not "most" third parties will return. I'm trying to prepare myself for a scenario where we have to slash it down considerably and for now the lowest I've been able to go is about half of what we currently have. Although that comes with limiting most companies to a single character, and I tend to opt for Simon to return over Snake just on the basis of something fresh (he's only been in one game so far) and how freely Konami tosses around Castlevania. They held no punches bringing a slew of new content to Ultimate and Metal Gear mostly rehashed what was already present in Brawl.

They could simply both return, and I may currently be underestimating how many third party characters will be on the base roster. But for now I'm trying to brace myself for a conservative scenario and determine who might be the top priorities, cheapest gets and most cooperative parties. Simply put, if Snake got cut once he can get cut again. But I'm sure his performance on the ballot alongside Metal Gear's persistent popularity externally means neither Nintendo or Konami would be totally averse to bringing him back.

It just makes me wonder... why didn't he come back in Smash 4 in the first place? Was it just because of the internal politics surrounding Kojima? Has something changed inside Konami that made it easier to work with them this time? Or was he simply just not a priority, I don't know.
I mean, i kinda figured it was just because Konami was a minefield of controveries every waking moment back then.
 

DarthEnderX

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I'm in a tiny minority here who loathe the Pokemon Trainer concept.
I'm with you. I dislike transformation characters on a fundamental level. I love that 4 got rid of them. And was annoyed when Ultimate brought one of them back(and then added a new one with Pyra/Mythra).

Why don’t we just move the transformation to a shield special or taunt? That seems like it would solve the issue for both parties.
The input is not my issue with transformation characters.

My problem with them is:
A. They use up 2-3 times the dev resources to make just one Fighter, that could have been used to add other unique Fighters instead.
B. They're unnecessarily complicated. It's one Fighter that's 2-3x more complicated to play than a normal Fighter.

Dude it's insane these people buy "riggs" that motion capture you and real time animate their avatar as they navigate an actual 3d game space. They also stream let's plays and it's HUGE community and these folks get paid it's their side job and for some truly dedicated it's a living
Most importantly, it lets unattractive people be streamers and still get support from shallow people. :p
 
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DarthEnderX

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On the subject of Pokémon Trainer, I still maintain the 3-Pokémon team should’ve been Totodile, Grovyle and Charizard.
Greninja, Incineroar, Meowscarada!

Team Dark Star(ter)!


Maybe that would make more sense as the team for Pokemon Rival.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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I'd be amused if there was a three Pokemon team that, while balanced gameplay wise, feels completely random in terms of type and even generation when it comes to who's there. Like Shuckle, Nickit , & Sudowoodo are just a trio for no real reason other than the trainer apparently liking them.
 

WeirdChillFever

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I'd be amused if there was a three Pokemon team that, while balanced gameplay wise, feels completely random in terms of type and even generation when it comes to who's there. Like Shuckle, Nickit , & Sudowoodo are just a trio for no real reason other than the trainer apparently liking them.
Bug Trainer Joey with a regional early-game bird, regional early-game rodent and regional early-game bug
 

Will

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They’re about to add Snake to Fortnite, I think getting permission to reuse his assets for the next game is pretty likely. :nifty:
 

CapitaineCrash

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Personally I think both Metal gear and Castlevania are pretty safe to come back. I think the biggest hurdle those franchises have actually isn't Konami, it's the lack of games and they're mostly existing only through re-releases, so in a scenario where there would be a lot of cuts I could maybe see those franchises being lower priority for lack of relevancy. But either way other Konami franchises aren't really getting more games than Metal gear or Castlevania so I don't see Snake being replaced by Bomberman or Simon getting replaced by Bill Rizer a really likely scenario.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I honestly think that Konami is open to certain projects with their more modest IP's if approached, provided the cost is kept low and the idea isn't terribly risky. They approved the Castlevania anime when pitched and Limited Run Games apparently pushed for doing a Rocket Knight collection which the company agreed to. Metal Gear and Silent Hill might be gradually developed given they're very high profile, and Bomberman because it's a modest release that can do decent numbers in Japan or the West but with the other (non Japan oriented) IP's, it may very well come down to what they're offered. It wouldn't surprise if Way Forward themselves suggested tackling Contra again after the success of the DS game and Konami figured anything would be an improvement afther 2019 release.

In that sense, I could see something similar with Smash; open to a lot of fighters, but it's on Nintendo and Sakurai to get the ball rolling as to who they want.
 

Louie G.

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I think outside of Square Enix and Disney, whether or not Nintendo is allowed to use characters anymore is a non-issue. If they got Snake this time, they’ll be able to get him again. Realistically the budget won’t be drastically different than base Ultimate and nothing negative has happened in respect to any existing relationships. It will boil down instead to the priorities of the roster, the space available, and whether or not they’d be more optimal to sell as DLC. The latter point is why SE is a notable variable, although it’s beneficial to everyone.

