Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Yeah, I did notice that Sakurai seemed to have a particular affinity for Pythra from some of his videos. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with letting him make a few personal picks since he’s the one making the game but I get why some don’t care for that.

I suppose so. It’s just unfortunate that I find his personal picks rubbish

If that’s the case (which seems very plausible), I wonder if that’s a bad sign for Officer Howard and their Legion. I really enjoyed Astral Chain and I think Howard would be a really fun character in Smash but could potentially be too complex mechanic wise. My favorite character from that game is Jenna Anderson and I feel like her only chance is if they really want an Astral Chain character and for some reason they can’t make Howard work or want to give us two characters. Unfortunately, I think she’s even more of a long shot than Nia so I’ll take Officer Howard if Sakurai can make them work.

I imagine it’ll depend on the technology of the next system but as things stand now things don’t look good

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I would have loved the Diddy & Dixie tag team to actually happen back then, but now I just want solo Diddy and solo Dixie. They both have more than enough stuff to stand on their own.
I see the Dixie/Kiddy idea get tossed around sometimes, but eh... I like Kiddy and all but he'd kinda just get in the way. Solo Dixie would be more fun imo. Plus Kiddy is just not a big part of Dixie's character. She was paired with him only once.

Not many other potential transformation characters come to my mind, though.
I think Crono could be cool? You swap party member with your down B, each one follows you around and changes your special moves in a different way (referencing dual techs), but they can get KO'd.
Love CT and all but Crono by himself would be a bit bland. I think it might be too complicated though.

 

[Gengar84]

I would have loved the Diddy & Dixie tag team to actually happen back then, but now I just want solo Diddy and solo Dixie. They both have more than enough stuff to stand on their own.
I see the Dixie/Kiddy idea get tossed around sometimes, but eh... I like Kiddy and all but he'd kinda just get in the way. Solo Dixie would be more fun imo. Plus Kiddy is just not a big part of Dixie's character. She was paired with him only once.

Not many other potential transformation characters come to my mind, though.
I think Crono could be cool? You swap party member with your down B, each one follows you around and changes your special moves in a different way (referencing dual techs), but they can get KO'd.
Love CT and all but Crono by himself would be a bit bland. I think it might be too complicated though.

My most wanted moveset for Dixie would be to incorporate different animal buddies to ride for her specials as well as her signature hair twirl and gliding for her other attacks. I would have ideally wanted a Diddy/Dixie pair but it’s a bit late for that now. Kiddy does have a more contrasting playstyle to Dixie so I think they probably work better as a pair mechanically. You’re right that Kiddy was only in one game and was never particularly popular so it probably isn’t the best approach. I do think it could still be a lot of fun and I’d love to see the actual mechanics of the DKC games represented somehow in Smash.

I agree about Crono too. Chrono Trigger is one of my favorite games ever but I was never too big on silent avatar protagonists. He is also very visually similar to Hero. You could definitely make a really cool moveset around his dual techs with other party members. I think the simplest way to go about it is to just make different specials summon a different partner for a quick attack and then disappear.

My most wanted Chrono character is solo Magus though. Mostly out of personal bias because he’s one of my favorite characters in gaming but partially because I feel he legit represents the series as a whole at least as well as Crono. Magus was at least initially planned to be a major part of all three Chrono games and ended up in only two. Chrono Cross replaced his planned role with Guile who was originally intended to be the same character. I’d love a character that incorporates elements of both characters with each as an alt to represent the series as a whole. Magus also has a very unique look and to my knowledge was the first major antagonist in gaming that could be recruited as a party member. I could be very wrong on that one since I have limited knowledge but no others come to mind.

 

[Staarih]

I know some people here are opposed to the idea of more transform characters, but for those that are open to more, are there any specific duos you’d like to see?

A Pokémon from Gen 9 is very much up in the air, and even then anything related to the DLC will likely be ignored, but I think Ogerpon would lend itself well to a mask-switching transformation character. I reckon it's one of the more memorable Pokémon from the DLC (Terapagos really gave us nothing lol), although its design is kinda weird. But anyway, just a thought.

