Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

By celebrating the new year, you also celebrate the days, the weeks and months that come with said new year.

Almost like how when you celebrate gaming, you also celebrate the series, the companies and genres that come with gaming.

 

[Zerp]

Does everyone here believe the chance of an Ultimate Deluxe edition to be 0%?

I think a port is more likely than most people think, I'd give it like.... 35%-ish for the next console game. And a normal sequel (with some cuts, some new additions, you know, like every game before Ult) would be like... 60%-ish imo. And a reboot is like, not on my radar at all personally despite it being such a popular thing to speculate on. I think Nintendo would assume it'd devour sales if they just nuke the roster. And personally I agree with said hypothetical assumption lol.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Because not only is the year the biggest quantity measurement of time the 3 you listed, it encompasses all of it as well. By celebrating the new year, you also celebrate the days, the weeks and months that come with said new year. Something Smash can never realistically do because it can't never truly encompass all of gaming. I think you need a better analogy because this isn't working.

Like i said before, there is nothing being misrepresented here. It's not feasible for Smash to celebrate gaming as whole. That is unfortunate truth.

The point is you're setting the bar unreasonably high.

"Celebration of gaming" does not promise celebrating literally every aspect of gaming ever. That would obviously be rediculous. It just means...celebrating gaming in general. I don't know if you're a first party purist of what but you have to be being deliberately obtuse to misinterpret it that badly.

But then again this is Smash speculation, so what else is new?

 

[Sucumbio]

Can someone find where Sakurai ever said "Smash is a celebration of gaming?" I've yet to find it. The closest is a translator from Source Gaming interpreting Sakurai's overall message to mean that. It's actually kind of surprising that such a leap was made given the actual words of the interview.

In fact most of the original idea of smash being a celebration came when he supposedly said non video game characters were not coming to Smash, so... That doesn't immediately mean Smash is a celebration of gaming. But that makes sense if you're to assume Smash IS a celebration. And since non video games are out, that means only video games are in, and so it can only be celebrating video games.

But again all this is seems to be a public response to a foundational statement by the creator. We've projected our own view onto his words. Also there is no smash content that isn't available somewhere on a Nintendo system.

 

[FazDude]

Can someone find where Sakurai ever said "Smash is a celebration of gaming?" I've yet to find it. The closest is a translator from Source Gaming interpreting Sakurai's overall message to mean that. It's actually kind of surprising that such a leap was made given the actual words of the interview.

In fact most of the original idea of smash being a celebration came when he supposedly said non video game characters were not coming to Smash, so... That doesn't immediately mean Smash is a celebration of gaming. But that makes sense if you're to assume Smash IS a celebration. And since non video games are out, that means only video games are in, and so it can only be celebrating video games.

But again all this is seems to be a public response to a foundational statement by the creator. We've projected our own view onto his words. Also there is no smash content that isn't available somewhere on a Nintendo system.

It was mentioned In Byleth's presentation.

 

[Sucumbio]

It was mentioned In Byleth's presentation.

thank you so as he says he's not sure Smash Ultimate (specifically) is "just a fighting game" but "has become some sort of Celebration of gaming."

so no smash never intended to be that. We made it that. And so we hold the cards in terms of how well that moniker bears out as the series continues. Not Nintendo.

 

[CannonStreak]

You know, I do not think many people who want a reboot for Smash see the full picture as to why that may not be a good idea. I mean, what they see that leads to them wanting a reboot is only at the surface level, if you know what I mean. Plus, if Smash is a celebration of gaming, it would be a bad idea to do something like a reboot with the possibility of nuking the roster and removing many characters, which would lead to less of a celebration of gaming and do more harm than good. I don't think Smash needs a reboot, and as a celebration of gaming as it is called, I don't think it will ever necessarily need one.

 

[dream1ng]

Who said anything about "proof" in the first place?

Because an argument doesn't gain credibility without some degree of evidence. But if you have none, fair enough, we can dismiss your point then.

Yet, you still called Ryo "niche" just like you said about Keen, so why does that comparison fall apart all of a sudden?

For the same reason that someone who is 6'1" is tall and someone who is 7'1" is tall. Because qualities scale.

They're..."not as big as Shin Megami Tensei or SoulCalibur, but they're still pretty big"? Then there was no point in even saying this.

Though, DOOM is a big series just like them but we're talking about a big fighting game series and a big RPG series here, both genres which have playable characters already in Smash here.

Mate if you think I actually believe Shin Megami Tensei is bigger than Assassin's Creed you might be sarcasm blind.

The point was that we have a whole bunch of series bigger than those two in a non-playable capacity.

You're just now figuring out that they're guesses?

I do appreciate how you're basically dismantling your own argument at this point by admitting the baselessness of all your points.

Because you wouldn't know the reason, which is what I just said. It's right there in the quote. It would just be another guess like the one you're also making.

But you're the one who's making an assertion, my point is that we don't have proof of what you're claiming, which you've now concurred with, and that there is evidence, in fact, to the contrary, which you've handwaived away on something you've now admitted is a guess.

So thank you for negating your own argument.

Tekken only having a Mii costume and not a playable character was because they had an actual reason for that; they couldn't get Heihachi's moveset to work so they decided to move on to Kazuya for the next game. So we knew the reason for that from the start. There were no guesses there.

That's not the point though, is it. Your argument was that the fans wouldn't stand for a big series not being playable. Clearly they did.

But let's not forget that Namco still did have their mascot Pac-Man in the roster, so they were still good.