Snake is pretty obviously fair game to come back whenever they’d like, but if they decide they need to make room and save resources for new guest fighters, even some of the “easy” ones might not make it back. I suspect Konami will still be in the equation but that won’t automatically guarantee them all of their characters.
 
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Gorgonzales

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Yeah, this is what I meant. Ridley has a surprisingly good dash speed but his air speed and the extra startup / cooldown added to his specials can make him feel slow and heavy at times. It's not as if Ridley is bad in the air or anything, but I think more focus should be put on improving that since if there's anything Ridley should be, it's an absolute terror in the sky.

I'd honestly just be satisfied if they gave him an extra jump or two, three jumps does not cut it in my opinion and with how telegraphed both his recovery tools are he could use an additional mixup. Getting back to stage as Ridley of all characters shouldn't be too much of a struggle, but at least his aerial combo game is strong and a lot of fun.
I really hope they take another look at Ridley's design next game.

There's so much they got right about him like his cruel demeanor, his side special (yes!! he did the thing!! you nailed it!! good job!!), and his mannerisms in general. But then there's his size (he's ironically not big enough), his atrocious air game for a character known for his aerial prowess, and his really low weight, among other issues...

Why his his forward air like that. Out of ALL the options you had for a F-air, you picked the most unintuitive, awkward one? It should be a brutal claw slash, not a dinky, lightning-fast, restrained tail poke. It feels so weird, what were they thinking?

His throws also feel really uninspired. Compare his throws in the Project M mod where he does all sorts of things like lifting his opponent while slashing them with his tail before driving them into the ground, to Ultimate where they give him the most bland, vanilla throws out of any newcomer in that game. When Ridley gets his claws on you, it should HURT. And right now it really doesn't feel that way.

It feels like they were afraid to make him good. I've heard Ult Ridley described as a concession character that's only here out of obligation, and as much as it pains me to say it, I have to agree. He doesn't really feel like Ridley a lot of the time. The times when he does are great! But those moments are few and far in between.

Make him bigger, give him some armor to compensate for the increased hurtbox, give him better specials (other than side because that's good as is), change that atrocious forward air, make his throws more inspired, give him an air game, and I'll be like, YEAH! THAT'S RIDLEY IN SMASH!!
 

UserKev

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Uh, Ridley feels fine and rather true to the source material. I'll agree that Ridley DOSE need armor and maybe a more explosive forward Smash. Like, let him power a failed plasma ball release that falls in close range that gives greater reach. His tail stab should be reduced to a quicker tail slingshot spike for regular knock back.
 

Louie G.

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It feels like they were afraid to make him good. I've heard Ult Ridley described as a concession character that's only here out of obligation, and as much as it pains me to say it, I have to agree. He doesn't really feel like Ridley a lot of the time. The times when he does are great! But those moments are few and far in between.

Make him bigger, give him some armor to compensate for the increased hurtbox, give him better specials (other than side because that's good as is), change that atrocious forward air, make his throws more inspired, give him an air game, and I'll be like, YEAH! THAT'S RIDLEY IN SMASH!!
I'm glad we're on the same page as far as wanting Ridley to be improved on, but I don't agree with a lot of this. I don't need him overhauled, I just see the potential to improve on several already existing elements of his kit so he'll feel less awkward and be more of a force to be reckoned with.

I actually like his Fair just fine because a multi-hit stab move fits Ridley quite well, it's fun to carry opponents offstage with and a claw swipe is aping off several existing characters already. His throws could be better, but impaling you with his tail and scraping you across the ground is certainly Ridley. I would hesitate to call them bland, they feel deliberate in their cruelty but they could be pushed further. His specials are fine, I really like his unique fireballs and Down B is one of the most brutal and rewarding moves in the game.

And Ridley DOES have an air game - every aerial except dair is pretty useful. Nair and fair are really solid combo tools, bair is a reliable kill option. His offstage game is really solid, even if his best option is a poke tool. The issue is just that he can stand to fly faster, and that his recovery options are highly telegraphed with only one extra jump to accommodate. His offstage game is good, but he needs to be able to get BACK to the stage. And he needs to be able to chase you down more reliably, there should be nobody more threatening to be in the air with. The fundamentals are here but it can be stronger.

I don't like calling anyone a concession character - more often than not, this is a narrative spread by the people who were wrong about a character and want make excuses about how Sakurai was forced at gunpoint by fans to add them. If Sakurai didn't want to add Ridley, he didn't have to. But given that Ridley has appeared in every game in the series in some capacity or another (okay, not Smash 3DS), I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Sakurai might like him.