 

[Gengar84]

A Pokémon from Gen 9 is very much up in the air, and even then anything related to the DLC will likely be ignored, but I think Ogerpon would lend itself well to a mask-switching transformation character. I reckon it's one of the more memorable Pokémon from the DLC (Terapagos really gave us nothing lol), although its design is kinda weird. But anyway, just a thought.

I actually really like Ogrepon’s design, particularly its default grass mask. A mask switching moveset could be a lot of fun too. Another idea in a similar vein is Deoxys. Being able to switch between its different forms could be a ton of fun. The general moveset in each form would be largely the same but the stats would be wildly different. I’d basically see it as very similar to Shulk’s Monado arts but with a model swap for Deoxys’s different forms

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I feel Deoxys should just switch between forms for certain actions rather than have each form be playable on their own.

Like Shielding goes into Defense forme, dashing goes into Speed forme, Smash Attacks use Attack forme, etc.
With specials also using the formes for the move used.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Man I remember when Deoxsys was a popular request.

Would have loved it if it actually happened.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Why would you want a character to be a boss instead of playable?

I want the role that's best suited to the character. Whether it be a mobile, playable Fighter, a huge Boss with screen filling attacks, or brief cameos as Assist Trophies.

Would making Rathalos into a Fighter be an upgrade for it? Sure. Is that the best way to represent it as a character? Hell no.

Ridley was perfectly suited to being a Boss. Turning him into a Fighter warped him into something he wasn't meant to be.

It seems like an objective downgrade to me.

It would be now that he's already a Fighter, yes. Which is why I'm not suggesting he go back to being a Boss. That would violate the sanctity of 'Everyone is Here'.

But he still shouldn't have been made a Fighter in the first place.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Man I remember when Deoxsys was a popular request.

Would have loved it if it actually happened.

I remember when Blaziken was a popular pick back in the Brawl days.

Before people started complaining about Starters.
Before people started pushing a Grass Starter quota. Which started ironically enough with Sceptile, which some try to claim was always as popular as Blaziken (and yet wasn't even a thing in speculation until happened...)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

But he still shouldn't have been made a Fighter in the first place

I have lost an EiH brother today.

 

[Gengar84]

I think bosses and enemies make for really interesting characters so I’m glad we have Ridley even if it isn’t entirely accurate. Without bosses or Pokémon, Smash would largely just be humanoid frames and main protagonists. Playable monsters like Ridley both give us something unique mechanically and let us create fun heroes vs villains match ups.

As far as Pokémon goes, while Meowscarada is my favorite Grass type starter in a long time and the only starter line out of the three in S/V that I actually like, there are several other Pokemon I’d like to see first, even just limited to Switch era reps. Meowscarada would give us three Dark type starters in a row and the second Dark type bipedal cat starter in a row. I’d prefer a bit more variety in the Pokémon rep. Meowscarada is cool and heavily promoted so there’s a good chance that’s who they’ll go with but that’s just my two cents.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Guys, Bowser should have never been playable.

He just feels wrong and should only ever have been a boss.

Giga Bowser should just be the normal true Bowser.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I have lost an EiH brother today.

If he hadn't been promoted to a Fighter, we'd still have EiH. EiH only applies to previous Fighters.

I think bosses and enemies make for really interesting characters so I’m glad we have Ridley even if it isn’t entirely accurate. Without bosses or Pokémon, Smash would largely just be humanoid frames and main protagonists.

Tons of games have enemies that make perfect sense as Fighters. Pretty much every villain in Smash other than Ridley and Piranha Plant fits as a Fighter.

And some characters actually make sense as both. Ganondorf is a perfect Fighter. Ganon is a perfect Boss. Sephiroth is a perfect Fighter. Safer Sephiroth would be a perfect Boss.

