Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kirby Dragons]

I've been hard on Toon and Young Link in the past, but I'd be more accepting of them if they had more moveset differences from Link. In Ultimate, the three Links all represent different timelines, which is cool. But they could take better advantage of it. It'd be nice if we could see a bit more of Link's arsenal and abilities throughout the movesets.

 

[Opossum]

While we're on the topic of that 45 veteran roster thing, I'll draft something up. Probably a little controversial, perhaps intentionally so to spur on some conversation outside the usual obligatory influence of relevance or seniority, but this is less influenced by what I think is realistic and more by my own preference. Maintaining a diverse spread of playstyles, keeping things relatively proportional (assume that some series like Fire Emblem would be getting a new character... I would have thrown Ike in here but I didn't really want to remove anyone else) but not letting some of those more arbitrary things get in the way of flavorful characters standing their ground.

View attachment 398830

-Yes, I cut Villager. Nothing personal but I prefer Isabelle and in a crunched roster like this I think they play a little samey. Tom Nook is def being added anyway.
-I cheated and I'm counting Pyra / Mythra as one. Sorry. I couldn't justify it for Pokemon Trainer though, at least Pyra / Mythra are semiclones.
-K. Rool, Palutena, Falco, Jigglypuff, Incineroar etc are "flavor" picks. They're all individually popular, unique, and I think they contribute a dynamic presence.
-In Jigglypuff's case, with Pokemon Trainer being cut loose, I thought it was necessary to have a "cute" Pokemon other than Pikachu.
-Min-Min gets to stay because ARMS is the newest series on the roster right now. I don't want to be too regressive with contemporary representation.
-Sephiroth sticks around, idk. He's too cool! And feels right if I wanted to bump up Sonic and Street Fighter which I probably would.

-Characters I may have added with more space or just a slightly different mindset would be Ike, Ice Climbers and Wii Fit Trainer.

Honestly pretty close to what I'd do for a 45 veteran roster. There's a few I'd personally swap out (I'd drop for ) and if I really had full control, also swap Ness for Lucas and Robin for Chrom, but as a general frame of reference we're very similar. Snake vs Simon is a tough one for me though lol. Obviously there are some tough cuts still, but some would be alleviated by newcomers like you said (in my case, Edelgard would shore up Fire Emblem's lack of a Three Houses character while we'd definitely get an Animal Crossing newcomer to make the lack of Villager less egregious...K.K. is my preference here but Nook is fine too). I'd probably also do an entirely reworked Mii as a newcomer but beyond that I think the bases are mostly covered.

Over all one of the more agreeable post-cuts veteran rosters.

 

[fogbadge]

You know, the likes of Ultimate had no cuts, meaning no cuts from even Smash 4 were done. I am thinking after two games with no cuts, I think we might see a lot more cuts than usual due to Everyone is Here and all that. I think we'll see a lot of cuts in the form of a combination of Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers, as well as the games before, of course, you know what I mean?

sort of. I have often wondered if any of smash 4’s newcomers only carme back because everyone is here but there’s no way of knowing. Then again sakurai said he had decided straight away that’s what he wanted to do so he probably never considered any of them for cutting. Guess he may have to know

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

sort of. I have often wondered if any of smash 4’s newcomers only carme back because everyone is here but there’s no way of knowing. Then again sakurai said he had decided straight away that’s what he wanted to do so he probably never considered any of them for cutting. Guess he may have to know

I see, though what I was trying to say that with no cuts between Smash 4 and Ultimate, there may be more cuts than we imagine, including characters from games like Brawl, Melee and maybe 64, especially if there are 45 veterans only like what we are talking about.

 

[fogbadge]

I see, though what I was trying to say that with no cuts between Smash 4 and Ultimate, there may be more cuts than we imagine, including characters from games like Brawl, Melee and maybe 64, especially if there are 45 veterans only like what we are talking about.

yeah the biggest roster ever could easily lead to the most cuts ever

 

[Dinoman96]

I see, though what I was trying to say that with no cuts between Smash 4 and Ultimate, there may be more cuts than we imagine, including characters from games like Brawl, Melee and maybe 64, especially if there are 45 veterans only like what we are talking about.