So, by this logic, they'd be good with SoulCalibur just being a costume then.

Yes, Tales got a costume twice but we're not talking about Tales. Obviously, Tales is not Tekken (which did get upgraded to playable representation) or Soul Calibur (which doesn't have anything at all ) and that's my point.

"This example disproves your argument"
"But we're not talking about that example"

The point is it disproves your argument. If there are examples that completely unhinge your stance, and you deal with them by not acknowledging them, or brushing it away as "well maybe it's an exception", it obviously means your rhetoric is faulty.

Btw, that wasn't your point. Your point was that major series wouldn't get in as non-playable, and SoulCalibur was one example, SMT another, despite a bigger series from the same company as the former and the same genre as the latter having gotten in as non-playable.

Each series is treated differently. Perhaps Namco doesn't view Tales in the same way they view Tekken or Soul Calibur or Pac-Man.

So, if Tales, and every other bigger series I mentioned is an exception, how many exceptions do there have to be before your theory starts to look pretty full of holes? Because if the barometer is series bigger than SMT/SC, there are a lot of exceptions.

I mean, in the case of Pac-Man, of course he was going to be playable. You think people would have been happy if he wasn't? Be honest.

People as a whole aren't happy characters don't make it unless the character is highly unpopular like Jonesy. People generally want all the characters they can get. It's a question of whether people would've been fine if he wasn't on the roster.

And honestly, had we got a different popular Namco character in 4, I think people would've been fine that Pac-Man wasn't playable. People forget that before he got in, Pac-Man was divisive, based on potential. He wasn't among the top requested characters, especially before learning Namco was the dev, nor was he the foregone conclusion from them, even though he was the most suspected outcome. Lloyd was also on wishlists/predictions going back to Brawl. But I think had we not got Pac-Man, he would've become one of the most popular and expected characters for Ultimate. And that's when people really start investing in outcomes in bigger numbers. Though the feasibility division would've become more pronounced too.

However, and this is important - just because most fans might be upset over, like, Sonic not getting in as playable doesn't mean that generalizes to most fans getting upset at any big franchise not getting in as playable - which was a false equivalency implicit in your post.

I mean you just said each series is treated differently. Now you're using Pac-Man as an example for a hypothetical response to a different series.

If the case of Tekken, it shows that they always intended to give it a playable representation and they finally did.

No, Tekken was considered during 4 and opted against. That's not later following up on the intention, that's having considered it earlier and thought otherwise at that point. Sakurai said there were no other strong Namco candidates for a fighter back during 4. The intention, at that point, wasn't there.

During Brawl, Pac-Man was considered, and likewise opted against. That's not having always intended to include Pac-Man. In fact it's the opposite.

In the case of Tales, it may be one of Namco's biggest series, yet it's got the Mii costume treatment twice, though there's no doubt Lloyd could work as a playable character. But he's not.

And people have rolled with it. Which disproves your argument. At least what it was a post before, before the goalposts started moving.

So maybe for Soul Calibur, they view it in a different way too. It's got nothing in Smash yet and maybe that's because of how Namco WANTS it to be in Smash.

Similarly, Atlus may view SMT the same way. After all, that's where Persona came from. That's where their mascot Jack Frost came from. So maybe they feel that this special series of theirs should have more than just spirits, trophies, music, or Mii costumes.

Other companies like Koei Tecmo and Arc System Works might feel the same way.

Or maybe Sakurai really just ****ing hates all these series and/or companies. We can play the maybe game all day long. It doesn't lend any of these points credence if there's nothing to back it up except the absence of content.

You're pushing this one narrative of them not wanting it when there's absolutely no evidence of that at all. It makes it baseless, which makes it not worth defending as anything more than one of many possibilities. But given there is conflicting evidence for the suggestion of opting out, it makes the validity of your proposition all the more remote.

I understand your argument. I think it's flawed, but I understand it. Do you understand mine?

Also, fans don't always accept characters not being playable in Smash. Many fans were letdown when they see their favorite characters as part of spirit events. Travis fans were letdown when they saw him as a Mii costume. Heck, many people (including myself) were letdown when we read that Little Mac was an AT in Brawl before he was officially revealed. Depending on the series, if fans felt that a character could have been playable and just didn't without a reason, then yes, there would be a lot of disappointment.

There's a lot of backpedaling and ignoring here, ngl. Now the argument is "some fans were let down" rather than, and I quote, "there's no way ANYBODY would be happy with those series being represented by just spirits, trophies, or Mii costumes". There's no acknowledging the big series I listed that fans seem ok by their non-playable representation, which were clearly bigger than SMT and SoulCalibur, which I guess you... forgot about before?

No, now it's just "fans don't always accept characters not being playable in Smash". Now it's "many fans were let down". That wasn't what was in contention. I don't deny there's disappointment and antipathy at points. I was disappointed by some deconfirmations, I'm sure everyone was at some point. But that's not what you were originally saying, so let's not go shifting the goalposts.

Btw, almost all fans do eventually accept characters not being playable in Smash, because they have to. Because they can't do anything to change it for that game. In fact, it's some of the biggest series that fans were quickest to accept weren't playable. Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, Fallout, even Doom, people kinda just rolled with. Actually getting those series was the bigger surprise. Resident Evil came with disappointment, but didn't cause that much bemoaning. Some people were pretty convinced Monster Hunter would be playable, but even that deconfirmation didn't cause some shockwave of negativity. And I think people were mostly just surprised Dante actually did show up at that point of his costume reveal.