 

[Gengar84]

Tons of games have enemies that make perfect sense as Fighters. Pretty much every villain in Smash other than Ridley and Piranha Plant fits as a Fighter.

And some characters actually make sense as both. Ganondorf is a perfect Fighter. Ganon is a perfect Boss. Sephiroth is a perfect Fighter. Safer Sephiroth would be a perfect Boss.

While Ganondorf and Sephiroth are my two favorite Smash characters, both are humanoid characters and neither gives us as much visual diversity compared to a monster like Ridley. There’s just something cool about being able to play as very different looking creatures that you could never do in most fighting games.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ridley is fine as a fighter.
Just make him a bit bigger.

Big monster.

 

[Gengar84]

Ridley is fine as a fighter.
Just make him a bit bigger.

Big monster.

I think Smash could benefit from making their big characters even bigger. Sure, increasing their size alone would make them worse competitively due to their larger hitboxes but there has to be another way to balance them to make up for that shortcoming. I’d love being able to play as a huge character in Smash. They don’t necessarily have to be Sentinel sized from Marvel vs Capcom but something in between would be really cool.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel Deoxys should just switch between forms for certain actions rather than have each form be playable on their own.

Like Shielding goes into Defense forme, dashing goes into Speed forme, Smash Attacks use Attack forme, etc.
With specials also using the formes for the move used.

Considering this is how it fights in canon this would make a lot of sense.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think bosses and enemies make for really interesting characters so I’m glad we have Ridley even if it isn’t entirely accurate. Without bosses or Pokémon, Smash would largely just be humanoid frames and main protagonists. Playable monsters like Ridley both give us something unique mechanically and let us create fun heroes vs villains match ups.

As far as Pokémon goes, while Meowscarada is my favorite Grass type starter in a long time and the only starter line out of the three in S/V that I actually like, there are several other Pokemon I’d like to see first, even just limited to Switch era reps. Meowscarada would give us three Dark type starters in a row and the second Dark type bipedal cat starter in a row. I’d prefer a bit more variety in the Pokémon rep. Meowscarada is cool and heavily promoted so there’s a good chance that’s who they’ll go with but that’s just my two cents.

Sakurai went for Incineroar to represent SM even though Decidueye was the most promoted Alolan starter.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I don't know about you guys, but when I manage to get a stock in 5 seconds via Skewer - down smash - up aerial, Ridley makes a ton of sense as a fighter to me

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Sakurai went for Incineroar to represent SM even though Decidueye was the most promoted Alolan starter.

No, it really wasn't.
And the decision between them was before either were being promoted. So even if Incineroar technically got more promotion, that was not a factor whatsoever.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

And some characters actually make sense as both. Ganondorf is a perfect Fighter. Ganon is a perfect Boss. Sephiroth is a perfect Fighter. Safer Sephiroth would be a perfect Boss.

So only humanoids can be playable? Ngl, that would be really lame.

Playing as monsters/creatures-like character would be lot more interesting and unique take to the roster

 

[Louie G.]

Sakurai went for Incineroar to represent SM even though Decidueye was the most promoted Alolan starter.

And in retrospect I'm glad he did. We got stuck in a bit of a rut of cool, stoic and mysterious Pokemon with Lucario and Greninja, which can even be extended to Mewtwo if you'd like. Decidueye would have been yet another, but Incineroar brings with him a personality all his own. I feel like people don't champion this enough, and he brings so much to both the Pokemon lineup and the roster as a whole.

If we had to get anything from the grass starter line, I honestly would have welcomed them to add Rowlet lol. At the very least that would be something really different, but I'm very happy with what we got. Would have been happy with Mimikyu or Golisopod also, though. Or straight up Nihilego + Lusamine if they wanted to be really quirky.

 

[Kirbeh]

While we're on the subject of monsters/creatures or just more unorthodox picks in general I would like to mention Final Fantasy summons.

People understandably always talk Black Mage, Terra, another 7 rep, etc. but I'd honestly really like to see to Shiva and Ifrit as fighters.

