Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Guys, imagine Smash 64 but it has 9 Mario characters, 2 Kirby characters because they're Sakurai's babies, and then, like, Captain Falcon for some reason.

Then imagine that we might, and I mean might, get Donkey Kong one day. But you can forget about Link and Pikachu who are universally deemed impossible.

This is like where Smash currently is from a general gaming standpoint.

I can’t really argue with that but I feel like Smash is just beginning this new direction so I think it’s fair to give it some more time to build up third parties if they plan to continue as a general gaming celebration. On big thing that would help with that is an increased focus on Western IP’s. The large majority of franchises in Smash are Japanese so I think it would help to branch out more. Banjo and Steve are a good start but I think we could use a lot more.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

While Smash may not be the ideal celebration of gaming just yet, it's absolutely making progress towards getting there. How many other crossover video games or crossover game franchises out there can you name that have this many different video game IPs and characters involved?

And don't say Playstation All-Stars.

 

[Gengar84]

I also think a true celebration of gaming is more than “what’s popular right now” or even a collection of the best selling franchises. I would personally try to include several franchises from every generation going back to at least the NES even if the franchises are no longer popular or active these days. I think characters should be able to qualify for a variety of reasons beyond just sales. Franchises that were pioneers of their genre or had a big influence on gaming are important too. I think it would be fun to get a few surprise picks that are mostly chosen because they’d be really fun to play in Smash even if they game from a relatively smaller series.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I also think a true celebration of gaming is more than “what’s popular right now” or even a collection of the best selling franchises. I would personally try to include several franchises from every generation going back to at least the NES even if the franchises are no longer popular or active these days. I think characters should be able to qualify for a variety of reasons beyond just sales. Franchises that were pioneers of their genre or had a big influence on gaming are important too. I think it would be fun to get a few surprise picks that are mostly chosen because they’d be really fun to play in Smash even if they game from a relatively smaller series.

Thats the mindset that probably got us Banjo and Terry,

 

[SPEN18]

I can’t really argue with that but I feel like Smash is just beginning this new direction so I think it’s fair to give it some more time to build up third parties if they plan to continue as a general gaming celebration. On big thing that would help with that is an increased focus on Western IP’s. The large majority of franchises in Smash are Japanese so I think it would help to branch out more. Banjo and Steve are a good start but I think we could use a lot more.

The point was not just that it isn't there yet but also that there are serious roadblocks to it ever getting there, if that makes sense.

I do relate to asking for more Western stuff, though.

 

[Gengar84]

The point was not just that it isn't there yet but also that there are serious roadblocks to it ever getting there, if that makes sense.

I do relate to asking for more Western stuff, though.

Fair enough. I’m willing to wait until I see the final roster for the next Smash before I make that judgement. You might be right though. I feel like the next Smash will be very telling for the future of the franchise. I feel like Sakurai is either going to go all out with third parties or scale it back to somewhere between Brawl and Smash 4 levels and put the focus back on Nintendo.

 

[sal ig]

While Smash may not be the ideal celebration of gaming just yet, it's absolutely making progress towards getting there. How many other crossover video games or crossover game franchises out there can you name that have this many different video game IPs and characters involved?

And don't say Playstation All-Stars.

Fortnite

 

[Quillion]

I feel like Sakurai is either going to go all out with third parties or scale it back to somewhere between Brawl and Smash 4 levels and put the focus back on Nintendo.

I still think the third option of have Smash Bros. vs. [other company] would be a good approach too. Not inherently better, mind, but different enough to make the game stand out.

Least that way we can get deep cuts from [other company] like Captain Commando or Alex Kidd instead of the surface cuts that Ultimate's current approach demands.

 

[Ivander]

I will kill you

insert words for applicable post here

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Fortnite

I realised a while ago that while fortnite is objectively a huge crossover, I'm not a fan of the way it does it for the most part. Most franchises they represent (with some genuinely really well handled exceptions) just feel like they're pointing at the character going "Look, it's that guy! Please spend Vbucks ", when all it is is an overpriced skin.

Like, Street Fighter technically has way more characters "playable" in fortnite, but they're purely cosmetic, while smash bros has 2 fully playable characters faithful to their original appearances, a fully functioning assist, a unique stage and a load of music.