Everyone has their picks, but overall those hardest to accept seem the highly popular ones that become expected (in part due to echo chambers, but that's another discussion), not necessarily the biggest ones. Sometimes they go hand in hand, but often it's the opposite. Look at Geno and Isaac. A lot of the popular third-parties eschew this by being desired and entertained but not feeling assured of - like Doom Slayer was by the time he was costume'd.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It was mentioned In Byleth's presentation.

It’s pretty obvious that “celebration of gaming” is used descriptively rather than prescriptively.

Anyways one thing that people have to remember is that, barring a Deluxe edition, Smash Ultimate is going to be the only time we are getting as many third-party newcomers as we did now. This is due to special circumstances since, again barring a port, a large portion of the DLC characters for the next game will be cut veterans, limiting the amount of newcomer characters as DLC. And DLC is where third-party newcomers are more common.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Almost like how when you celebrate gaming, you also celebrate the series, the companies and genres that come with gaming.

That would obviously be rediculous. It just means...celebrating gaming in general.

Gaming in general to you guys is just 90% Nintendo and not much else? Just mostly Platformers and JRPGs?

Don't get me wrong it's nice list but saying that is "gaming in general" is kinda stretching it.

 

[Opossum]

Gaming in general to you guys is just 90% Nintendo and not much else? Just mostly Platformers and JRPGs?

Don't get me wrong it's nice list but saying that is "gaming in general" is kinda stretching it.

I truly don't get how you're missing the point still.

Celebration of Gaming ≠ COMPLETE Celebration of Gaming

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Almost every genre has some kind of rep in smash, (that being either playable//mii/assist trophy). The only one missing that i can think of is Adventure games like Ace Attorney.
I think thats about as close as a celebration of gaming we can get. lol

 

[Sucumbio]

This is due to special circumstances since, again barring a port, a large portion of the DLC characters for the next game will be cut veterans, limiting the amount of newcomer characters as DLC.

This doesn't make sense to me. Not only would they not be successful convincing fans to pay extra for vets but 3rd party newcomers are more like to be paid content. And also a port or Deluxe is not the only option that would keep vets from coming back. The new game could easily bring back all the vets and make the DLC be for new characters.

And no, characters debuting in Ultimate are not vets.

 

[Schnee117]

This doesn't make sense to me. Not only would they not be successful convincing fans to pay extra for vets but 3rd party newcomers are more like to be paid content. And also a port or Deluxe is not the only option that would keep vets from coming back. The new game could easily bring back all the vets and make the DLC be for new characters.

And no, characters debuting in Ultimate are not vets.

I mean, they got people to pay for Mewtwo (post bonus period), Roy and Lucas in Smash 4.
If characters get cut there's an opportunity for them to be paid DLC like every other fighting game sequel. There's just no guarantee that veteran DLC would be more of a priority than new characters, that's something that depends on how the next game turns out and the direction they opt for.

 

[Noipoi]

It'll never be a true celebration of gaming until we have Gex

 

[Opossum]

Almost every genre has some kind of rep in smash, (that being either playable//mii/assist trophy). The only one missing that i can think of is Adventure games like Ace Attorney.
I think thats about as close as a celebration of gaming we can get. lol

While adventure games are a big example, there are still a few others that don't have fighters, costumes, or assists. Roguelikes are one such example, unless I'm blanking on something.

 

[Ivander]

While adventure games are a big example, there are still a few others that don't have fighters, costumes, or assists. Roguelikes are one such example, unless I'm blanking on something.

I mean, Richter and Alucard were in Dead Cells. Crossovers aside, doesn't Minecraft have Roguelike elements?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It'll never be a true celebration of gaming until we have Gex

Real talk, what would your reaction be if Gex was a newcomer for the next title?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I mean, Richter and Alucard were in Dead Cells. Crossovers aside, doesn't Minecraft have Roguelike elements?

Isnt Minecraft dungeons a roguelike? Idk i didnt play that.

Real talk, what would your reaction be if Gex was a newcomer for the next title?

"Oh my god a Mario Tennis rep!"

 

[Noipoi]

Real talk, what would your reaction be if Gex was a newcomer for the next title?

Pure elation. An insurmountable sense of nirvana. All other moments in my life will feel hollow and grey, because I will have already experienced the peak.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It'll never be a true celebration of gaming until we have Gex

Patience, patience. We're only NOW getting the games rereleased, we must bide our time just a bit longer...

 

[dream1ng]

It'll never be a true celebration of gaming until we have Gex

Smash is a celebration of what gaming could be without Gex

 

[Wonder Smash]

Because an argument doesn't gain credibility without some degree of evidence. But if you have none, fair enough, we can dismiss your point then.

This is...not an argument.

For the same reason that someone who is 6'1" is tall and someone who is 7'1" is tall. Because qualities scale.

That doesn't make any sense.

Mate if you think I actually believe Shin Megami Tensei is bigger than Assassin's Creed you might be sarcasm blind.

The point was that we have a whole bunch of series bigger than those two in a non-playable capacity.

There's no point in pulling the sarcasm excuse at this point.

I do appreciate how you're basically dismantling your own argument at this point by admitting the baselessness of all your points.

Except I've made it clear from the start that I'm merely speculating to why these big series don't have any representation at all at this point. Very much like how you ended up doing yourself in this very same discussion by saying, and I quote, "They don't have a lot probably just because they aren't as big as most of the companies that do, and not everyone is gonna make it,". So there's no point in trying to act like you're any different from me.