Summons in general are a major reoccurring part of the series and those two are among the most prominent/iconic.

And before it gets brought up, no I don't care that Midgar has summons on it. Characters can be used in multiple roles.

 

[Garteam]

If we're pitching transforming fighters...

I'm biased, but this is a tough one to beat, IMO.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So only humanoids can be playable?

Humanoid's got nothing to do with it. Amaterasu and the SV-001 Metal Slug would both be great Fighters. So would Firebrand, and he has the same body type as Ridley.

A Boss is just what fit Ridley best.

 

[Kirbeh]

If we're pitching transforming fighters...

I'm biased, but this is a tough one to beat, IMO.

I'd like for both to make it in but I'd prefer it if they're separate fighters to be honest. Rather than forcing them together, I think we just need a proper tag mode to have proper team ups.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

And in retrospect I'm glad he did. We got stuck in a bit of a rut of cool, stoic and mysterious Pokemon with Lucario and Greninja, which can even be extended to Mewtwo if you'd like. Decidueye would have been yet another, but Incineroar brings with him a personality all his own. I feel like people don't champion this enough, and he brings so much to both the Pokemon lineup and the roster as a whole.

This reminds me of one the arguments people deadass said about Incineroar being "not expressive enough".

Think it might have even been the one you're quoting too, I don't recall. I do remember the irony in it being mentioned within the Lycanroc thread.

 

[FazDude]

Between Mewtwo, Lucario, and Greninja, Incineroar stands out a lot and might be one of my favorite newcomers from Ult's base game.

 

[Noipoi]

Sakurai went for Incineroar to represent SM even though Decidueye was the most promoted Alolan starter.

Correction, Rowlet was by far the most promoted Alola starter. When it comes to final forms Decidueye and Incineroar always seemed to be fighting for the spotlight, with the tiger outright winning in several cases.

But considering one got into Pokken and the other into Smash, I guess it’s all even now.

Poor Primarina…

 

[Louie G.]

I think the only other transforming fighter I'd really like to see are the aforementioned Splatoon idol teams. Squid Sisters or Off the Hook probably, although I'd like to see anyone from Deep Cut playable the most. But I believe if they went for one of these guys, they could lean harder into an assist-focused mechanic a la the Angry Beavers in NASB. It fits the emphasis on teamwork in the Splatoon series as well as the synergy that these characters have with one another, kind of a comfortable middle point between the Ice Climbers and Pyra / Mythra. And this is how I assume Diddy and Dixie may have played out too.

Otherwise, it's not that I don't like transformation characters but rather I don't think we need that many more of them. I don't wanna be much of a character = function guy here, but I do believe if something like this is done once it probably serves the idea best to let it remain that way so it remains a special gimmick. The aforementioned concept I mapped out is distinct in its own way, but if we're doing another character that's just Zelda / Sheik or Pyra / Mythra over again then I'd rather not do it.

Between Mewtwo, Lucario, and Greninja, Incineroar stands out a lot and might be one of my favorite newcomers from Ult's base game.

He's probably climbed up to my favorite Pokemon in the game, although it reminds me that I wish Mewtwo was flashier too. I think his age is showing a bit, would love to see him treated more akin to someone like Sephiroth because as-is he doesn't quite feel like the intensely powerful legendary force he's supposed to be. In general I think Smash has played it a little safe with some of its god-level boss threats up til Sephiroth and I want to see that philosophy extended toward the others now that we're here. Ganondorf and Mewtwo could particularly use that boost, maybe Palutena too.

 

[Mamboo07]

Playing as monsters/creatures-like character would be lot more interesting and unique take to the roster

Agreed

 

[Noipoi]

As a day 1 Incineroar fan, it still isn’t the most beloved Pokemon of course, but the last few years have been very vindicating.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Correction, Rowlet was by far the most promoted Alola starter. When it comes to final forms Decidueye and Incineroar always seemed to be fighting for the spotlight, with the tiger outright winning in several cases.