Although I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the idea of having a squad of Goku, Darth Vader, Master-Chief and Doctor Who (soon) equally funny and really cool.

 

[Gengar84]

I still think the third option of have Smash Bros. vs. [other company] would be a good approach too. Not inherently better, mind, but different enough to make the game stand out.

Least that way we can get deep cuts from [other company] like Captain Commando or Alex Kidd instead of the surface cuts that Ultimate's current approach demands.

Yeah, I’ve brought up that suggestion a few times here myself. I feel like this is a good direction to go if they want to keep the roster to a manageable size while giving us something fresh each game. Not sure if I feel it’s the most likely option but I think it could work.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I realised a while ago that while fortnite is objectively a huge crossover, I'm not a fan of the way it does it for the most part. Most franchises they represent (with some genuinely really well handled exceptions) just feel like they're pointing at the character going "Look, it's that guy! Please spend Vbucks ", when all it is is an overpriced skin.

Like, Street Fighter technically has way more characters "playable" in fortnite, but they're purely cosmetic, while smash bros has 2 fully playable characters faithful to their original appearances, a fully functioning assist, a unique stage and a load of music.

Although I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the idea of having a squad of Goku, Darth Vader, Master-Chief and Doctor Who (soon) equally funny and really cool.

Though ironically, Jonesy would be rather unique if he came to Smash: a run-and-gun jumpabout with a pickaxe for melee and an alterred version of Steve's building.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

an alterred version of Steve's building

I think this sentence made me more anti-Jonesy than I've ever been.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Fortnite

I realised a while ago that while fortnite is objectively a huge crossover, I'm not a fan of the way it does it for the most part. Most franchises they represent (with some genuinely really well handled exceptions) just feel like they're pointing at the character going "Look, it's that guy! Please spend Vbucks ", when all it is is an overpriced skin.

Like, Street Fighter technically has way more characters "playable" in fortnite, but they're purely cosmetic, while smash bros has 2 fully playable characters faithful to their original appearances, a fully functioning assist, a unique stage and a load of music.

Although I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the idea of having a squad of Goku, Darth Vader, Master-Chief and Doctor Who (soon) equally funny and really cool.

Not only that, but a lot (not all) of these character skins didn't even debut in video games and thus aren't from video game IPs to begin with.

Fortnite has a lot of crossovers, but crossovers are neither the game's main focus, nor are most of it's crossovers from other video games.

 

[Quillion]

I think this sentence made me more anti-Jonesy than I've ever been.

Could you imagine if they revamped Villager to have their terraforming abilities from New Horizons?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Delete this.
I mistook terraforming with Terra Formas lol.
For those who don't know, that's where the Obunga meme comes from.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Could you imagine if they revamped Villager to have their terraforming abilities from New Horizons?

I actually wanted Isabelle to do that before she was revealed.

Then again, the Isabelle I imagined was nowhere near as egregious as Steve. For one, she couldn't make things in the air.

 

[fogbadge]

I actually wanted Isabelle to do that before she was revealed.

Then again, the Isabelle I imagined was nowhere near as egregious as Steve. For one, she couldn't make things in the air.

how? isabelle was revealed alongside new horizons

 

[Swamp Sensei]

how? isabelle was revealed alongside new horizons

It was due to her roll as the mayor's assistant in New Leaf. She could build things there.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Guys, imagine Smash 64 but it has 9 Mario characters, 2 Kirby characters because they're Sakurai's babies, and then, like, Captain Falcon for some reason.

Then imagine that we might, and I mean might, get Donkey Kong one day. But you can forget about Link and Pikachu who are universally deemed impossible.

This is like where Smash currently is from a general gaming standpoint.

This is such a gross false equivalency. Is smash a perfect one to one representation of gaming? No, but it’s a good one for what third parties we got. Every single third party in smash (save maybe Banjo, who specifically got in due to fan demand) adds a lot in terms of representing gaming.

This kind of hyperbole is just not it. I know you have your own fringe views on how smash should handle third parties, but this isn’t a zero sum game. Saying smash isn’t a celebration of gaming because we don’t have say, Crash Bandicoot or Master Chief, so the whole concept of it being a celebration is worthless is flat out dumb. We have some of the biggest characters per their genres and systems out there. There will always be holes in that regard, yes. Gaming is vast, there’s always some third party to add. But that doesn’t mean that as a celebration it lacks any merit. That would be like saying Smash will never be a full celebration of Nintendo without Isaac.

