Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

And Cloud! But granted hes already in smash!

I honestly forgot Cloud was a summon in one game

 

[SPEN18]

I'm a little reluctant to believe that the Switch 2 will get released in early 2024 like the rumours are saying, if only because support for Splatoon 3 is supposed to last for 2 years like it did for Splatoon 2. 3 Released in late 2022, so that its support should take it to mid-late 2024 as well.

Then again, they dropped Warioware Gold and the Bowser's Inside Story remake well after the Switch had already came out, so it might not be the strangest thing they've ever done lol.

Support for the last system doesn't just end abruptly when the next thing comes out; there's always at least a bit of a tail-off. One can see that historically but it also makes sense given varying timelines for different developers and also varying timelines for users, who do not just drop their old system and buy the new one all at the same time.

Also most of what I've seen suggests the second half of 2024, not the first? Wouldn't be surprised if people guessing at the first are doing so out of speculation that Nintendo would copy the Switch's timeline of revealing in the fall and releasing the next spring. Honestly despite all the rumors I wouldn't be surprised if they DID copy that timeline but with the reveal in 2024 and release in 2025.

 

[Stratos]

I wonder if a future Super Mario Bros. movie comes out (not necessarily the 2nd or 3rd, not even the 4th) will they include a parallel universe of Paper Mario? I'm writing this because of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, where Mario and Paper Mario meet.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

When you think about it, he has a point.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Perkilator]

When you think about it, he has a point.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I’m mixed on this. On one hand, there are definitely plenty of iconic gaming series that deserve to be in Smash. On the other hand, lesser known characters like Lucas (an example used in the tweet after this) are as much a piece of gaming history as someone like Master Chief or Kratos. Ideally, my vision of Smash being a “celebration of gaming” is more or less what Ultimate is: all the characters, both from Nintendo and 3rd party, that can feasibly work in Smash, iconic status be damned. In Sakurai’s words:

 

[Hadokeyblade]

When you think about it, he has a point.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Because the other two console manufacturers dont hav the balls to do it.

Sony would probably make it a movie or something like most of their big name releases.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean you have to give credit to Smash for at least trying to be a celebration of gaming in some respects, even if trying to encompass the all the major aspects within that medium is a practical impossibility anyway. I mean given the sheer difficulty in getting so many different third parties in a single game (beyond the basic skins you see in Fortnite)? There's something to be said for the likes of SSB even making an attempt.

Especially in an industry where cultural legacy of games is very hit and miss (let alone the actual critical physical stuff like source code) having the best selling fighting game of all time feature stuff like Psycho Soldier playing on stage where elements from Xevious appear as part of a character while paddles from Color TV-Game 15 are popping up?

That's still significant.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

When you think about it, he has a point.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

To be fair, Sony were barely able to make a smash bros like game focused exclusively on PlayStation games, and I wouldn't trust Microsoft not to just buy every company involved. A third party would probably be competent at it, but then there's no way they'd have any Nintendo characters. And while the tweet said it doesn't work as a celebration of gaming because it's mostly Nintendo, it would just feel incomplete without Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc.

Something like Smash as it is now could only ever exist under Nintendo, and I don't see that changing.

 

[Speed Weed]

Hey I'd just like to report a fun little bit of Nintendo news that's been happening lately.

For those who don't know, this past July 15th marked the 40th anniversary of the Famicom (the Japanese NES). And in the JP version of the last direct, we got news that they were setting up a website to celebrate that milestone. And here it is:

ファミリーコンピュータ | 任天堂

「ファミリーコンピュータ」の公式サイトです。

www.nintendo.com

It's been up for the past couple of weeks, and as you can see, there are these big spreads of sprites from all kinds of FC games, there's a video series happening, a bunch of polls about specific types of anecdotes of the era ("what was the first FC game you bought", "what game did you get a high score on", etc), a list of every Nintendo-made game on the system (that they could show at least, so for example the Popeye games aren't there). But what's really been catching my attention is the "History of Family Computer" page, which shows a year-by-year timeline of important games on the system.