Pretty much everyone in this thread was already expecting like 40 cuts and a 50-60 character roster at most for the next game anyways.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Pretty much everyone in this thread was already expecting like 40 cuts and a 50-60 character roster at most for the next game anyways.

Yeah, that makes sense. So much sense, as a matter of fact. I'd think even a quarter of Ultimate's roster being cut would be too little.

yeah the biggest roster ever could easily lead to the most cuts ever

No doubt about that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Personally I think 45 is a little too low when it comes to veterans. I'm expecting about 50-53 vets in a new game.

That along with ten or so newcomers and a new gameplay hook seems to be a successful formula in my eyes.

 

[ninjahmos]

A roster of 45-53 veterans seems reasonable enough for the next game, because it feels bigger than Smash 4 but smaller than Ultimate.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

A roster of 45-53 veterans seems reasonable enough for the next game, because it feels bigger than Smash 4 but smaller than Ultimate.

Oh yeah, I concur. I honestly could see that many characters out of those from Ultimate return.

Though I think some of the characters predicted to be cut may not easily be cut, and I think there may be some surprise cuts nobody predicted, which does not include those like Mario, of course.

 

[BrawlX10]

sort of. I have often wondered if any of smash 4’s newcomers only carme back because everyone is here but there’s no way of knowing. Then again sakurai said he had decided straight away that’s what he wanted to do so he probably never considered any of them for cutting. Guess he may have to know

That's pretty much, we don't know anything about the next game, we don't even know if it's going to be deluxe or smash 6. We really have no way to know exactly whos getting cut and who's staying (well besides the obvious like mario or link), we can just maked guesses based on personal gut guesses and patterns, this is what makes Smash 4 and Ult vets a bit harder to predict as well as we have no previous game were cuts happened for them. As long people are respectful with other peoples choices, then yeah, it's just a hypotetical.

Personally I think 45 is a little too low when it comes to veterans. I'm expecting about 50-53 vets in a new game.

That along with ten or so newcomers and a new gameplay hook seems to be a successful formula in my eyes.

50 veterans and 12 newcomers would be cool to me. They could focus on bring veterans back as DLC as we'll have a good amount of newcomers in the base game already (12), like something like 9 veterans and 4 newcomers as DLC would be fine in this scenario to me.

 

[SharkLord]

Is this more of a "what I would do" roster like mine, or is it a prediction?

I don't want to critique too hard if it's just the former, although if it's the latter I'm struck by the absence of Ryu and either Snake / Simon. I think removing all three fighting game characters is uncalled for and Street Fighter has more of a presence in Smash and influence on the roster than practically any other third party in the game. I spoke on this the other day but Ryu essentially introduced a brand new archetype into Smash that has been iterated on twice already. Cutting it loose off shaky Nintendo connection doesn't feel justified. As for the Konami guys, I really just think this community undersells Konami for no reason. They've proven themselves one of the most cooperative participants and are easily one of the most massive Japanese companies available... Smash 4 is one thing, but there's nothing in the present that signifies to me that Nintendo and Konami won't continue to be best buds.

Palutena is an understandable cut if push comes to shove (iirc she was on your roster at some point, and you swapped her for Little Mac or something? If it has to be one or the other then you made the right choice here lol) but if Star Fox will be a two character series I think it would be odd if Krystal was one of those characters. I like her but over both Falco AND Wolf is a bold move in this instance of not-quite-a-reboot-but-toys-with-being-one. I think to justify a big status quo change like that the roster would need to change quite a bit more. Does that make sense, I dunno.

And uhh... oh right, I don't actually think Villager has any reason to be cut, I just think they have a fair bit of functional overlap with Isabelle and I consider her to be a strongly viable character to represent the series on her own. So just for the sake of crunching down my roster it was easy for me to do... in a prediction roster, it would actually be a pretty stupid thing to do for the reasons you mentioned and more.