There will always be more stuff to add to smash. Acting like any absence makes it not a celebration of Nintendo or gaming history is just digging your heels in and being willfully ignorant.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Like, Street Fighter technically has way more characters "playable" in fortnite, but they're purely cosmetic, while smash bros has 2 fully playable characters faithful to their original appearances, a fully functioning assist, a unique stage and a load of music.

Unrelated but i'm still waiting for those to come back to the shop and am annoyed they havent, i need my girl Sakura in my rotation of characters alongside Hinata, Optimus prime and Goku black.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If certain people call Smash a Celebration of Gaming, then Marvel vs. Capcom should be called a "Celebration of Comic Book History", despite having one single comic company and just being the half of a bigger roster.
Here, an even worse comparison than the previous.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Two things can be simultaneously true.

One is that much of the DLC and non-Nintendo elements brought into Smash are largely driven by a desire to reach broader audiences and thus increase sales for titles in the series.

Two is that the various efforts to make non-Nintendo fighters faithful to their series and the sheer scale of inclusion of elements big and small (music, spirits, stage background elements) that realistically would not make much difference in terms of sales does suggest that there is a concerted effort to pay tribute to such franchises. So much so that whether fully intended by their placement with Smash, the series in its own way has become a celebration of gaming beyond merely Nintendo's legacy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Maybe they'll release that 64 game Verde Coeden Scalesworth most wanted comes from...

Wait isn't Zelda an Adventure Game?

Zelda is often called an Action-Adventure if it helps. But yes, it is.

And if only we could get anything Quest 64 released again. You can at most find stuff like hacks(we have Hard Mode, French Vanilla, and Randomzier), remakes of sorts, or spiritual successors. But nothing official for the most part(though do note some of these are on Steam in the case of spiritual successors or at least one remake of sorts). It's kind of complicated for remakes, as those have copyright issues if you want to do more than have a fun thing online(so official platforms are more the issue).

 

[dream1ng]

I feel like the "celebration of gaming" is a perfect example of people making too much of Sakurai's words, which is something he's explicitly spoken on before and why he's so selective with what he says nowadays.

Every single person knows exactly what he means. He means Smash now incorporates elements from across gaming. And everyone knows why Nintendo has the vast bulk of the content.

Of course Smash doesn't equally represent all aspects of gaming, it never strived to, and it wouldn't be realistic or feasible for it to do so, both given how the series began or just in general. Of course it's not equal. Eighty-something characters are Japanese, there are two characters on the roster from western IP. One of which used to be co-owned by a Japanese company.

Smash isn't equal now, it wasn't equal to begin with, and it will probably never be equal, even as the third-party presence increases. That's not what it tries to be. It's a Nintendo game that focuses largely on Nintendo, but features aspects of gaming from across the industry. In that way, it celebrates gaming.

But everyone knows that. Everyone knows that's really what it means. If you have to go, "but Smash doesn't do x", well then... that's not what it means.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Unrelated but i'm still waiting for those to come back to the shop and am annoyed they havent, i need my girl Sakura in my rotation of characters alongside Hinata, Optimus prime and Goku black.

I played fortnite literally once when it was at the peak of its popularity, so I'm not 100% caught up on all its characters, so seeing that as an unironic sentence you can say about the game feels weird.

I might be forced to play when the doctor who stuff gets added though (or in the <1% chance a megaten character shows up).

 

[SPEN18]

This is such a gross false equivalency. Is smash a perfect one to one representation of gaming? No, but it’s a good one for what third parties we got. Every single third party in smash (save maybe Banjo, who specifically got in due to fan demand) adds a lot in terms of representing gaming.

This kind of hyperbole is just not it.

I'd call it analogy rather than equivalency, there to make a specific point and not meant to be analyzed down to the detail.
It's really not all that hyperbolic, though, when you consider what's missing from Smash in the general gaming scheme and the percentage of roster seats still held by Ninty reps.
Again there's a big difference between "not perfect, but good" and "not good, but downright awful." There's a big difference between "has some holes in it" and "is literally a massive crater." Besides that, it's not just about what isn't there but also what is there, and as I said, what is there is a vast majority of Nintendo reps along with a smattering of guests.