The list still isn't done yet, it currently only goes up to 1988 - they're periodically updating it by adding in later years and apparently also retroactively adding in extra games for past years - but it's really cool regardless. You can find the timeline on the home page, it's linked in the "History of Family Computer" image, but as a lot of these were Japan-only or went by different names in different regions, I've decided to transcribe them all here.

Spoiler

asterisk (*) signifies that it's a game they went back and added to that year in a later update

1983:

-Donkey Kong
-Mahjong
-Mario Bros.
-Baseball

1984:

-Tennis
-Pinball*
-Wild Gunman
-Duck Hunt*
-Golf
-Nuts & Milk
-Galaxian
-Pac-Man
-Xevious
-Excitebike

1985:

-Balloon Fight
-Galaga
-Yie-Ar Kung Fu (not to be confused with the next game...)
-Kung Fu*
-The Tower of Druaga
-Super Mario Bros.
-Ninja JaJaMaru-kun
-The Portopia Serial Murder Case
-Spelunker
-1942
-Bomberman

1986:

-The Legend of Zelda
-The Mysterious Murasame Castle
-Mighty Bomb Jack
-Gradius
-Dragon Quest
-Star Soldier
-Ghosts 'n Goblins
-Ganbare Goemon: Karakuri Dochu
-Valkyrie no Boken
-Metroid
-Kid Icarus

1987:

-Zelda II
-Dragon Quest II
-Famicom Golf: Japan Course
-The 3-D Battles of World Runner
-Renegade (Nekketsu Koha Kunio-kun)
-Tantei Jinguji Saburo (nowadays known in the West as Jake Hunter)
-Bases Loaded
-Shin Onigashima
-Mega Man
-Final Fantasy

1988:

-Dragon Quest III
-Nobunaga's Ambition
-Famicom Detective Club
-Best Play Pro Baseball
-Super Dodgeball
-Famicom Wars
-Super Mario Bros. 3
-Momotaro Dentetsu
-Ninja Gaiden
-Final Fantasy II

This list definitely has holes (Castlevania being probably the one I can think of that'll resonate the most here) and I don't think it means much of anything in relation to Smash, but nonetheless I think it's incredibly interesting to see a document of what Nintendo considers important games on the system, including third-party stuff.

EDIT: forgot Mega Man lol

this got another update, rest of the timeline has been filled out

Rest of the lineup is as follows:

Spoiler

1989:

-Wagan Land
-River City Ransom
-Famicom Detective Club Part II
-Mother

1990:

-Dragon Quest IV
-Fire Emblem
-Final Fantasy III
-Dr. Mario
-Downtown Nekketsu Koushinkyoku

1991:

-Daikoukai Jidai/Uncharted Waters
-Fortune Street
-Metal Max
-NES Open Tournament Golf
-Yoshi
-Derby Stallion

1992-1994:

-Gimmick!
-Super Mario USA (our Super Mario Bros. 2)
-Kirby's Adventure
-Joy Mech Fight
-Wario's Woods
-Adventure Island IV

 

[chocolatejr9]

this got another update, rest of the timeline has been filled out

Rest of the lineup is as follows:

Spoiler

1989:

-Wagan Land
-River City Ransom
-Famicom Detective Club Part II
-Mother

1990:

-Dragon Quest IV
-Fire Emblem
-Final Fantasy III
-Dr. Mario
-Downtown Nekketsu Koushinkyoku

1991:

-Daikoukai Jidai/Uncharted Waters
-Fortune Street
-Metal Max
-NES Open Tournament Golf
-Yoshi
-Derby Stallion

1992-1994:

-Gimmick!
-Super Mario USA (our Super Mario Bros. 2)
-Kirby's Adventure
-Joy Mech Fight
-Wario's Woods
-Adventure Island IV

Metal Max... I see that name pop up every now and then, but still know next to nothing about it (other than it changes owners like a game of hot potato).