But you're the one who's making an assertion, my point is that we don't have proof of what you're claiming, which you've now concurred with, and that there is evidence, in fact, to the contrary, which you've handwaived away on something you've now admitted is a guess.

So thank you for negating your own argument.

There is no evidence to the contrary. You're guessing too.

That's not the point though, is it. Your argument was that the fans wouldn't stand for a big series not being playable. Clearly they did.

Yes, that was the point. That's because they knew the reason for it, so they went along with it. If they knew a series could work and still didn't make it in, fans would be disappointed with that.

So, by this logic, they'd be good with SoulCalibur just being a costume then.

So Soul Calibur is Tekken now?

Also, way to miss the point. Namco already had a playable character the roster, so it's not like the Heihachi Mii costume would have been the only content they would've had in Smash 4.

"This example disproves your argument"
"But we're not talking about that example"

The point is it disproves your argument. If there are examples that completely unhinge your stance, and you deal with them by not acknowledging them, or brushing it away as "well maybe it's an exception", it obviously means your rhetoric is faulty.

Btw, that wasn't your point. Your point was that major series wouldn't get in as non-playable, and SoulCalibur was one example, SMT another, despite a bigger series from the same company as the former and the same genre as the latter having gotten in as non-playable.

No, it means that you just don't understand my point and instead just want to argue just for the sake of it.

I brought up two companies that have content in Smash that don't feature certain series and two other companies that are more involved that also don't feature certain series, all to show you what I meant. Instead of providing evidence for why they're not in Smash at all (meaning all you can do is just guess, like me), you're bringing up other companies and series that don't really have anything to do with what I said...and only THEN finally figuring out that, yes, this is all just speculation. I never claimed to have "proof". You should have known this from the start, otherwise, you wouldn't have been wasting your time.

So, if Tales, and every other bigger series I mentioned is an exception, how many exceptions do there have to be before your theory starts to look pretty full of holes? Because if the barometer is series bigger than SMT/SC, there are a lot of exceptions.

I prefer something that's actually relevant.

People as a whole aren't happy characters don't make it unless the character is highly unpopular like Jonesy. People generally want all the characters they can get. It's a question of whether people would've been fine if he wasn't on the roster.

And honestly, had we got a different popular Namco character in 4, I think people would've been fine that Pac-Man wasn't playable. People forget that before he got in, Pac-Man was divisive, based on potential. He wasn't among the top requested characters, especially before learning Namco was the dev, nor was he the foregone conclusion from them, even though he was the most suspected outcome. Lloyd was also on wishlists/predictions going back to Brawl. But I think had we not got Pac-Man, he would've become one of the most popular and expected characters for Ultimate. And that's when people really start investing in outcomes in bigger numbers. Though the feasibility division would've become more pronounced too.

However, and this is important - just because most fans might be upset over, like, Sonic not getting in as playable doesn't mean that generalizes to most fans getting upset at any big franchise not getting in as playable - which was a false equivalency implicit in your post.

I mean you just said each series is treated differently. Now you're using Pac-Man as an example for a hypothetical response to a different series.

Just give a straight answer. I didn't need all that.

And yeah, I said each series is treated differently...by the company that owns them. Not by the fans. Don't try to twist it.

No, Tekken was considered during 4 and opted against. That's not later following up on the intention, that's having considered it earlier and thought otherwise at that point. Sakurai said there were no other strong Namco candidates for a fighter back during 4. The intention, at that point, wasn't there.

During Brawl, Pac-Man was considered, and likewise opted against. That's not having always intended to include Pac-Man. In fact it's the opposite.

You're basically just repeating what I said. When Tekken was being included, the intention was to give it a playable representation and by Ultimate, that's exactly what it got.

And people have rolled with it. Which disproves your argument. At least what it was a post before, before the goalposts started moving.

Disprove what argument?

Or maybe Sakurai really just ****ing hates all these series and/or companies. We can play the maybe game all day long. It doesn't lend any of these points credence if there's nothing to back it up except the absence of content.

You're pushing this one narrative of them not wanting it when there's absolutely no evidence of that at all. It makes it baseless, which makes it not worth defending as anything more than one of many possibilities. But given there is conflicting evidence for the suggestion of opting out, it makes the validity of your proposition all the more remote.

I understand your argument. I think it's flawed, but I understand it. Do you understand mine?

sigh

No...you don't understand my "argument". Because once again, this is not an argument. This is all speculation. The absence of content is exactly why this is left up to debate because NONE of us knows the reasons for all of that, so therefore, your "examples" are useless and therefore, cannot really disprove anything that I've been speculating. It's just a waste of time, really.

There's a lot of backpedaling and ignoring here, ngl. Now the argument is "some fans were let down" rather than, and I quote, "there's no way ANYBODY would be happy with those series being represented by just spirits, trophies, or Mii costumes". There's no acknowledging the big series I listed that fans seem ok by their non-playable representation, which were clearly bigger than SMT and SoulCalibur, which I guess you... forgot about before?

No, now it's just "fans don't always accept characters not being playable in Smash". Now it's "many fans were let down". That wasn't what was in contention. I don't deny there's disappointment and antipathy at points. I was disappointed by some deconfirmations, I'm sure everyone was at some point. But that's not what you were originally saying, so let's not go shifting the goalposts.