But considering one got into Pokken and the other into Smash, I guess it’s all even now.

Poor Primarina…

One got a movie role and bigger anime role, the other got a Hisuian form and Unite (though the latter could change at any given moment).

It really is neck and neck isn't it.
Though one is a terror in competitive play and the other doesn't see much use in either form.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

My favorite Pokémon are Incineroar and Jigglypuff lol. They both add so much.
Greninja is also cool enough, he has these badass vibes but then you hear his voice.

I don't like to play as Lucario and Mewtwo all that much to be honest

 

[Noipoi]

My favorite Pokémon are Incineroar and Jigglypuff lol. They both add so much.
Greninja is also cool enough, he has these badass vibes but then you hear his voice.

I don't like to play as Lucario and Mewtwo all that much to be honest

Eh, I kinda like Greninja’s voice. He sounds like Stitch

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Eh, I kinda like Greninja’s voice. He sounds like Stitch

Petition to have Greninja say the thing.

 

[fogbadge]

If you ask me by picking incineroar sakurai went with both the worst possible gen 7 Pokemon and the lamest possible wrestler

we could have had the rhythm paradise one

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If you ask me by picking incineroar sakurai went with both the worst possible gen 7 Pokemon and the lamest possible wrestler

we could have had the rhythm paradise one

Is that what you think?

Don't know how to break it to ya, but....

Spoiler

 

[Louie G.]

we could have had the rhythm paradise one

As a massive Rhythm Heaven fan, I love Incineroar and quite frankly never was that into the idea of adding Wrestler. I'd be cool with him as a second character, but Rhythm Heaven's initial representation should come with someone more focused on the music aspect. Never really thought a fighter based on a traditional archetype like Karate Joe or Wrestler would be a good depiction of what the series is about.

I mean, I'd still gladly accept it, but I'd have some qualms about it not being Chorus Kids, Barista or Yuka / Tap Girl first.

Alternatively though, we could have gotten someone from Pro Wrestling too. I'd love to see how Smash revitalizes a character like Star Man or the Amazon. But all of this is null and void anyway, because a Pokemon was gonna be added no matter what and Sakurai just opted for the grappler. It's not like he was deciding between all the possible wrestling characters, he was deciding between the Gen 7 Pokemon.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

As a massive Rhythm Heaven fan, I love Incineroar and quite frankly never was that into the idea of adding Wrestler. I'd be cool with him as a second character, but Rhythm Heaven's initial representation should come with someone more focused on the music aspect. Never really thought a fighter based on a traditional archetype like Karate Joe or Wrestler would be a good depiction of what the series is about.

I mean, I'd still gladly accept it, but I'd have some qualms about it not being Chorus Kids, Barista or Yuka / Tap Girl first.

As someone who wanted Wrestler (& Reporter) in Smash For, I feel I went about it the wrong way with having a fighter that focused on the wrestling aspect (where Incineroar was the better fit).

Rather, whichever fighter for Rhythm Heaven gets in should be focused on having....well, rhythm in their attacks. I disagree on the notion of "music based" as even traditional theming works on a rhythmic level if you adapt their games from the series.

So yeah, Karate Joe is a martial artist. But he wouldn't be anything like Ryu, Ken, Kazuya, etc. His moves would be based on rhythm and reacting to said rhythm accordingly just like his appearances.

Same with The Wandering Samurai. Yeah, he uses a sword, but his fighting style isn't about said sword, rather timing and rhythm. The sword is only the conduit to react.

Chorus Kids are "music" based, but that isn't the focus. The focus is on reaction, rhythm, and timing, setting up for moves with two of the three and using the third Kid to perform the final maneuver based on how well you timed it.

Reporter & Wrestler (different from my original idea) would have the Reporter take center stage and set up for the Wrestler to appear for attacks like if he were a Stand, the Wrestler playing off the Reporter like in the home game, which was something I shamelessly didn't even consider a decade ago.


That's kind of what I see as someone who only admittedly played Fever. But that's just me.