 

[ZephyrZ]

When you think about it, he has a point.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Because that's who Nintendo has the rights to.

Like it seems obvious, but I think people take this "Celebration of Nintendo" vs "Celebration of Gaming" thing too seriously. Smash Bros was originally conceptualized as a new take on the fighting game genre and while its legacy has become more then that, the reason it had Nintendo characters in the first place was because Sakurai and Iwata needed an interesting cast for it and already had connections in Nintendo.

 

[Quillion]

Could this be a good approximation of what Dante could be in Smash?

 

[DarthEnderX]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Because the only man competent enough to make it worked for Nintendo.

 

[Schnee117]

Sakurai's on record as calling Smash a Celebration of Gaming a few times and Sora's reveal was billed as "One Last Celebration of Gaming"

You can consider it a weak celebration given there's loads of characters, games and genres that are missing as a whole but it is still a celebration in spite of lacking those things.

Could this be a good approximation of what Dante could be in Smash?

That's largely just Dante's UMvC3 moveset (so it inherently nails the combo focus) but without Cerberus, Agni & Rudra or Artemis and with a funky looking Devil Trigger. In that regard it's decent but also boring in that it's mostly just something that was done before but with less things (funnily enough, the things you don't really see in comp UMvC3). I appreciate the detail of first showing Rainstorm on the Mementos stage though.

 

[Quillion]

In that regard it's decent but also boring in that it's mostly just something that was done before but with less things (funnily enough, the things you don't really see in comp UMvC3).

I see that as kind of a blessing so that it doesn't move into the usual fan-made Smash moveset territory.

Heck, the limitations imposed by engines and amateur (classical sense) coding knowledge are making a lot of movesets done in fangames and mods better than the ones in the official games IMO.

 

[Idon]

Could this be a good approximation of what Dante could be in Smash?

As a DMC fan, I think it's... fine, maybe a little lacking in the creativity department, being just a translation of his MvC3 self.

I also have a few nitpicks regarding the finer details of his aesthetics, namely the usage of DMC1's design but trying to use DMC3 weapons, his DMC3 voice actor and voicelines, a DMC3 stage, and his main theme from... DMC3. Assuming the Devil Trigger is supposed to be from DMC1, it's quite an ugly design they chose to use and they definitely should've gone with his other DTs.

Credit where it's due, I love the shield-break animation having the sword fly out from his hands and impale Dante. That's an amazingly clever touch that I don't think an official source would do.

I see that as kind of a blessing so that it doesn't move into the usual fan-made Smash moveset territory.

Heck, the limitations imposed by engines and amateur (classical sense) coding knowledge are making a lot of movesets done in fangames and mods better than the ones in the official games IMO.

Well, this is a fanmade game, so I would expect some level of fan-input rather than translating a moveset based from MvC3, which, in and of itself is already a translation of Dante's tools he specifically had in DMC3. If they were going to translate something from a source-material, I would go for the actual source than adapting another interpretation.

 

[Quillion]

Well, this is a fanmade game, so I would expect some level of fan-input rather than translating a moveset based from MvC3, which, in and of itself is already a translation of Dante's tools he specifically had in DMC3. If they were going to translate something from a source-material, I would go for the actual source than adapting another interpretation.

But if that leads to the usual reference-and-gimmick-overload that fan movesets have taken to these days, no thanks. I'm glad that others are becoming more aware of this issue (as seen here and here).

 

[Stratos]

I was thinking about AR Games, if they ever bring Mr. AR as a newcomer in a future Super Smash Bros. game what moves can they put on him but I'm not sure, maybe moves from other games like Duck Hunt (the dog and the duck) do they have moves from their own game as well as two others Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley? I don't know, but if they put a new Adventure Mode I would like one of the bosses to be the AR Dragon.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

When you think about it, he has a point.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Takes like this are proof that Twitter is a waste of time.