That's...the same thing I've been saying whole time. There's no point in trying to act like it's different. Fans wouldn't be happy if they were anything less than playable characters. As a matter fact, just a moment ago, you basically said the same thing:

"People as a whole aren't happy characters don't make it unless the character is highly unpopular like Jonesy."

So we're actually in agreement on this part, despite you acting like you didn't want to admit it.

Btw, almost all fans do eventually accept characters not being playable in Smash, because they have to. Because they can't do anything to change it for that game. In fact, it's some of the biggest series that fans were quickest to accept weren't playable. Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, Fallout, even Doom, people kinda just rolled with. Actually getting those series was the bigger surprise. Resident Evil came with disappointment, but didn't cause that much bemoaning. Some people were pretty convinced Monster Hunter would be playable, but even that deconfirmation didn't cause some shockwave of negativity. And I think people were mostly just surprised Dante actually did show up at that point of his costume reveal.

Everyone has their picks, but overall those hardest to accept seem the highly popular ones that become expected (in part due to echo chambers, but that's another discussion), not necessarily the biggest ones. Sometimes they go hand in hand, but often it's the opposite. Look at Geno and Isaac. A lot of the popular third-parties eschew this by being desired and entertained but not feeling assured of - like Doom Slayer was by the time he was costume'd.

See? Now you're coming around.

Fans will not be happy that the characters are not playable and be something else instead but they will eventually get over it. Simple as that.

 

[dream1ng]

I mean, Richter and Alucard were in Dead Cells. Crossovers aside, doesn't Minecraft have Roguelike elements?

Yeah but guest appearances don't dictate the genre of the source material. You can't really represent Dead Cells with Richter, any more than you could represent... like, Mario Kart with Isabelle.

 

[fogbadge]

Real talk, what would your reaction be if Gex was a newcomer for the next title?

voiced by danny john jules or bust

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Isnt Minecraft dungeons a roguelike? Idk i didnt play that.

It's a Dungeon Crawler hack 'n slash. Roguelikes do have Dungeon Crawler elements at times, which makes it easy to confuse the two.

It doesn't have building or mining either. So a unique spin-off that focuses on combat.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

With these Ultimate Deluxe vs Smash 6 reboot discussion still in dispute not only on SmashBoards but most on other sites like Social Media gives me a strong decision that next title will be one that will be the most divisive among the fandom even more than usual not matter the decision.

Probably something like SWSH was for Pokemon

 

[TheLamerGamer]

With these Ultimate Deluxe vs Smash 6 reboot discussion still in dispute not only on SmashBoards but most on other sites like Social Media gives me a strong decision that next title will be one that will be the most divisive among the fandom even more than usual not matter the decision.

Probably something like SWSH was for Pokemon

I can't imagine that, pokemon was controversial mostly because it was low quality (and also the pokedex thing, which isn't really comparable since a smash fighter is infinitely more difficult to develop than even multiple pokemon).

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Also, completely unrelated to this, and I'm not sure if people will agree with me on this or not, but if 2 users are having an argument with posts the length of essays, and nobody else is engaging with it, please spoiler tag the posts so we dont have to scroll past a dissertation just to get back to the main conversations going on.

I get it, this is a public forum and it isn't against the rules to have posts that length, but it makes using the site far more clunky and inconvenient than it should be.

Thanks.

 

[SPEN18]

The DLC, like Smash 4, will likely feature some cut vets (most likely ones that were in the project plan and had work done on them but weren't ready for base). But it won't be bringing things anywhere close to 100% retention, no. And the other reality is that, yeah, if you want any cut vets returning as DLC then you're naturally going to have to sacrifice some of the effort that could otherwise go into DLC newcomers.
Regardless, I'd prefer to avoid the "let's keep speculating like it's still DLC season" mentality.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Also, completely unrelated to this, and I'm not sure if people will agree with me on this or not, but if 2 users are having an argument with posts the length of essays, and nobody else is engaging with it, please spoiler tag the posts so we dont have to scroll past a dissertation just to get back to the main conversations going on.

I get it, this is a public forum and it isn't against the rules to have posts that length, but it makes using the site far more clunky and inconvenient than it should be.

Thanks.

If this continues, I'll do that in my next post.

 

[fogbadge]

With these Ultimate Deluxe vs Smash 6 reboot discussion still in dispute not only on SmashBoards but most on other sites like Social Media gives me a strong decision that next title will be one that will be the most divisive among the fandom even more than usual not matter the decision.

Probably something like SWSH was for Pokemon

you mean the games that became incredibly close to taking the best selling slot from red/blue?

 

[Oracle Link]

So i wanted to ask arround
is everyone on the same page that we do something like this for the next smash:

Zelda Minimum:
Adult Link (Multiple Incarnations)
Zelda (Multiple Incarnations)
Ganondorf (Multiple Incarantions?)
Sheik (In or not depending on your preference!)
Toon Link
Impa (echo, Costume or full character)

Kirby Minimum:
Kirby (With shadow kirby alt)
Meta Knight (with full alts)
Dedede (with masked and shadow alt)
Bandana Waddle Dee

Because lets be honest kirby and zelda should get 1 char at minimum right? and impa and bwd are the objectivly most logical/ fair choice?!