The attention to detail given to Ridley is not one that implies a rush job or lack of inspiration. Like you said, they were afraid to make him good, and this is a problem that persists across a majority of the heavyweights on the roster. A fighter who is difficult to KO, has strong combos, has strong kill options, can reliably recover... Ridley has all the tools necessary to be really damn annoying, so I suspect he's a victim of power creep. After DLC it's a lot easier to see how other characters are given unnecessary limitations, and I hope that instead of simply nerfing DLC characters into infinity (although we should do that, too) more work is done to bring existing characters up to speed and not being afraid to give them some of those more threatening tools.

TLDR, I love Ridley. I think he was handled quite well, I just need him to be sufficiently buffed. I don't agree with every moveset decision but I don't find his kit to be disorienting or unfitting, I just want to be able to recover without my options leaving me vulnerable for a hundred years. I'll take some armored attacks too though.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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While waiting for the Splatfest last weekend I made a fanmade theme, as a sequel to the Japan only Splatoon 2 McDonald's Splatfest.
The original one in Splatoon 2 was Fries vs McNuggets, so I added Big Macs. And yes, 80% of the reason I made this was because Big Man getting Big Macs was just too perfect.



The original one art is here.

File:S2 Splatfest Fries vs McNuggets.png
File:Pearl Fries Marina McNuggets.jpg

I also made alternate universe Halloween and Christmas Splatfests.


 

Arcanir

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I honestly never got the notion to remove Ridley's F-Air. It's not meant to be meaty as it's a combo extender, he's trying to keep the foe close-by so that he can extend their suffering his ability to keep attacking them, and it does fit the character since he predominantly uses his tail across all of his appearances. It's also unique to Ridley as no other character uses their tail like that whereas a claw swipe would, as said before, overlap with other characters like Charizard, Bowser, and Wolf.

I can understand maybe tweaking it, but removing it entirely I feel would actually do more to remove some of his identity. It's something unique to him that only he can do, he should keep that and just have it adjusted.
 
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fogbadge

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While waiting for the Splatfest last weekend I made a fanmade theme, as a sequel to the Japan only Splatoon 2 McDonald's Splatfest.
The original one in Splatoon 2 was Fries vs McNuggets, so I added Big Macs. And yes, 80% of the reason I made this was because Big Man getting Big Macs was just too perfect.



The original one art is here.

File:S2 Splatfest Fries vs McNuggets.png
File:Pearl Fries Marina McNuggets.jpg

I also made alternate universe Halloween and Christmas Splatfests.


anyone else getting hungry?
 

Sucumbio

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Uh, Ridley feels fine and rather true to the source material. I'll agree that Ridley DOSE need armor and maybe a more explosive forward Smash. Like, let him power a failed plasma ball release that falls in close range that gives greater reach. His tail stab should be reduced to a quicker tail slingshot spike for regular knock back.
Actually his fsmash is amazing and he has "armor" if you use time his b special right. He's actually really powerful and his air game while slow is deceptively punishing if you're hell bent on approaching, which if you're conditioning right with fireballs your opponent is. Then add his up smash, and his hitboxes are basically huge ass wheels of death lol nah he's great he def needs a boost in the air cause rn he feels like I'm flying a balloon lol.

Ooo Balloon Fight...
 

Mushroomguy12

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I'm fine with transformation characters as long as they're executed correctly. :ultpokemontrainer:/:ultpokemontrainerf: as well as :ultpyra:/:ultmythra: all are executed in a way that makes perfect canonical sense, and I like how Trainer allows for representation of human characters in Pokemon as well as representation for Squirtle and Ivysaur that they didn't have in Smash 4. Having all three stages of the starters in particular is great compared to the more recent solo starter newcomers which seem to exclusively focus on final stage evolutions.
 
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Louie G.

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On that topic though, something I've thought about... what exactly happened to all those vocal Ridley haters / detractors? It's one thing to not think he's practical, it was another thing entirely when you had several loud voices proclaiming Ridley's character would be ruined by shrinking him down.

And then Ridley was revealed, he's been in the game for over five years, and everyone just kinda stopped? Is Ridley just that good in Smash that he changed everyone's minds? Certain popular characters make it into the game and their detractors still make it known that they aren't a fan of it - Banjo comes to mind. But anyone who was hating on Ridley kinda just stopped altogether, or maybe didn't continue speculating into Ultimate at all. I do remember Shokio, who was infamously THE "too bigot", being upset when he was revealed and saying he looked bad, but in retrospect he was easily one of the least controversial additions. That was an isolated incident unless I'm forgetting some legendary meltdowns that went on in other forums.

Needless to say, I'm very happy that Ridley is so universally accepted now and I hope he'll be here to stay. It's just crazy to think that this was the single most controversial character for so many years, and then he got added and everyone just waved their white flag and moved on lmao.
 
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