At the end of the day I know we've all only got so much space. But I feel like these are at least viable things to keep in mind. You have a lot of newcomers so I feel like shedding off two or three to make some extra veteran accommodations wouldn't be too bad.

Mostly a personal choice roster, though I wanted to keep it at least semi-plausible. The first roster I made was basically a Switch-based reboot with a bias towards newcomers, but over time I started adding in more veterans and older characters and by now it looks like a pretty standard roster prediction. You're right that I dropped Palutena for Little Mac; I realized Punch-Out was the only franchise beyond the "retro" games that lacked any fighter at all, so I should probably bring him back. Krystal added because she did well on Swamp's prediction poll, though looking back on it, Falco's enough of a mainstay that they'd probably prioritize him over a Star Fox newcomer.

For Ryu, I think I already mentioned I was treating third-parties more as guests and limiting their presence. That said, you raise a pretty good argument regarding him setting the "mechanically unusual fighting game character" archetype. For Konami, I think it's that their series just aren't as active nowadays. They're not dead - MGS3 is getting a remake, Castlevania gets port collections and crossovers up the wazoo - But they aren't getting any major new installments lately, leading to a sort of recency bias

...Though, you could say the same about Mega Man, so that argument loses some of its credibility. You could argue Mega Man's a bigger series overall, or was a bigger request, or was added first but he's also been dormant for a while.

This talk's been making me wonder just how many newcomers we'll be getting overall. On average, Smash gets about 10-20 newcomers, including clones. But if we're aiming for a 60-fighter roster going off of a game that finished with 89 fighters overall, that's gonna be a bit of a squeeze. My roster favored newcomers, but I'm starting to wonder how realistic that is when veterans will be in such high demand. Maybe I'll try one of those 45-veteran roster setups.

 

[Golden Icarus]

45 veterans? Okay yeah why not I'll give it a try...

*If PT isn't allowed, then imagine it's just Charizard. And if Pyra/Mythra isn't allowed...then I'd cut them for Ike lol

This definitely showcases what I want more than what I would expect, but I also feel this is a decently realistic compromise if the roster really did end up being cut this heavily. My third party choices are probably the most questionable to people, since it's difficult to judge characters that are included under such unique circumstances. Most people agree on Mega Man, Sonic, Cloud, Pac-Man and Ryu being towards the top of the list. Beyond that, I respect Snake's legacy as a Smash character, I think Sephiroth being the most popular villain ever makes him uniquely desirable, and I like Terry as an underdog that you might not expect to return, but is definitely popular enough to justify. Steve and Hero both feel obvious, as DQ and Minecraft are so massive, but I'd sooner prioritize characters who are particularly beloved beyond the games they represent.

Also - even if we're cutting down to just 30 characters there is no way in hell that I'd let go of Ridley or K. Rool after waiting so long for them to be included lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pokemon Trainer is counted as 3 characters in Smash, as are Pyra and Mythra counted as 2. So yeah, they count as 5 veterans all together.

That said, for a few series;