 

[Gengar84]

So i wanted to ask arround
is everyone on the same page that we do something like this for the next smash:

Zelda Minimum:
Adult Link (Multiple Incarnations)
Zelda (Multiple Incarnations)
Ganondorf (Multiple Incarantions?)
Sheik (In or not depending on your preference!)
Toon Link
Impa (echo, Costume or full character)

Kirby Minimum:
Kirby (With shadow kirby alt)
Meta Knight (with full alts)
Dedede (with masked and shadow alt)
Bandana Waddle Dee

Because lets be honest kirby and zelda should get 1 char at minimum right? and impa and bwd are the objectivly most logical/ fair choice?!

I’d personally be fine without Toon Link and I’d rather have a completely unique character like Skull Kid or Midna than a second Link but I’m okay either way because I know a lot of people really like him. My ideal Impa is a completely unique moveset based on one of her movesets in Hyrule Warriors rather than an Shiek echo based on Age of Calamity. Other than that, both lists look good to me.

 

[Dukefire]

If Gex is the next character, I'm ok with it. Honestly, I at the point where almost any character is ok to me for Smash Bros. Of course, there are still some request embers left like Shantae, Rayman and Crash Bandicoot.

However, I'm always worried as the internet can turn a friendly discussion into a pear shaped arguement at any given moment. Either by misaligned opinions or pure trolling for salt fuel.

 

[Gengar84]

If Gex is the next character, I'm ok with it. Honestly, I at the point where almost any character is ok to me for Smash Bros. Of course, there are still some request embers left like Shantae, Rayman and Crash Bandicoot.

However, I'm always worried as the internet can turn a friendly discussion into a pear shaped arguement at any given moment. Either by misaligned opinions or pure trolling for salt fuel.
View attachment 376093

Yeah, I’m pretty much fine with anyone too. Of course, there are many characters I’d personally be excited for more than others but it’s cool to see characters I’m not as familiar with too. Smash can be a good way to introduce people to franchises and characters they may have passed over before. Ike convinced me to try Fire Emblem and I’ve really enjoyed his two games and others in the series. A lot of my personal favorite characters don’t seem to be particularly popular with the Smash fanbase so I’m not really expecting many to show up. That just makes it all the more exciting if I do happen to get one or more of them.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

you mean the games that became incredibly close to taking the best selling slot from red/blue?

You see that only happened because people were gaslit into thinking it was the first home console Pokemon game so people were hyped, only to actually play the game and see the flaws themselves and now people hate the game.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Does everyone here believe the chance of an Ultimate Deluxe edition to be 0%?

Less likely than a flat out smash ultimate sequel, far more likely than a hard reboot.

I wouldn’t bet on it, but saying it’s a 0% chance feels too brash. I’d give it ~20%? Maybe 25%?

 

[fogbadge]

You see that only happened because people were gaslit into thinking it was the first home console Pokemon game so people were hyped, only to actually play the game and see the flaws themselves and now people hate the game.

that sounds like a bit of an edited truth there. first of all if the fans were convinced they were the first home console games then they did it too themselves cause it’s not a claim the devs ever made. secondly you don’t become the second biggest seller in a franchise that big if you’re considered that bad, unless you have a ridiculously hype machine but the national dex fiasco killed that. overall there were more people who loved it than hated it

 

[Garteam]

I decided to try my hand at making a Smash 6 roster:

[spoilers= General Ideas Behind the Roster]

• The two main goals when making this roster were 1. make it realistic and 2. make it so people wouldn't view it as a clear downgrade relative to Ultimate.
• I limited myself to 50 veterans, not counting any echo fighters or the Miis (mostly because they're more like a mechanic than conventional fighters at this point).
• When choosing veterans, I prioritized recognizability, fan favourite status inside and outside of Smash, characters that repped their own franchises, unique playstyles, and characters that could be ported from Ultimate with minimal changes (a lot of Ultimate's newcomers returned for this reason).
• I wanted the number of unique newcomers to fall somewhere below what Brawl and Smash for's base game brought while being above what Melee and Ultimate's base game brought. I landed on 14 unique newcomers, which is still a little high side but still within the realm of reason.
• I wanted every newcomer to be an exciting addition that would generally get people excited.

[/spoilers]
[spoilers= Veterans]

• Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Link, Zelda, Samus, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Marth, Pit, Shulk, Villager, Inkling, and Olimar don't really need any explanation.
• Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, and Piranha Plant didn't make the cut in the interest of not filling the roster with Mario characters. I feel pretty bad about cutting Rosalina and Bowser Jr. in particular because they are popular are far as Mario characters go and they have unique playstyles for Smash.
• I considered cutting K. Rool, but he was such a massive request prior to Ultimate, he's relatively popular among the casual crowd, he's pretty unique for a heavy due to his focus on projectiles, and Donkey Kong could use the representation.
• Ganondorf is kind of a no-brainer, but I'd ideally like to see him diversified more. I really considered cutting Sheik because of her very minor role in the greater Zelda series, but she's so popular amongst the Smash fanbase that I figured she could be grandfathered in and I didn't want Zelda to just have the main three. The Little Links didn't make it in the interest of adding more unique characters.
• I was really torn between Ridley and Zero Suit Samus, but I opted to go with Ridley in the interest of having the series' main antagonist over an alternate form of Samus. Plus, it'd be kind of depressing for Ridley to be cut after his first entry in the series following a 17-year campaign to get the guy in.
• Cutting Meta Knight felt like sacrilege, but King Dedede was prioritized over him due to having a more major role in the Kirby series and a more unique moveset. If I could add one more veteran, Meta Knight would be second in line behind a character that I'll cover later.
• StarFox was a series I deliberated a lot on. I considered keeping all three, keeping Fox and Wolf, and just keeping Fox at one point. I decided to choose Falco due to his status as an icon of the Smash series and his popularity in Melee and Brawl. I still feel pretty bad about cutting Wolf due to how much of an impact he's made in Ultimate.
• Keeping Pokemon Trainer could be considered cheating because he's technically three characters in one, but he's one of the most iconic characters on the roster to a general audience, the trio of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are pretty amazing as far as Pokemon reps go, and Ultimate really hit a bull's eye in their implementation, which not only made the character popular but makes them relatively easy to port over with few changes.
• I opted to go with Mewtwo and Lucario for the remaining Pokemon slots due to both characters being iconic, popular in the Pokemon series, and their frequent appearances in merchandise. Greninja almost made the cut for similar reasons, but Mewtwo and Lucario feel just a cut above Greninja in this regard (even if Greninja did outperform them on the Pokemon of the Year poll). I'd still like to see Lucario reworked so he doesn't feel like a floaty mess.
• Jigglypuff was hands down the hardest cut in this roster simply because she's a member of the original 12. However, I didn't want to flood the returning vets roster with Pokemon and Jigglypuff is relatively unremarkable in her home series. I cut Pichu and Incineroar for similar reasons. If I had another slot remaining, I'd fill it with the Puff.
• Ness and Captain Falcon are too popular within the Smash series and their series are too fondly remembered to seriously consider getting rid of them. Lucas was largely a victim of the 50-character limit, as I wanted to include a wider range of playstyles and Mother still has Ness.
• Deciding which retro reps to keep was the toughest choice I had to make in this roster, as there's a pretty strong argument for all of their inclusions. I decided to limit myself to 2 characters from this category, as any more would force me to dip into secondary characters from active series and the third parties that would otherwise make the cut. I decided to keep Mr. Game & Watch and Little Mac. G&W has become something of a Smash staple and the revamp that he got in Ultimate really makes him feel actualized in both his playstyle and appearance, which makes him relatively easy to port. Little Mac is probably a somewhat controversial choice, but Punch-Out's extensive legacy (seriously, how many references did it get in the Mario movie), Little Mac's unique playstyle, and the fact that Punch-Out is a series rather than a singular release like many of the other retro reps led me to prioritize him.
• Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt were all considered, but I opted to go with Little Mac and G&W for the reasons above.
• Fire Emblem was also a really tough series to decide. Ike seemed the most obvious inclusion (behind Marth) due to his unique moveset, the popularity of the Tellius games in the Fire Emblem fanbase, Ike's popularity in both Fire Emblem and Smash, and his prominence in Ultimate's marketing. I really struggled to decide between Robin and Byleth, but I opted to go with Byleth in the interest of representing Three Houses, Byleth's popularity in Ultimate's competitive scene, and because Awakening already has a rep in Lucina. I did consider bringing Roy back, but I opted to go with the Fire Emblem characters that have more unique movesets. Corrin just wasn't popular enough to include.
• I considered bringing Palutena back due to her unique moveset, but Kid Icarus didn't have enough priority over other series to get a second rep.
• Pyra/Mythra are popular in Smash and Xenoblade, they have a pretty unique moveset, and Xenoblade is definitely big enough for a second rep, so they stayed.
• Isabelle almost made the roster, but I cut her due to her somewhat unpopular playstyle in Smash and her somewhat diminished role in the Animal Crossing series relative to in the Wii U and 3DS era.
• I heavily considered Wii Fit Trainer and Min Min, but they both hail from series with somewhat dubious futures and are relatively unpopular in Smash (although they are not without their fans)
• I decided to bring back most of the DLC characters from Ultimate, simply because they all have a lot of merit behind their inclusions.
• The exceptions to this trend were Hero and Sora, both because they seem to have additional licensing issues that most other third parties don't have (Hero's issues with Sugiyama's music and Sora happening by the skin of his teeth in Ultimate, although it remains to be seen if things change) and in the interest of not completely filling the returning vets with DLC characters.
• If I had 10 more slots, I would add Jigglypuff, Meta Knight, Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Robin, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Hero, and Sora.

[/spoilers]
[spoilers= Newcomers]