I mean, I get what people are saying in that when they add a 3P rep it gives people a chance to celebrate the impact of that particular character/franchise/genre/whatever. So in that sense people are "celebrating gaming" without it having to refer to a celebration of all of gaming, or having to refer to "celebrating gaming" in the context of that being an overarching goal or thematic for the rostering process.
The latter is what I'm principally talking about here. Using "celebrating general gaming" as a sort of mantra or basis for the rostering paradigm. "Celebrating gaming" is a pretty useless guideline for picking characters, from both a pragmatic and thematic standpoint. It's not a worthy goal IMO when you take into account the success you could have with it relative to the success you could have chasing the goal of representing/celebrating Nintendo history. Neither can be done perfectly but one can be done, again, much more successfully than the other, and while some guests are fine I wouldn't want that contingent to get too much in the way of the main event.

 

[Quillion]

It was due to her roll as the mayor's assistant in New Leaf. She could build things there.

Now I'm scared that they'll give the terraforming ability to Tom Nook.

Come to think of it, a knockback-based platform fighter where you have to landscape the stage itself could be a cool idea if everyone is based around it rather than just one character.

 

[Sucumbio]

I've had a revelation. It's all gonna be alright. I think a lot of people's favorites are coming back and I'm not going to get caught up in who won't return and focus on who will be new.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I hope Street fighter and KOF come back for the next game entirely because it was a missed opportunity not to have this in the song list for Ultimate

(Also for the love of god use music from games other than SF2, that is probably my biggest complaint with Ultimate... Which is probably saying something about what i feel about Ultimate lol)

 

[Sucumbio]

I hope Street fighter and KOF come back for the next game entirely because it was a missed opportunity not to have this in the song list for Ultimate

(Also for the love of god use music from games other than SF2, that is probably my biggest complaint with Ultimate... Which is probably saying something about what i feel about Ultimate lol)

It's interesting because we don't know if there was a necessary reason. Playing it safe in case SF2 was still the most recognizable entry? Licensing issues because some games were PlayStation games? Idk it's maybe something along those lines tho...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

It's interesting because we don't know if there was a necessary reason. Playing it safe in case SF2 was still the most recognizable entry? Licensing issues because some games were PlayStation games? Idk it's maybe something along those lines tho...

The only one with potential licensing issue is 5, since Sony was the one who paid to have that game made.

As a side note i think it would be neat if a future smash stage used Ken's stage from Alpha 2, or something based on it.

Similar to Terry's stage which has characters in the background pulled from SNK's shared universe of games, this stage pulls characters from Capcom's shared universe of games.

 

[PeridotGX]

Give me one good reason why Doctor John Zoidberg shouldn't be in smash (you can't)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Does Sora counts as a licensed video game rep?

In so much as he is licensed from another company, yes. If you mean as a non-video game rep, no.

Which is why aiming for such a goal is ultimately pointless because it will be a goal that will never realistically reach.

What a nonsensical statement.

"Celebrating gaming" is not an end point. Smash is already celebration of gaming. Just because it can't celebrate every single game ever doesn't mean that it's not.

That's like saying "There's no point in celebrating the new year, because realistically, you'll never be able to celebrate all the years."

doubt they'd ever use Guybrush since getting ONE Disney character in was probably difficult

I would argue that makes it easier, not harder. Because it means there's already a working relationship and line of comminication in place with that company.

Give me one good reason why Doctor John Zoidberg shouldn't be in smash (you can't)

 

[Wonder Smash]

Agreed, but that's exactly why it's not a case of "playable or nothing" for big series, especially ones where the company is already involved in a playable capacity. There are a lot of big series that only wound up as costumes or spirits or ATs.

You can't really say for sure that that's not the case. Like I said, that could very well be the way the company feels about these specific series.

No, I meant SMT and SoulCalibur. They're also effectively part of a shared universe with their respective playable counterparts. It's not just Keen and Doom. In fact the overlap between those series is often much less oblique.

Also yes Art of Fighting hasn't had a game in forever, but characters from that series and Fatal Fury effectively get to count as dual series characters between their origin series and KoF. Ryo is a staple of KoF and still has plenty of recent appearances.