—————

So, Pikmin 4 was pretty dang good. While I don’t see us getting Oatchi or a new captain as playable, I would be elated to see it get a stage. There’s so many great stage locations to choose from.

 

[Opossum]

The whole thing with Smash as a "celebration of gaming" is a lot of people consider it all or nothing, like it can't become one if it wasn't one from the start. Brawl was the first of the games to introduce non-Nintendo fighters, and Smash 4 made them more than just the "honorary Nintendo ones (Snake was an exception trust me)." And then we get to Ultimate where most of the DLC characters are third party.

So it's fairly clear that the goal is changing to be more industry-wide. And it has a long way to go before it's truly representative of games as a whole. But that doesn't mean it isn't a start.

But on the other hand I think some people also...miss one of the points a bit? Like a lot of people focus on the three main console manufacturers. And like...two of the three already either have their foot in the door, or are Smash's main event. Microsoft is on board now, and that, in theory, gives them access to the IP stables of several other important companies due to acquisitions. So series like Halo, Gears of War, Fable, The Elder Scrolls, Doom, Wolfenstein (ignoring the obvious goose-stepping issues present), Crash Bandicoot, King's Quest, Candy Crush, Call of Duty, Pitfall, Warcraft, Starcraft, and Overwatch are technically on the table much more so than they would've been before.

So like...do people think getting Sony on board would suddenly remove any obstacles to Smash being called a celebration of gaming? As if they're the one and only holdover?

Because at the end of the day, while Smash is becoming a more all-encompassing celebration of gaming with each addition...there's still a ton missing, and just adding Kratos or Nathan Drake isn't going to automatically get it there. There's a lot more missing than just Sony. Entire genres are missing. There's not a single survival horror series represented with a fighter. The same is true for adventure games, be they the more visual novel styled Japanese ones, or the Western ones from the likes of Sierra, LucasArts, or TellTale. Dr. Mario, a clone, is the only character from a puzzle game. Beat-em-Ups are BAFFLINGLY absent despite Capcom being present. Olimar is the closest thing we have to an RTS character. Mobas are entirely unrepresented unless you want to be cheeky about the Pokémon cast post-Unite. Dark Samus is the only fighter to come from a first person shooter, for god's sake, and that hardly counts as genre representation considering her Echo status. And don't split hairs about Duck Hunt's technicality as a light gun game.

And then there's the issue of so many important companies not having fighters. On the Japanese side, we're missing Koei-Tecmo, Arc System Works (including Technōs), Nihon Falcom, and Marvelous (including the DataEast IPs); all are without fighters. Konami and Square-Enix have fighters, but their very prominent acquisitions in Hudson and Taito, respectively, have nothing in that regard (Taito doesn't have anything, for that matter). Outside of Japan the problem just gets even worse, with Microsoft and Disney being literally the only ones with fighters. Ubisoft, Activision-Blizzard, Bethesda, EA, Bioware, 2K, TellTale, Sierra, LucasArts, Rockstar, Annapurna, Warner Bros (Midway, WB Games, Netherrealm), and CD Projekt Red, to name a few, are all historically or currently prominent developers and publishers who currently have no fighters.

And this isn't even getting into prominent indie franchises; Smash currently has no fighters owned by an independent entity.


-----------

So it's a weird sort of dichotomy. A lot of Smash fans simultaneously act as though Smash can never become more like a celebration of gaming due to not having started as one, while also acting like adding Master Chief and someone from Sony would automatically make it an undeniable one. It's a lot more complicated than that.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Does Sora counts as a licensed video game rep?

 

[fogbadge]

Does Sora counts as a licensed game rep?

in a round about sorta way

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Does Sora counts as a licensed video game rep?

Bottom text.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Yeah, Smash becoming a celebration of gaming is a literal and technically impossibility.