• Waluigi - Arguably the most requested character of the post-Ultimate period, he's the most notable Mario character to not have been in Smash after Toad, and his personality gives him a lot of moveset potential.
• Bandana Waddle Dee - His role in the Kirby series and his popularity as a Smash candidate only continues to increase, his source material perfectly tailors him to have an easy-to-envision and unique Smash moveset, and he has limited competition in both his home series and among other popular first-party characters.
• Meowscarada - Pokemon's newest gen always gets a character, it seems like the Springattio line will have a major role in the new season of the anime, and a moveset based around grass-type attacks and sleight-of-hand tricks could be a lot of fun.
• Octoling - While Octoling could be an echo fighter, Splatoon is big enough of a series to justify a second unique fighter and Splatoons 2 and 3 added enough new weapons for Octoling to be distinct from Inkling
• Ring Fit Adventurer - Ring Fit Adventure is Nintendo's most successful new IP from the Switch era and the combination of utilizing the ring and her exercise-based attacks would allow her to be a fun and distinct successor to the Wii Fit Trainer.
• Geno - He's incredibly popular, he's got a unique basis for a moveset, and he's finally back in the limelight with the Super Mario RPG remake.
• Tails and Knuckles - I'm covering these two together because there's a lot of overlap in the reasons behind their inclusion. I put a lot of emphasis on filling out the supporting casts of third-party franchises, as this is an easy way to get a lot of big newcomers that catch eyes into Smash without blowing up the game's licensing budget. Sonic is an incredibly popular franchise, he's the sole third-party character to appear in every Smash game featuring non-Nintendo characters, and his new movie franchise has introduced the series to a new, wider audience. So, I think two newcomers from Sonic isn't that out there. Tails and Knuckles seem like two of the most obvious candidates for this role given their legacy in the Sonic games, their major roles in the second Sonic Movie, and the way that you could juxtapose an aerial and ground-focused moveset between the two of them. While I also considered Eggman as a Sonic newcomer, I ended up liking the combination of Tails and Knuckles more than Tails or Knuckles and Eggman.
• X - I imagine this will be the most controversial newcomer, but I think X deserves a spot for a couple of reasons. Mega Man is a massive franchise with a strong legacy and it has received a ton of content in Smash between Smash for and Ultimate. So, I don't think two newcomers are necessarily that out there. X is the most popular and iconic version of the blue bomber after Mega Man himself and he's the protagonist of X1, which is up there with 2 as one of the most celebrated, popular, and iconic games in the Mega Man series. Additionally, X himself has a relatively easy-to-envision moveset, based around a glass cannon playstyle with strong movement options, a sea of projectiles, and the ability to charge his weapons for powerful mix-ups while being light and having very options for close combat.
• Zero - He's an incredibly popular and important character in the greater Mega Man series that is slowly building up support as a Smash candidate. He's also got a tailor-made moveset for Smash and he'd fit in incredibly well alongside X, given the Mega Man X series' emphasis on X and Zero's bond.
• Chun-Li - She's the first lady of fighting games, Street Fighter is seeing a renaissance with the success of Street Fighter VI, and she's slowly gaining support in Smash speculation.
• Alucard - Much like with Mega Man, Castlevania is a massive name that has received a ton of content in Smash. Alucard seems like a no-brainer for the next Castlevania character. He's incredibly popular and important in his home series, he has a ton of moveset potential, Symphony of the Night is simultaneously one of the most popular games in the series and a crown jewel of the PS1's library, and Sakurai has even considered him in the past.
• Yu - Persona's explosion in popularity since the release of 5 and Joker's insane popularity as a character in Ultimate definitely justifies getting a second Persona character. Yu seems like the most obvious edition, being the protagonist of the most popular entry in the series behind 5. Plus, while Joker focused on Persona's dichotomous gameplay system through alternating between a resource-gathering phase and a combat-focused phase, Yu could represent Persona's combat systems by augmenting his attacks through switching through a handful of Persona (probably Izanagi, Jack Frost, and Jack O' Lantern for a electric-ice-fire trio).
• Bomberman - Between the assist trophy and the deluxe Mii costume, he seems like a very strong candidate for the next Smash. Plus, he's from a series with a ton of legacy and his abilities lend themselves well to a fun, trap-based moveset.
• Crash - Due to the number of third party series I brought back, I decided to limit myself to only one fully new series. I opted to go for Crash, as he was the popular character during Ultimate's DLC era that didn't get anything in the main game.

[/spoilers]
[spoilers= Echo fighters]

• I opted to bring back most of the echo fighters from Ultimate, as most of them require little dev time and there's really no reason not to include them.
• Chrom was the exception to this trend, as Roy himself was not brought back.
• Dixie was included as a Diddy echo as an easy way to pad out the number of Donkey Kong characters. Ideally, she'd have unique throws and her Up-B would be replaced with a variation of Spinning Kong.
• I'm honestly surprised that Shadow didn't make it as an echo fighter in Ultimate given the fact he's a Sonic clone in SA2, Heroes, and Forces. So, I decided to add him here. He'd be slightly slower than Sonic, but would hit harder and have a teleporting Up-B to compensate.
• Jin is probably the biggest stretch to make an echo fighter, but I think it could work if you primarily based Jin off of his Tekken 3 appearance and his ability to swap with Devil Jin in Tekken Tag Tournament 2, similar to how Ken is primarily based on SFII so he could echo Ryu. Kazuya's newer moves could also be swapped with some of Jin's moves from Tekken 4 onwards.
• Big Boss was added both to get a second Metal Gear rep in, to promote the Metal Gear Solid 3 remake, and because Big Boss is the second most important character in the series after Snake himself. His trapping moves would be worse than Snake's, but his physical attacks would be better because of his association with CQC.
• Makoto was added to represent the three Persona games that Atlus loves to promote and to promote the Persona 3 remake. He would swap Jack O'Latern for Orpheus and Izanagi for Pixie respectively.

[/spoilers]

 

[Hadokeyblade]

that sounds like a bit of an edited truth there. first of all if the fans were convinced they were the first home console games then they did it too themselves cause it’s not a claim the devs ever made. secondly you don’t become the second biggest seller in a franchise that big if you’re considered that bad, unless you have a ridiculously hype machine but the national dex fiasco killed that. overall there were more people who loved it than hated it

Thats the thing, the fans didnt think it was the first home console Pokemon game, the general public did.

And we all know the general public has the say in whats popular and whats not and because a lot of them got into the series WITH sword and shield and just assumed "This is what Pokemon is i guess"

To the actual Pokemon fanbase Sword and shield is a divisive mess that people like to rag on but for people outside the fanbase, the general public just kinda assume this is what the franchise is because they dont like playing handheld games and never played the older games.