He's also, fwiw, basically the most overall niche third-party costume we have (taking into account that, unlike characters, some costumes skew heavily Japanese or west, and may be quite niche in the other). So if that's the best parallel, it's not particularly auspicious.

It's related to a larger series and is considered niche? Sounds like the perfect comparison to me.

At their ceiling, absolutely it makes no sense. SMT and SoulCalibur could feasibly receive a character. Keen never will. But I never claimed the series were on par with each other.

At the floor, they could receive the same treatment - which would be a reference of some kind within a corresponding pack. I think it's likelier SMT or SoulCalibur receive something a little more substantial like a costume or spirit event (or whatever the spirit equivalent might be going forward), but it's possible it's less. It's possible Keen receives more than just a small reference as well, but I think it's quite unlikely.

But you did say it makes little sense to argue that Keen is niche and dormant so maybe it could get a Mii costume but SMT/SoulCalibur are bigger and more significant so they'll be playable or nothing. It's like thinking Alex Kidd, the much lesser known Sega mascot, could get a Mii costume or something less but Final Fantasy, one of the most critically acclaimed and longest running RPG series, would have gotten anything less than a playable representation. A series of that magnitude would likely cause an outrage if it didn't have a playable representation.

But this is a baseless presumption predicated on a theoretical. It's not a real leg to stand on, there's no evidence it will be the case in this situation.

There's no reason to believe KT or ASW have some dogma of playability or nothing, especially since both have IPs that aren't currently playable: Fatal Frame and Kunio, respectively. You've chosen companies where all they have is supporting content. They don't have a lot probably just because they aren't as big as most of the companies that do, and not everyone is gonna make it. Of all companies to be picky, these two seem very unlikely candidates.

Look at the content they do have; in Koei Tecmo's case, it's a series they co-own with Nintendo and ASW's case, it's a series that they didn't technically create themselves. It's not the major series that the former owns or the homegrown series that the latter made. None of those are in Smash.

There's obviously a reason for that and, of course, we don't know the reason. I never claimed I did but saying it's because "they aren't as big as most of the companies that do" is a baseless assumption itself.

Plus this argument is incongruent with the series we were actually talking about, given there's no reason to believe Sega/Atlus and especially Namco would have some "playable or nothing" mentality. If anything, Microsoft, current owner of Keen, would be closer; they had no supporting content from IPs apart from the two which were playable (given acquiring the Bethesda content predated the buyout). But even attributing this either/or to them is ill-founded.

This is just an extension of the constantly disproven logic of looking at something absent and deciding its absence is because it can't happen.

I never said Microsoft in the first place. Obviously, id Software allowed Doom Slayer to be a Mii costume after all.

However, the playable or nothing mentality is not as simple as you think it is. It's not out of the possibility that a company can look at other big time series like Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Sonic, and Mega Man, and go "we want THAT for our series". If you admit Soul Calibur is a major fighting game series (like Tekken and Street Fighter) and Shin Megami Tensei is a major RPG series like (Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest), it makes sense to believe that they would likely get the same treatment that the other series got. It would look so wrong and awkward if they got something less than that at this point in the Smash series.

 

[fogbadge]

Unrelated but i'm still waiting for those to come back to the shop and am annoyed they havent, i need my girl Sakura in my rotation of characters alongside Hinata, Optimus prime and Goku black.

which sakura?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

which sakura?

The one who's a clone of Ryu.

 

[fogbadge]

The one who's a clone of Ryu.

is this in gameplay or lore?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

is this in gameplay or lore?

In gameplay, she watched Ryu on TV during SF1 and started copying his moves, being a natural at it and managing to fully copy the moves Ryu and Ken had to learn under a master.

She is my favorite character from this series.

She left the fortnite shop just a few daysbefore i picked the game back up again and i have been annoyed by this ever since.

 

[fogbadge]

In gameplay, she watched Ryu on TV during SF1 and started copying his moves, being a natural at it and managing to fully copy the moves Ryu and Ken had to learn under a master.

She is my favorite character from this series.

She left the fortnite shop just a few daysbefore i picked the game back up again and i have been annoyed by this ever since.

I did not pick up much from SF4 on 3ds