Due to Legal, Financial, Temporal or Resource restraints, there will always be a limit, a cap and the said result will have Smash falling short into failure and will always lead to inevitable dissapointment with many not matter big or small, not matter how ambitious.

Which is why aiming for such a goal is ultimately pointless because it will be a goal that will never realistically reach.

How do you call it a celebration of gaming when there are entire genres missing, companies MIA, franchises no shows. Makes no real sense.

 

[Dukefire]

Sakurai was trying to grant the Dreams and Wishes from many people as possible for Ultimate. In the end, we are all human with our own limits...

For now, I think the Fountain of Dream is still dry after Sora's reveal years ago.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yeah, Smash becoming a celebration of gaming is a literal and technically impossibility.

Due to Legal, Financial, Temporal or Resource restraints, there will always be a limit, a cap and the said result will have Smash falling short into failure and will always lead to inevitable dissapointment with many not matter big or small, not matter how ambitious.

Which is why aiming for such a goal is ultimately pointless because it will be a goal that will never realistically reach.

How do you call it a celebration of gaming when there are entire genres missing, companies MIA, franchises no shows. Makes no real sense.

Well this is...certainly a message to take away from this discussion.

Talk about twisting the narrative. Man.

 

[Sucumbio]

Well this is...certainly a message to take away from this discussion.

Talk about twisting the narrative. Man.

Lol not surprised because honestly it's a discussion that leads down a rabbit hole of "I know you are but what am I ?"

Another more likely possibility is that Smash has always been a celebration of sorts, starting with the population of Nintendo gamers' favorite icons and moving to include as much as possible because references are key to success.

I think Ultimate is the largest expression of this and while we as an audience have grown to see it as a celebration of all video games it's clearly our view. It'd be too bold for anyone from Nintendo to claim they solely provide the end all be all of gaming.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Saying Smash can't ever become a celebration of gaming, or is a failure for trying to do so, feels wrong. Just because it isn't a celebration of every game ever made doesn't mean it isn't still an incredibly successful celebration of gaming in general. Like, this is a game that represents Mario, Pac-Man, Sonic, Minecraft, Street Fighter and Final Fantasy, and that's barely scratching the surface of the represented games with full characters. Nothing else has, or likely could, even come close. Obviously it can never be "complete", but surely that's good? For a constantly evolving series, would you really want it to reach an absolute final limit?

As an example, look at something like Persona Q2 - it is undeniably a great celebration of the persona series, with loads of references, characters, songs, etc. from across the series. But it still doesn't represent all of persona, because that would be completely impossible. So despite it barely referencing P1 and P2, and the spin-offs being completely absent, it still absolutely succeeds as a celebration of Persona. In my opinion, Smash is the exact same.

Or look at Dead By Daylight, which is intentionally a huge celebration of horror, and is still missing loads of iconic films, games, etc., but still works as a celebration of the genre as a whole.

There are around 200 series represented in Ultimate. Not games, series - that genuinely feels like it should be impossible, and even if the vast majority of them aren't represented with a full fighter or stage, they're still in the game, they're still represented.

 

[Oracle Link]

trying to find these suckers is now possible thanks to me:

etc.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

How do you call it a celebration of gaming when there are entire genres missing, companies MIA, franchises no shows. Makes no real sense.

The only genre i can think of that didnt get anything of substance in Ultimate was the Adventure game genre.

Yeah Ayumi got a spirit but that's it.

What i mean by substance is something people will regularly see during gameplay, a playable character/Assist trophy or mii fighter costume btw, most people dont really think about spirits all that much.

 

[Sucumbio]

Maybe they'll release that 64 game Verde Coeden Scalesworth most wanted comes from...

Wait isn't Zelda an Adventure Game?