• Star Fox: Fox is a given, but it'll be Falco if it's not reduced to 1 character.
• Animal Crossing: Villager and Isabelle are not going to be cut at all.
• Fire Emblem: Marth and Ike are an absolutely given, and Lucina is by proxy. The rest are a bit more non-obvious. They might reduce them massively. That said, Roy wasn't meant to be cut, so naturally Chrom is in a good position as long as his counterpart stays. It's nowhere near as big of a series in terms of characters as Super Mario, so it's less simple. Especially since it has more clones and it's not the "big kahuna" of series either in the same way.
• Super Mario: There's a lot of characters who could be cut. The usual 4(Mario, Luigi, Bowser, and Peach) are guaranteed, and outside of them cutting all the clones too, Daisy and Dr. Mario have no real chance of being cut nowadays(the latter since he was never supposed to be cut anyway. Being easy to make but still requiring more work than an Echo while also providing a moveset Mario cannot helps too). Rosalina & Luma isn't likely to be cut, but Bowser Jr. could be due to the work required. Piranha Plant could go either way, and actually uses some of the coding that Bowser Jr. does, but has less models to work with, so may be easier to keep, funnily enough.
• The Legend of Zelda: Other than the normal 5, it's just a matter of what child Link they would rather keep. Both have their own merits. That said, the latest variation of Link is mostly used to represent Link's Awakening, who is the same person as ALTTP. Young Link's overall design is somewhat based upon the more classic Link from games like ALTTP too, so it's quite possible he could be redesigned. Caveat is that since it's a massive change, it'd be a fourth total Link anyway since they aren't proportionally similar enough to work as a model update.
  • It's also the most likely if not only model change we'd get. Sheik makes sense as is. Link already represents the Wild era pretty well(and even plays too differently from the earlier Link to be the only one). Zelda is entirely too different to be changed to the Wild era, and Ganondorf already has a clear design that doesn't warrant changing. He's however able to more easily have costumes based upon the Wild era at least, since they don't mess with his overall model shape. This doesn't actually mean he'd necessarily get gloom changes, though. Just references. Keeping in mind that Link was the only one to be actually updated to the latest games purely, it's not to be expected for all characters. Especially as they never followed that style. Sure, it seems like it at first in Brawl, but they made it clear in Ultimate it's actually a specific direction for the general Link design. The rest go to whatever Sakurai feels best represent the character and their abilities.
• Pokemon: Pikachu is a guarantee. It goes a bit crazy beyond that. Jigglypuff is easier to make than some, and Pichu while boasting the same, isn't as heavily popular in comparison. Incineroar could go either way, and Lucario is definitely coming back. Mewtwo I would say so too, but it's been a case where they aren't as high priority these days. Greninja is not unlike Incineroar, and Pokemon Trainer pretty much is "all three at once, possibly Charizard, or none". The thing with PT is all can be justified. The amount of work required is high, but they're also really well-designed nowadays, and Charizard eclipses the other two in popularity anyway. So no matter what direction it goes, it's not a big deal.

Side note: No Echo will ever stay instead of their counterpart. It completely goes against their point and makes no sense. While none are outright safe in itself, Richter and Simon were designed together and they're extremely likely to come together as well if they return. Daisy has no real chance of a cut either. Ken is the only way who's a bit interesting, but that's due to being more difficult to make than the other Echoes. Despite that, he's also still a fairly similar character in playstyle, so the difficulty is easy to exaggerate. He's like other clones; pretty likely to stay, unless all clone types are cut. Another Street Fighter character coming in has no real effect on Ken staying or not.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Why though there's literally nothing you can do with him that wouldn't just be bigger evil captain falcon

Dude, literally in the video he is showing that there is more you can do with him than just be a bigger Falcon.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't think Black Shadow works with Ganondorf's moveset mainly because F-Zero characters should be defined by speed. I mean, baybe you could get away with not doing that if they've got something else going on (like Samurai Goroh) but if we're giving him Captain Falcon's moveset...Black Shadow should definitely have a different take on it than Captain Falcon, but his relationship with it should be the focus. Like, maybe he has some sort of momentum mechanic going on and his speed increases the longer he dashes. Maybe he gets tough guy that scales with how fast he's moving so his top speed armors through anything that isn't a killing back air or something.

These could be dumb ideas, but I think he'd need something like that to fit in with Captain Falcon as an F-Zero rep rather than just being Ganondorf's leftovers.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why though there's literally nothing you can do with him that wouldn't just be bigger evil captain falcon

Welp, time to play Devil's Advocate here...

Falcon's moveset is entirely made up. Who's to say **** can't be made up for Black Shadow too?

The bull charge special on that video is a great example that plays with his design and is something that wouldn't look all that great on Falcon, making it distinctly a Black Shadow thing.