 

[Speed Weed]

Smash will never be a true celebration of gaming until they add Shiori Fujisaki send tweet

 

[Slime Scholar]

Not sure why the distinction of Smash being a “celebration of gaming” matters. It feels like a backwards way of looking at the character selection process, i.e, deciding what Smash “is” or “should be” and then from there deciding who is “missing” rather than something more intuitive like who would be fun, or have a unique move set, or even something more personal like who do you like.

The only genre i can think of that didnt get anything of substance in Ultimate was the Adventure game genre.

Yeah Ayumi got a spirit but that's it.

What i mean by substance is something people will regularly see during gameplay, a playable character/Assist trophy or mii fighter costume btw, most people dont really think about spirits all that much.

chanting while lightly banging on desk
Phoenix Wright, Phoenix Wright, Phoenix Wright

 

[Gengar84]

I have a feeling Sakurai only decided to call Smash a “celebration of gaming” because they already wanted to start adding more third party characters. I feel like this was mostly to increase sales by appealing to more fans outside of the dedicated Nintendo audience. That’s why I never really put too much stock into that title. Not complaining about third parties at all because they definitely got me excited for the intro trailers and really made speculating more fun. The “celebration of gaming” title to me is more of an afterthought since Smash was starting to introduce more and more third parties anyways.

 

[fogbadge]

i think celebration of gaming is a pretty broad term and could mean many different things. i also think sakurai makes some things up on the spot

 

[SPEN18]

If you ask me, this "celebrate gaming" stuff is a load of nonsense.

The cold fact is that this general gaming mentality only arose as a product of pretty much two things: extended DLC and, insomuch as it ensured that all old 3P characters were brought back, Everyone is Here.

It's clear that they mostly use third parties to milk more money out of the work put into the base game by using their big-name clout to sell standalone add-on packs. In the base game they just add a couple new guests each time, which gives them one more back-of-the-box marketing USP; I would expect a severe diminishing return on sales relative to licensing costs and negotiation efforts if they were to go above their usual rate of new third party content in base. The main exception to this being the all-or-nothing proposition of EiH. Aside from that, Nintendo knows their own big franchises like Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon are more than enough to sell the average Smash game; having a few new guests each time just helps spice things up and differentiate sequels from their predecessors.

 

[Ivander]

The only genre i can think of that didnt get anything of substance in Ultimate was the Adventure game genre.

Yeah Ayumi got a spirit but that's it.

What i mean by substance is something people will regularly see during gameplay, a playable character/Assist trophy or mii fighter costume btw, most people dont really think about spirits all that much.

By Adventure Game Genre and Ayumi from Famicom Detective Club, do you mean Point and Click Adventure? Like Monkey Island or Professor Layton? Cause Adventure Game in general tends to be pretty varied that a number of series in Smash do have Adventure games or have games that can be considered Adventure games.

Smash will never be a true celebration of gaming until they add Shiori Fujisaki send tweet

We already have Fire Emblem to represent that genre.

 

[Speed Weed]

We already have Fire Emblem to represent that genre.

I will kill you

 

[SPEN18]

Guys, imagine Smash 64 but it has 9 Mario characters, 2 Kirby characters because they're Sakurai's babies, and then, like, Captain Falcon for some reason.

Then imagine that we might, and I mean might, get Donkey Kong one day. But you can forget about Link and Pikachu who are universally deemed impossible.

This is like where Smash currently is from a general gaming standpoint.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

By Adventure Game Genre and Ayumi from Famicom Detective Club, do you mean Point and Click Adventure? Like Monkey Island or Professor Layton? Cause Adventure Game in general tends to be pretty varied that a number of series in Smash do have Adventure games or have games that can be considered Adventure games.

We already have Fire Emblem to represent that genre.

Yeah, people who actively play this genre (ie me) tend to just call it Adventure games.

chanting while lightly banging on desk
Phoenix Wright, Phoenix Wright, Phoenix Wright

Yeah he's the most iconic Adventure game protagonist, so it makes sense to use him.

doubt they'd ever use Guybrush since getting ONE Disney character in was probably difficult